A Little Something To Chew On
“If you are a follower of Jesus, a middle eastern man living in an occupied country who was crucified by the global military superpower of his day, and the leader of the global military superpower of your day, in celebrating victory and occupation of a middle eastern country, quotes hymns in the military victory speech about Jesus, if you are a Christian, this should make you nervous.
The Bible is a story of people living on the underside of military super powers.
The Bible comes to us from a small minority of peoples, who are conquered peoples.
So when you read this story, and you read this book, as a citizen of the most powerful empire this world has ever seen, you may miss some of it’s central ideas.
Because when it says some trust in chariots but we trust in God and you have 42.8 percent of the worlds weapons, You’re the one with the chariots.
My interest is in how we understand the story of the scriptures, and in some way separate the cross and the flag, just long enough to make sure that we haven’t bought into somethings that are the very type of things that Jesus came to set us free from.
- Rob Bell
Wow.
Wow.
Wow.
Discuss
Los
[ht:longbrake]
RAIN IT DOWN
I love me some Rob Bell, but the OT is full of military conquest by the children of Israel, not just the Romans. I don’t recall us going in and forcing circumcsion on any of our military targets recently…
Wow. Really thought provoking. Was this a quote from a book? Which one?
It was from a talk he gave last week
Rob Bell is cool but the first part of this statement is beneath him. He let his political views influence this a little too much. Using a word like “occupation” immediately discredits his statement. It reveals an agenda and he does what he urges us in his statement not to do: Put politics before the Bible.
Los,
That is a great quote which i agree with but we have to look at it from a different point of also. As a person that grew up in the middle east, also as a minority which is christian, what is happening right now is interesting. We are seeing a religion that dominated us ever since it came into that region in its true color. We are seeing islam expose itself as a truth it is. Violent, unforgiving, and heartless. I don’t agree on all our polices in the Middle East but still in that culture they truly hate the west. Nevertheless it is important to separate as Rob Bell says the cross and flag.
GOD BLESS AMERICA!;-)
I think we do need a bit of humility as a nation, even though we are the bad aXX of the world. Especially so if we are Christians who are not mimicking our culture, but subversively loving people to Jesus. (BTW–Carlos is my hero.)
I get Bell’s point, very warranted. However, I don’t see him saying that we should leave the US and move to Haiti so we can understand more.
I have been blessed to have been born and living in the US. I just don’t want to take lightly that I have the opportunity to do so much with the much I have.
was this talk on a podcast or somewhere it can be downloaded? i’d love to hear the whole thing.
Wow. That’ll make you think. Thanks for sharing!
Can we see the bias for and against Rob Bell in the responses here? Sheesh. Can’t we just read what someone says without judging their hearts? Leave that to God? I think he’s on the button, that we just need to self-check that we haven’t missed something in being a part of the problem instead of being part of the solution. There’s nothing wrong or political or whatever about that, is there?
“The Bible is a story of people living on the underside of military super powers.”
I really hope he doesn’t believe this is the grand narrative of Scripture.
I thought it was all about Jesus.
However, if his point is that our ultimate loyalties are to a King and a Kingdom that’s greater than any earthly empire, then I’m down with that.
I read HARD HARD political blogs everyday. Right Wing, Left Wing, Jewish, Christian, Atheist political blogs. I started to read this blog because of the lack of politics. My preference is no politics – unless you are a good political writer. But who am I??? just a clicker.
peace. I’ll return in about 3 days.
Hey Carlos,
I’m Dana’s roommate. I just began this strange blogging adventure. She told me to check you out. Are you a Tony Campolo fan as well? If not, you totaly should be.
~KT
the reason i love the above quote is the way it was packaged. it followed much discourse and elaboration on Philippians 1v28 and set up an amazing ‘ah-ha’ moment where the Philippians context fit.
great quote. but everything on both sides of it makes it even greater.
all that to say, don’t read too much into it without reading into the rest of the teaching…
I think Rob has accomplished his Goal. He’s made us think. Made us think in a similar way Jesus made his disciple’s think when he posed a question or situation.
Rob has simply presented the situation at hand. Consequently we are all now invited to search ourselves and decide what this means for us individually, as a church, as a country, and what we should do about it.
Good discussion.
Actually the Bible is not a story of a people living on the underside of military super powers.
Some times God’s people were the superpower. Rob Bell is a great communicator but he, like all of us, including me, sometimes allows his political views to bleed into his homiletics. He does the same when he talks about climate change, etc.
So when I read or hear Rob Bell, I try to find the common ground. Sometimes I just listen to or read something else because it isn’t worth arguing about.
