Brian McLaren – Propaganda and the Worship Industry
I think Brian brings up a GREAT question/discussion. But I also think he is not giving any answers. Just raising questions. I feel like you could replace the words “Worship Industry” with the words “Emergent Church Industry” and have the same discussion.
My thoughts…
Yours?
Los
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RAIN IT DOWN
I’m cool with it – put anything else in there and you can say the same thing, which might be a sign of something else whacked out about our culture and how very little of what we do has any realy integrity.
I’m a “just raising questions” kind of guy. Good questions should lead to good answers, which I’ve found lead to better questions, so I’m good with it. Some part of “all this” needs to remain a mystery, and if we can spend some time wasting brain cells on the things we don’t know but think are really cool and good, I think that’s ok.
‘Course you can’t market worship even if you want to. Worship isn’t a product. What’s marketed is music, songs, whatever, and people can use those things to enter into worship or they can just listen to the music and have a taco. Worship doesn’t happen during production, and there is no worship on the CD. Worship happens only when I connect with God.
An artist should be paid for his/her labor. I can’t see how that is wrong. There’s this stupid phrase called “selling out” that’s used when an artist gets popular with the main stream. As far as I’m concerned THAT’s the propaganda. Just shut up and listen. If you like it, cool. If not, don’t whine about it. Get on with your life.
What really disturbs me is the part about putting pressure on worship leaders to make worship happen. It’s like the guy who stops going to a church because he “doesn’t get fed.” I want to say, “What? You were right there at the buffet and you didn’t eat? What a knucklehead!” It’s not the band’s responsibility to put me into a state of worship. I’m not a robot. I choose. I worship with or without a band.
Maybe we confuse worship with an emotional frenzy. The music gets me worked up and I mix that with a couple of thoughts about God and now I’m worshiping. If it doesn’t move me it’s the leaders fault, like he forgot the words or something. We just need to grow up.
I think I got off the subject.
Pressure? I’m not feeling any pressure.
What does he want us to do….perform art and tell people to take it or leave it? Our responsibility is to teach worship, to engage the congregant, to call them out to worship.
Worship isn’t art to me….it’s a relationship with God. Maybe the music is art. Maybe Brian doesn’t know the difference between music and worship. Poor him.
Wow. Interesting piece, and some intriguing comments already…
I can on board w/ where he’s going re: “I didn’t get fed” or “I didn’t have that ‘feeling’ or whatever.
Seems to me that lots of folks (myself included) get wrapped up in putting US at the center of worship (what did I get, how did I feel, etc) rather than GOD.
We seem to do a lot to make things easy, comfortable, etc.
I am not sure what I think about all that. I keep coming back to David’s example in 2 Samuel 24:21-24. “…I will not sacrifice to the LORD my God burnt offerings that cost me nothing….”
What does that mean, for me as a worship leader, and for the folks in the seats on Sunday?
Haven’t figured that all out yet.
Les – I used to have tacos after worship, but now that I am in Ohio, there are no good tacos…
I think this discussion is bigger than the “worship machine.”
The fact is too many of us are looking for an experience or an emotion or goosebumps in worship that make us feel good and “feel” close to the Lord. Instead, our eyes should focus on simply glorifying and loving God. We often think worship was good if WE felt it rather than show Jesus how we feel about HIM.
Worship leaders, at least the good ones, ought to do their best to play good music, provide good environments, and plan it all well. The good ones know this isn’t to manufacture the power of the Spirit, its designed to assist distracted human beings get our hearts, mind, and beings focused on God as a body. There’s nothing wrong with that.
On a side note- Do people really rate the presence of the Holy Spirit in worship on a 1-10 scale as Brian suggests? If so, that’s absolutely pathetic.
I understood and I agree with everything he said in that video and I think that is right on…in fact I believe the Matt spoke about something like that in the “worship” series last year. Sometimes you will have a high and sometimes you won’t, its not a product it’s what you do. I admit sometimes I want to hysterically cry at worship and sometimes I just sing along.
I think the “Christian” community does put alot of pressure on the leaders to make them feel that high. Jeremy Pickwell, you have it right, I’m so glad you don’t feel that pressure, God gave you a gift and you don’t let that pressure in the way of God’s work.
Worship is God’s work not the leader, He just uses the leaders to help Him get to us…that warm and tingly feeling? Yea it’s HIM!!!
Good questions?
I think he is right about “industry” and how we worship leaders operate. Most worship leaders are NOT artists, since if they were, they would have the highest suicide rate. Worship leaders today have to be great cover band leaders who recreate an experience from a Passion or United Live event, or the last concert the the congregation experienced. If you were to create something original, that would require risk. You would risk having your music, paintings, worship order, etc. rejected or worse. Your pastor would have to actually work with you and even care what art is. So, it is much safer to simply cover Tomlin and pretend it is art. Right?
When did worship become “music”?
Good for brodyHarper. That’s the point. I bring my worship to church with me. I don’t go there to get it. Los is not giving me worship or even inspiring worship in me. It’s already there. I don’t really “get” the “Worship Leader” title falling on just the music guy. After Los leads me in worship, Matt comes up and leads me in worship. Yeah, I’m following them for a couple of hours in the harmony of fellowship, but when I leave I’m still in worship. I brought it with me, I take it with me when I leave. Worship is between God and me, His gift, my duty and privilege.
