Don’t Try And Change The World…
As Christians, it isn’t our job to change the world. It is our job to create culture.
-Jon Tyson
Discuss.
Los
As Christians, it isn’t our job to change the world. It is our job to create culture.
-Jon Tyson
Discuss.
Los
RAIN IT DOWN
Amen.
In general I agree with this, but here is maybe a different view on this.
There is already culture happening and for us to create culture, means we are separating ourselves in a way that could create a Christian bubble. Your either in or out.
I think it is Christians attempting to create culture that has created this bubble and it has lead to a them vs. us mentality.
I don’t think we should be creating a culture for people to join, but instead we should loving differently and in a way so as to affect the culture that is around us.
Go into the world and give them the gospel. Then let the culture around us be transformed into what God desires it to be.
I think you can make a christian culture by loving others like Christ did. It’s not a bubble, but a body of believers. When they all come together and many are added and it grows, yea, I guess you could call that a culture. What is it that people usually do, they adapt to their culture and society. If ours is Christ, then hopefully others will follow when they see the personal, loving nature of Christ and adapt.
I agree Jesse. I guess my point is. Do we create for people to come to, or do we go and change what’s already there.
Culture = The behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group
Our culture is to be one that loves like Jesus.
Sub-Culture = a group having social, economic, ethnic, or other traits distinctive enough to distinguish it from others within the same culture or society.
The Christian Sub-Culture or bubble exists within the larger culture, or the greater calling.
I totally agree. We have to create the larger culture and see what grows within it too
Great job inWorship. In a sense, I would say the opposite of Jon’s statement is true.
Culture is just a means of engage people. I can connect with the people on this board because we share a similar language, thought process, symbolism set, etc. I would have a much more difficult time connecting with an elder from an Amazonian tribe, because we have very different cultures.
Our job isn’t to change culture or to even create a new one. Our job is to effectively use the culture we find ourselves in to engage people (build relationships), thus allowing God to change them.
Jesus already created our culture, the Kingdom culture, check it out in the Sermon on the Mount. (Matthew 5, 6, 7)
I wish someone – anyone – would define “culture” for me. it’s become a buzzword without meaning …for me.
It is our job to create culture in essence that the culture will change the world.
I think our job is to be who God created us to be. When we live that out, God uses our areas of influence to create environments/culture where people desire to know who God created them to be.
I agree with Shaun because culture is just so hard to define. It seems like we already have a culture in place fueled by media, trends etc so what is culture???
maybe i’m stating the obvious that everyone is already agreeing to..it’s our job to love God with everything we have and love our neighbor as much as we love ourselves.
God knows that will change the world and create culture.
It’s our job to love the people of the world. If we have to create something called a culture to make that happen, ok, just as long as we(me)don’t sit around reading other Christians blogs instead of being jesus to the world. That may even mean dying for them…
Does it make more sense if we use the (Zach’s) definition of the word in a Christian context in the quote….
“As Christians, it isn’t our job to change the world. It is our job to create (a social group that believes in and loves like Jesus).”
I would say that is a true statement. I think where we sometimes get into trouble is various Sub-Cultures that pop up within the Christian culture. Again, Zach’s definition of Sub-Culture = a group having social, economic, ethnic, or other traits distinctive enough to distinguish it from others within the same culture or society. Not all Sub-Cultures can be bad, but some of them may separate themselves enough as to appear exclusive instead of inclusive regardless of whether they really are or not.
Remember, to the non-believer – reality is what they perceive and nothing else.
By creating a culture aren’t we inevitably changing the world?
If by culture we mean the “Christian” and often sub-par subculture that is so rampant these days I couldn’t agree less. If we mean culture that is real, authentic, approachable, and engaging in non-threatening and non-religious ways that is full of passion and quality, then yeah, go for it.
But if that is the culture we are referring to, I think it will have a significant impact on the world.
I will make an assumption and say that the quote is speaking to creating culture outside of the church.
Point being…
While I was in Uganda, the kids in the slums, in Uganda, on the other side of the world, knew who michael scofield was when they saw a 2 second clip of “Prison Break”. They know who Ludicrous is.
I think the point of the quote is that we, as Christians, need to be creating this media and culture that the world is inhaling and that is the tube that fuels the ideals of our world.
Los
totally agree with this, culture created within the church is such a cop out, we need to go beyond the walls of church and be the leaders in government, schools, business, music, films and the arts etc etc etc
hey Los (and other readers of course), would love to know your thoughts on this post
http://www.supersimbo.net/2008/02/onerepublic.html
ally
It would be more compelling if the quote were attributed to Jesus.
I think that, in the simplist form, creating culture is changing the world. It just then becomes a matter of good change or bad change.
Totally disagree. Our problem as the American church is that we try to separate the two.
I think Jesus’ message about the Kingdom of God was that we are supposed to play a role in changing the world by making the world the kind of place God wants it to be. “Your kingdom come, your will be done on Earth as it is in heaven”. We play an active role in that when we proclaim Jesus message of good news to the poor, freedom to the captive, healing of the broken, and the end of oppression. I dont see how its possible for this to happen without us changing, and if a lot of “us”es change, then culture inevitably changes as well.