All that being said, a point we can take away is to be careful not to trust in our great economic strength or our military strength.
It’s always surprising to me how pervasive this ‘Capitalism is Christian/ American values are Christian values’ meme is. When someone argues, ‘Well, OT Israelites used violence’ as an apologetic for US aggression in the Middle East, the implicit comparison they draw is ‘America is like Israel’. This should be a terrifying thought for anyone.
Or, what is more scary for someone hoping to live under a secular government, is that ‘God told me to do X’ can be an argument made for a government attacking another one (which is, again, implicit in the ‘America is Israel’ argument).
Or, it seems Rob Bell can wear cool jeans, listen to Coldplay, and watch R-rated movies with social messages, but he cannot criticize the US. That’s where being relevant becomes sinful.
Or, maybe Stephen just wanted an excuse to use the word ‘meme’.
S. Pihlaja misunderstood my comment, I think. My comment was not a defense of America’s foreign policy. It was a reaction to this statement by Rob, “The Bible is a story of people living on the underside of military super powers.”
I don’t think that’s necessarily true. That’s all.
Well, I’m pretty sure that America is not the greatest power the world has ever known. But we do have some chariots. What would the writer have us do with them? I agree that God is not American, but I’m not ashamed that we try to stay strong. Come on, people. Hitler wasn’t that long ago. I thank God for our military. And Rob might want to mention that Jesus was crucified by religious people. They utilized the power of the state, but they are the ones who got that done. Peace.
Great quote. I’ve read some of Rob Bell’s stuff and he usually has something to make me stop for a second and shine a mirror into my heart.
Shane Claiborne does the same thing in the same way. They push me to wonder how much of my dependence upon God I have given up for self-sufficiency and how much I am really willing to risk to let God be God and me be me.
Right now, I’m on the wrong side of the curve.
I understand his statement. I won’t lie. his words at times confuse me, but I agree with his statement for the most part.
One of the comments from Mark Thomas up top talks about the word “occupation”. While I see what he’s saying, I don’t believe that was an initial agenda. That agenda wasn’t really an agenda. It was formed after the fact…if that makes sense.
Anyhow, Rob is a genius who I agree and disagree with a lot in my life. What he does for my walk, is help it grow and expand. For that, I am thankful.
http://www.vagabondrunn.wordpress.com
People really get upset when anyone talks about what Jesus taught verses what American Christians live. It just doesn’t sit well, and I think that is good.
Ruffle the feathers, make us mad, get us really looking at the beatitudes and the sermon on the mount and you we will be uncomfortable with the place we are in…hopefully.
This is fascinating. It’s very interesting how many times you all use the word “our” when referring to the west. The assumption, as always is that the U.S. is your country. Sheep. Oh and Stephen, the ‘meme’ IS cool. (grin)
The cross and the flag should definitely be separated. The U.S. is not a Christian nation (whatever that means since Christian should be a noun not an adjective anyway). To convey that idea is to attribute all the negative the U.S. has onto Christianity.
Or maybe Derek Webb was right and Jesus is a white middle class Republican
“To convey that idea is to attribute all the negative the U.S. has onto Christianity.”
How about attributing the positives that the U.S. has to the fact that we were founded as a Christian nation and are a nation blessed with tremendous freedoms and that those blessings come from God.
As far as Rob Bell’s statements, no doubt there is a political agenda there, just as most of us have some sort of political ideology.
With that said, I found Happy Bushra’s comments above insightful and perhaps we should all not lose sight of the fact that the ideology of those we are at war with (or “oppressing” as Rob implies) includes a strong desire to push the nation of Israel into the sea. Remember Israel? God’s chosen people?
“And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing; And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse.”
“the fact that we were founded as a Christian nation”
You can’t throw around words like “fact” without something to back them up. Please show us the evidence to back up the “fact”
I’ll start:
The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion….
—U.S. Treaty with Tripoli, 1797
I have to say i am beyond blessed to see all the responds to this post. Los thank you for allowing this forum. I have a couple of thoughts that came to mind when i read the different comments.
1) It is so funny that we extend grace to people but not to the country. This is a country that was created by fallen people trying to make sense of Faith, Justice, and Peace. So it will make mistakes…
2) We have done mistakes as a country but we learn from them. I know people will argue that we still have racism, poverty and injustice, but we have learned some lessons and as we as followers of Christ we learn more about our faith as we grow in it.
3) We have to realize that there is a conflict between the West and East. Its a conflict of ideas, lifestyles and may say faiths. Islam is not something we should take lightly. It is a religion and a political system that is different than anything we have seen.