I’m worshiping while I eat that taco too. That’s communion. Except in Ohio. I really feel bad for you Tony. I couldn’t live that far from Mexican food. Can’t do it.
OK….I can’t watch that on my puter at work, but I read his “W” page.
it’s almost a soapbox issue for me, so I’ll leave it alone here.
I think I’m more along the lines of the X3 Church guys. “Anything short of sin to get the word of Jesus out there.” But McLaren is a little difficult for me to handle at times.
later….my brain hurts
“Worship”, “music”, “tacos” – semantics…
Take “worship” out of the equation and just call it the church industry if that makes the discussion easier.
Does the church exist to bring glory to GOD, or to meet our needs as church members?
Is the service (or programs or whatever) there so that I can have a place to meet with other believers and join together in glorifying GOD, and in learning more about HIM through HIS WORD, or is it there to meet my needs, and to “fill me up”?
Doesn’t it exist to do both?
McLaren DOES seem a little smug here. I think his “propaganda” angle is somewhat of a straw man. The actual “marketing” of God is a trivial target compared to all that needs to get done.
There is definitely a hunger we have created in the “worship consumer” for emotionally heightened experiences. That in turn puts pressure on us to create a worthy product…he used the words “whip them into a frenzy”…I have felt that pressure.
I think that the “trying” to get people to experience God comes a close second to trying to experience God yourself. But Brian is saying that even if your experience sucks, you should worship Him the same. Agreed. But why have good music then? Even if the music is not aimed at Christ, and I go to a show, I actually am being led emotionally. To say that we should not try and create emotional direction with our music is like saying he should not try and sway with his teaching.
i agree that some are making the worship leader one who has to make it everything to everyone at times and people dont realize that it is God and not the person not only when one is speaking His word or singing it….its not about that at all its what God wants….therefore we should thirst and hunger anything of Him even if its something you have already heard or sang thats not the point…
I hear what Los is saying. Music is spiritual. I think it was McLaren, maybe Bell, that said that Music is Spiritual and if it is good, it will point you in the direction of God. This is how as a Christian we can go to Coldplay and feel drawn to Christ through lyrics that do not necessarily speak to Christ. For a non-Christian good music won’t necessarily point to Christ, but it will point. With that said… I do agree that a Leader of Music does have a responsibility to provide an atmosphere that points to Christ. And for me, atmosphere does include emotions.
Les – “Doesn’t it exist to do both?”
Great question. It could. But what’s the primary goal?
I think that’s where the rub is, for me. When the primary goal of church or worship or whatever term we want to use (for me) is to get my needs met… that’s where it gets cloudy.
Do I worship GOD for who HE is, or for what I get?
Worship is our Response to God For Who He is and what he has done in our lives. – Louie G
I think what he says in the video is great. It did make me think a little about how we do worship – which is good. It does no harm to evaluate yourself and your motives every now and again.
It’s one thing to question the way “I” do worship. It’s another thing to question the way others do worship. We are to worship IN spirit and in truth. The form is not the most relevant aspect of worship. What matters is whether or not God is glorified. To call worship “art” seems dangerous. The way someone else worships is a “disputable matter” and is best left alone…ignored if you will. Romans 16:17 admonishes the church to be wise about divisive and deceptive people. I think I’ll listen to Paul and just keep away.
I agree, always stick with the hurd, you can’t go wrong.
I feel the need to write up a summary of points after reading all that….and I think I will.
In regards to worship:
-it’s really between the individual and God, but is more easily seen when done in community(aka church)
-worship is anything that focuses your attention on God and His glory
-a worship leader may have a responsibility to create a distraction-free evironment and lead the congregation in emotions and thoughts, but it’s not up to them to get you to do it
-David praised God and thanked Him for discipline and Paul sang hymns in prison with rats nibbling on his toes, so we should definitely be worshipping even when(especially when?) we’re at our lowest points and don’t feel like doing anything.
In regards to church:
-the definition= a group of believers joining together to Worship and grow together in Christ
-Both criteria should be met
-Worship has been discussed
-”Growing together” involves many, if not all, aspects of a believer’s life
–communal worship
–meals with other believers
–discussions about God and church (such as this disscussion here)
–helping other believers through tough times(spiritual, physical, emotional, etc.)
–seeking help when needed
-All of these things (and more) constitute the church and how it grows stronger relationships with eachother and with God.
-Both worship of God and meeting needs are needed equally and, I honestly don’t think they should be seperate.
I think old BM is right.
Everyone needs a good BM…
aren’t you BM too, bryon?
haha.
anne: you think i came up with that all on my own? i’ve heard more “BM” jokes than i dare to remember… good eye
Tony:
Totally. I get it. My needs only really get met when I completely focus on Him. Los creates a great lens through which to focus. Here’s the best thing about Los. When he’s not there, that band still rocks the rafters loose. I miss him when he’s not there but only because I miss HIM. Personally. He’s put together a band in the spirit of God that doesn’t lose its edge when the leader’s away. I think its because they all know that Christ is the leader. They follow Him. And, of course, He’s got some great chops.