This reminds me of the book, “Roaring Lambs”. We’re called to be the salt of the earth. Salt adds flavor; so as Christians, we’re called to add flavor to our world.
I would use the word “influence” rather than “create”. I think it’s our job to influence culture as Christians.
i believe as Christians we’re called to flee from culture and create our own. we need to get as far from those dirty pagans as we can. that’s why i’m so glad that we have Christian radio and televison. i would much rather watch bad acting and poor production than hear dirty words or satanic rock and roll music. this is why i try to make sure that i don’t have any friends who aren’t Christians. i’m really hoping that one day we can get a big enough group of Christians together to buy our own country and all move there, so that we won’t have to be around worldly things anymore and we can all be happy.
Maybe I am a moron, but that makes no sense to me.
I disagree mostly, but am struggling to understand what that means. I think its another example of someone trying to be clever or profound, for the sake of being clever or profound.
Was the great commission “culture?” I don’t think so. And for those who say, “you just don’t get it,” you are correct. Hey overthinkers, try speaking plainly.
right on the money! right on!!! great quote.
love the Lord your God with all your heart, and love one another and you wold love yourself.
let’s pay more attention to jesus, and less attention to the latest books, trends and christianese language.
I have a great question…
“How’s that working for you? And your next door neighbor”
Maybe we should just pray harder?
Then all move to the island with Ryan.
Kidding. So was he.
So to speak plainly…
How are you changing the world for His name’s sake?
great discussion.
Let’s keep discussing while trying to agree to disagree.
Words…
“…love one another as you would love yourself…”
hey c just sponsored a boy from uganda
Ivan Adriko (UG4270121)
Birthday: June 26, 2002
Age: 5
Gender: Male
Region: Africa
Country: Uganda
Program: Neema Child Development Centre
question: what does that mean?
i’m having hard time trying marry the past “culture” that the church has (already) created – i.e. mediocre music; t-shirts; schools; etc. – and the one he is talking about. what does actually mean to create culture if it’s not the aforementioned examples? help me out! it’s a cool quote, but it feels empty of meaning.
DEREK
I think that is the point. We need to be making better art than the “world” to our Irish friends comment above.
agreed.
but no more christian coffee houses!
or write-ups like: “If you like Green Day, then this christian band from Indiana will rock your world”
or GodPods
oh, and GodTube
and the king of all that Jesus hates: Testamints candy
dude, sometimes its enough trying to change myself!
If you are responding with the “Let’s follow Jesus and not the latest buzz trend word flashy thing” try to remember that this statement was part of a 40-ish minute talk that Jon gave a couple of weeks ago. I’m sure that it’s one of his familiar talks and has said the same thing to groups of leaders all over the place.
Don’t get caught up in just thinking that this is Mr. Tyson’s mantra – that he is asking Christians and artists who are Christians to abandon the teachings and understandings of Jesus as it relates to engaging and interacting with the world around them.
The tension is here – for centuries society looked to the church for the finest in art, music, education and “culture” (whatever that means, says Shaun) but we’ve allowed every philosophy EXCEPT for that which Christ preached to be the filter through which society understands itself.
Jon’s comment was more of a challenge to Christians and artists who are Christians to reclaim their role as creators – or co-creators or even re-creators – of culture. His intent is to inspire those of us who are inspired by the Divine to reflect that divinity through art – not to simply produce art as a reflection of what culture is already (mass-) producing.
correct me if i’m wrong… wouldn’t creating a culture that truly loved and followed Jesus change the world?
What am I doing to change the world?
On a large scale, not much.
Personally, I’m trying to read everything I can get my hands on that addresses some of the problems out there – namely poverty and oppression. The End of Poverty, Banker to the Poor, even heathen books like Everything Must Change. I’m trying to watch challenging movies like blood diamond, hotel rwanda, city of god (id consider these great art and culture). Hopefully God can use the activist part of me to do something.
I’m trying to recycle and do other things to take good care of the earth and am trying to give God all the time I can for inward healing/renewal/transformation.
I think the church can and should lead the way on righting what’s wrong, and sometimes it involves government and politics and whole systems and is messy, but is probably well worth it.
On a p
Not sure what “on a p” means but im sure it’s profound…
Sorry, I think its lame – nothing against you (obviously – LOVE you guys) but this quote is part of kind of namby-pamby, pseudo-intellectual, self-satisfied, me-centered Christianity crap… Jesus told us what our job was as Christians and it was to serve radically, give radically, and above all love radically. Once we’ve mastered that then we can talk about its higher meaning. First we’ve got to do it.
I like the quote but I think that it shouldn’t end there. My experience is Christian culture is too comfortable with taking being entertained. It shouldn’t be so clickish.
“Culture” for a society is analogous to “operating system” for a computer.
For a Christian, “creating culture” means that we are on a completely different “operating system”. Like it says in Colossians, we have been transferred from the Kingdom of Darkness to the Kingdom of His Beloved Son.