I am really sorry for the long comment but I feel that we have to realize that this country is not the problem, its our attitude toward change.
I have to agree with Happy above. I may not agree with the literal meaning of everything Rob Bell’s quote, but it’s evoked a number of different and very thoughtful responses. One thing that strikes me about the comparison of Rome and the US (and who hasn’t compared the two) is the general sense of powerlessness and complacency seen in its peoples as a result of being on top. There’s no sense of urgency to change, or to be changed. We’re constantly surrounded by the idea that change comes from the outside to within, and it’s reinforced by what media is constantly fed to us.
Jesus came and revolutionized what it means to be reborn, and it took the humility of broken people to understand that. Perhaps affluent nations and their leaders can benefit from this kind of thinking before they are forced to see their own spiritual brokenness.
I think that Rob has some good points, but his use of language shows a strong political bias and makes it very hard to listen to him. I feel a little mislead by his strong “Jesus was…” statements; that opening makes the rest of his speech feel more like a political sucker punch, not a spiritual encouragement. I felt like it was more about using Jesus to zing the GOP than anything.
What interests me the most about this conversation is how many people comment about Bell’s statements/opinions, rather than their own thoughts on the words spoken. It’s as if aligning against Bell or with Bell is the point.
i am prior air force reserve, so certainly not anti-military.
but…i know that trust in the greatest military of all time absent a fully submitted trust in the true Captain, Lord and King will get not a single one of us closer to true peace and eternal life with God.
Wow, people are mad over this one. I’m reading this as a political scientist who studies foreign affairs and teaches American politics. A couple of thoughts:
1. Sorry, but despite what David Barton writes, an honest reading of our country’s history makes it clear that the U.S. may be a nation of Christians, but it was not founded as a “Christian nation.” There’s a reason that God is never mentioned in the constitution.
2. Um, do people know the history of Palestine outside of what you read in the Bible? Because there’s no way that Israel or Judah was a “superpower” in any meaningful sense of the world. Their attempts at territorial expansion were small wars that we’d refer to as “tribal” or “ethnic” wars today, and they could barely control their own territory for more than a few dozen decades at a stretch. Israel was never an economic superpower, which is a big part of why the Romans had no trouble running them over.
3. Just a note for the commenter who said the US isn’t the greatest superpower in history – yes, the US is. Modern America has more economic and military power than any empire in the history of the world has controlled. The power is unparalleled, both in the present, and by historical comparison.
i think j. longbrake has a great point above. for me, when i read rob’s words i didn’t really get hung up on his political reference but more so the scripture reference and how that applies to my life…
“Because when it says some trust in chariots but we trust in God and you have 42.8 percent of the worlds weapons, You’re the one with the chariots.”
maybe i’m odd but it made me instantly made me think about how much i have. how much stuff. how much freedom. how much i can sometimes take God for granted becuase of how much i have.
“The Bible comes to us from a small minority of peoples, who are conquered peoples…
My interest is in how we understand the story of the scriptures, and in some way separate the cross and the flag, just long enough to make sure that we haven’t bought into some things that are the very type of things that Jesus came to set us free from.
- Rob Bell”
The opposite could also be said about who the Bible comes to us from. One could argue that the Bible comes to us from very triumphant peoples. Those who commanded small armies and conquered great numbers in the name of God: Philistines, Jericho etc…(I am in no way justifying the Iraq war. Simply countering the above point, with Biblical reference.)
Also,
I really believe Jesus came to set me free from sin and death, not patriotism and republicanism.
I was thinking about this last week. So in Romans it says to not have vengeance. To let God handle it.
“Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”
Romans 12:19-21
I wonder if we as a country were able to respond differently to 911 where we would be. If we would have actually trusted God. Maybe Bin Laden would be in custody. Who knows.
Christian nation? We are not. We claim it for votes.
Then we go to the old testament to justify our wars.
Jesus said to turn the other cheek. Then offer up the other one. We don’t have the balls.
Rob Bell gets a lot of crap because he nails it. It makes Christians who hold their flags higher than their Allegiance to Christ uncomfortable. He had a great 3 part sermon on this about a year or so ago called “Calling All Peacemakers” You all should listen to it. Then come up with one good reason why we should drop bombs on people.
DROP BEATS, NOT BOMBS
OBAMA 08.
Peace.
(Nobody told Los that Rob Bell was the antichrist. Opps.)
Great quote buddy. Keep challenging us!