WOW!! A lot of great comments, here’s one from an old lady. How does anyone expect to change the world or culture or anything for that matter if they aren’t making changes within themselves. Being a “real” Christian,…Being real with ourselves, with others and with God, these are the things that being a christian is and being that kind of Christian is what causes change in the world and in culture but in my walk it starts and ends with who I am and choose to be, in God. If I am not aloowing God to change me I will not be any kind of effective change maker anywhere for God.
Read Future Church by Jim Wilson ….Future churches neither criticize culture nor adapt to it. Future churches leverage culture to the gospels advantage.there are critical fulcrum points the church must locate in order to remain effective in the post modern, post-seeker,post-christian age.
Coincidence…
Just came home after listening to this author on the radio…his book:
Our Culture, What’s Left of It: The Mandarins and the Masses By Theodore Dalrymple
“…Dalrymple’s bracingly clearsighted view of the human condition. … Theodore Dalrymple is the best doctor-writer since William Carlos Williams. –Peggy Noonan.”
I came in thinking that I must read this book !!
Thanks for tossing the topic out there.Lots to think about.
my comment about Jesus rather than trends was not a bash on the quoted Tyson, rather a comment me as result of hearing one too many intellectual reinterpretations of what ’s wrong with the world, and how we can fix it. it’s totally boring and totally off track. If it works for Mother Theresa then cool, if it’s white boy christianese then count me out. I stopped going to christian bookstores a long time ago.
Um, Why the heck would our job be to “create culture”? I don’t get that.
Our job is to love God and really love people.
I think we get easily distracted when we over analyze and make it something more complicated (”creating culture”).
It’s actually much, much harder (and simpler) to love God and love people.
Great discussion.
I think to David’s point, we are called to do exactly what David is stating FIRST. I wonder though, where the line of the definition lies as to when we have achieved those things. Is it at that point that we engage into the devices that are reaching at a much faster pace than our local churches are?
Martin Luther King Jr., said to friend Andrew Young:
Andy, I think the Good Samaritan is a great individual. I of course, like and respect the Good Samaritan….but I don’t want to be a Good Samaritan.” Dr. King continued, “…you see Andy, I am tired of picking up people along the Jericho Road. I am tired of seeing people battered and bruised and bloody, injured and jumped on, along the Jericho Roads of life. This road is dangerous. I don’t want to pick up anyone else, along this Jericho Road; I want to fix… the Jericho Road. I want to pave the Jericho Road, add street lights to the Jericho Road; make the Jericho Road safe (for passage) by everybody….”
As Christians, isn’t our job simply to love thy neighbor? It seems like there are already so many “cultures” that Christians have created, from the old skool baptist culture to new skool “we’re all super trendy Christians” culture. Sure, the new skool stuff is probably more aesthetically pleasing to non-Christians who may have been burned by previous Christian cultures, but who’s to say that today’s culture won’t also burn people? IE – the not so trendy guy who’s just trying to get connected but can’t fit into the bubble of cook people that the new skool can create.
If we all (myself included, because I’m not good at this) stopped and just loved those different from us, God would probably step in and do the rest.
MLK…quite the man. Thanks for sharing that quote, that’s awesome.
Yea, that comment is not true. We are called to change the world, one person at a time. We are called to love, spend everyday loving God and our neighbor, this is the greatest command according to Jesus. THAT will change the world.
I’m with Shaun, the world “Culture” is so overused and “Relevant” that it’s lost it’s meaning.
How do we change the world? Sponser a child, that gives them hope. Feed the homeless, that gives hope, adopt an orphan, that gives hope, that also shows US Jesus because they are some of the least of these (matthew 25) and always love, really love, like 1 cor. 13 says not like we see “culture” loving, and THAT will change the world.
I keep seeing “Christian” this and if we are to be “Christians” that…..No one has metioned anything about being a DISCIPLE. I Heart Revolution has mentioned a quote that goes “To be saved cost us nothing, To be a DISCIPLE cost us everything”. Everyone around you claims christianity……We are called to be set-apart and not of this world, in a relevant fashion. If we look to our CREATOR for CREATIVITY then we will set the standard and not have to compete with the world while trying to immitate everything. Jesus didn’t go around telling everyone he was the Messiah, everyone knew. How did everyone know? He lead by his actions and miracles and DISCIPLINE, not until a miracle or someone being curios did he say or mention that he is the Messiah. If we take on and lead as Jesus lead then everyone will see by example that the grass is greener on the other side, and they will come by flocks and heards. That is what will make us authentic…You can call it a culture, body of christ, or whatever man made name you want to call it. In the end the only words that matter are “Welcome good and Faithful servant, welcome to my kingdom”.
Thinking is good. Re-thinking is also good. Thanks for posting this Carlos. I am glad you got to meet someone that is really special to me.
Thinking is good. Re-thinking is also good. I am glad that you posted this Carlos. I am also glad that you got to meet someone that is really special to me.
apparently re-posting is also good…
just kidding.
oooo harsh
i thought my post had not gotten through. no excuses…i stick by my double posting genius