Justin, If that was our philosophy, We probably wouldn’t have had to respond to 9-11 or capture Bin Laden. We need a deeper fundamental change than our president can provide. Be it Clinton, McCain or Obama for the next 4 years, there may be some differences on the surface, but we still live at the expense of others. When we are not standing on someone’s back we will not have to worry about 9-11 happening again.
There is difference between chuuch and the state conists
a equality under one kingdom of heaven. This the teachings consisted of feedom and security to all of Christ..
The history consists of civil wars to obtain a country of Isearal Old testament and laws the ten commandments.
Currentally The globial powers focus on army the tank to conquere to the chariot the Roman Chariot United States to tanks for Christian views still has not changed much in 2008. That very issue U.S
The acts of mercy for common area church and state of the destruction of goverment and values of the third world nations community once peace obtained
Help people out local to obtains security for job to community this what the church is and means.
Peace be with you
The state focuses on weakness of humanity instead of ablity. The church focuses abilities not ablility this peace for the community.
I don’t get all the “for or against Rob Bell” stuff. I liked Velvet Elvis. I disagree with his quote. Nothing against him. I couldn’t pick him out of a line up.
I believe that truth is truth no matter what the degree. For example, I don’t see the ethical or moral difference between defending our country against Islamic extremists or defending my home and my children from a home invader. Maybe you guys can help me understand why this is unjust or wrong. I sincerely don’t understand, but I hope I’m not offending anyone. Sorry in advance if I am. And Texas, I’m sorry to disagree, but historically, Egypt and Rome were much more powerful in their respective “worlds.” That is why Germany wanted to be the 3rd Reich. We’re big, but not on that scale. Please take my comments humbly, because that is my intended tone. God Bless, and good conversation.
i can’t say i know anything about rob bell.
i do agree with the people who have said that is a thought provoking statement, but I don’t agree with the whole concept. Israel was always a nation with an army, as almost every nation has always been. there is no problem with having an army and weapons. we are not a “conquering” nation like the romans and greeks and the wwii germans were. we go to war when we need to, we try to free penoople from bondage (t saying we always are wise about this), but you cannot use an argument like this to say we should disband our army and get rid of the weapons. it would be like someone saying “i trust in God to provide” and then sits on his butt waiting for things to pour into his lap. no, it still takes work to provide for your family, and it takes work to protect a nation. but you can still place your TRUST in the Lord.
“we are not a “conquering” nation like the romans and greeks and the wwii germans were.”
i’m not trying to tick anyone off, but the fact is we were established through conquering and used God as a rationale for our taking over half of north america with the notion of “manifest destiny.”
i think rob bell is just trying to make us really think about our role as citizens in supporting this war that has gone on now for 5 years and has resulted in the deaths of so many American heroes and innocent victims, yet i’m not sure any of us really know why…
Wow, Rob Bell will get up in someones grill and tell it! As posted earlier (Sean B.), I believe he is pushing an agenda in his own right. He has a generations ear, and I hope he understands the ramafications with that.
I, personally, think we have to seperate our belief in Christ with our allegiance to the country. We need to have an allegiance to Christ, not G Dub or the governmental system in place. Christians are to be free not limited to a governmental party.
The problem with his analagy is that he is implying we are there for a land (oil) gathering mission. Contestable, we were mislead to be in that area of the Middle East [still], but surely he doesn’t think that the US should be compared to the Romans, Babylonians, or Assyrians that God set into motion to help Israel see that their (and our) God is to be worshiped and not mocked.
I dig Rob Bell, but it seems he missed the mark this time.
Zucker said: “I dig Rob Bell, but it seems he missed the mark this time.”
Agreed. We need to separate our belief in Christ from our allegiance to the USA. On the same token we need to separate our charge to strictly follow the entire Gospel from our allegiance/worship of Rob Bell.
The man is human, fallible and won’t always get it right.
Quote “…but the fact is we were established through conquering and used God as a rationale for our taking over half of north america with the notion of ‘manifest destiny.’”
Larissa, you are right that much of our early expansion was at the expense of others, just as our treatment of many (Mexico, Native Americans, Ethnic Minorities) has been horrible. But Nate is still right. We have plenty of military and (un)civil skeletons in our collective closet, but we are not a nation that seeks to conquer other nations. Whether misguided or not, the current “war on terror,” including the occupation of Iraq was not done to annex other sovereign states or even to “steal” their oil. It was done to preserve the peace in the United States. “Hit them over there, before they can hit us over here.”
Again, I’m not defending our foreign policy, nor am I taking a shot at Rob Bell. I just like to give everyone–even our present executive branch–the benefit of seeing reality, instead of constructing conspiracy theories and such.