Convenient “Truths”
This was hijacked from my friend Josh’s blog…
This question was posed from the Washington Post:
Women are not allowed to become clergy in many conservative religious groups. Is it hypocritical to think that a woman can lead a nation and not a congregation?
Brian McLaren, one of their bloggers, responds:
“I just talked to a leading conservative religious leader about this the other day. He believes that the New Testament texts regarding women only apply to the church and not the secular world. I find that line of interpretation very convenient for conservative churches, and impossible to justify theologically. My guess is that more and more of the daughters of today’s religious conservatives will decide to a) abandon their parent’s approach to interpreting the Bible, b) decide the “secular” world is a more hospitable place and spend more time there and less in the church, or c) change churches.”
We have an eclectic group of readers here and in this quest of authenticity…
I would love to hear your thoughts?
Los
RAIN IT DOWN
I agree with McLaren on this point. It seems strange that a woman can be the leader of the country but not the leader of her home, church or in some cases even a bible study or sunday school class that includes men. I believe in submission, when it means submit to one another.
I am fortunate enough to be in a position where I am a worship director at my churhc. I am also given the opportunity to preach in our morning meetings from time to time. I feel privileged to be in this position, particularly in a reasonably conservative denomination and a particularly conservative congregation. In our denomination women can be sent out as missionaries, and they can be youth workers and I think assistant pastors, but they cannot be pastors or ordained ministers as far as I am aware. This is a curious distinction for me.
call me crazy or hypocritical, but i do believe that the Bible teaches that women aren’t to be “clergy” in churches. does that mean that they are unable to serve and lead, i don’t think so. it’s just the one forbidden fruit in a garden that has alot of other amazing fruit for us to enjoy. and no, i don’t see any such prohibition in govt. and i agree with adam’s submitting to another in marriage–but somebody has got to have the final vote when there is the rare checkmate.
I moved to Charlotte, NC 3 months to plant a church as the worship pastor. One of the first questions my pastor asked during the interview process was how I felt about women in leadership. We both agreed from the beginning that women could definitely hold leadership within the church. Now,we’re certainly not a conservative church, so however we fit into that part. But I’ve had one woman in particular who really sort of mentored me through ministry for a little while. I learned some awesome leadership from her. So if a woman can teach leadership, why shouldn’t she be in leadership?
This journalist obviously hasn’t spent much time in churches that don’t allow women to be spiritual leaders.
This is simply an attack trying to discredit Palin in the eyes of conservatives.
Do I really think that his guy cares about church polity and how it might affect the presidency? Nope.
I believe it’s completely within God’s realm to empower whomever He pleases to bring His message to the world. It’s completely ludicrous (IMO) that Women can’t be called to be spiritual leaders.
I tend to agree with amy on this one. Sometimes the Bible says things that, even if we don’t “feel” like it’s valid, it’s still in the Bible. It’s not really open to a different interpretation, just because the popular feeling is something different. I’m not surprised McLaren feels this way, and I’d be interested to hear his reasons that it would be impossible to justify, biblically.
No doubt this one is loaded with controversy…. personally I think a woman can hold and/or excel in any position a man can. Biblically, from a leadership perspective though, there seems to be varied interpretations depending on which side of the fence one wishes to come from.
Two examples…
1 Timothy 2:11-13
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%202:11-13;&version=31;
Galations 3:28
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal.%203:28;&version=31;
At the end of the day I think Jesus mostly cares what is in someone’s heart.
I agree with Mclaren re: what the response may be from our sisters, but I think the response would be unfortunate. I think Christians do not do justice in explaining this relationship, and certainly do not discuss it openly or frequently enough.
It would be an unfortunate response, becuase we need those girls. We need their influence, we need their emotion, we them to balance our pigheaded, driven mentality. Women bring a level of grace and faith to our churches that we could not live without.
I don’t it is a matter of the “New Testament text only applying to the church and not the secular world,” since everything in Scriptures is designed for all mankind in every matter of life. I do think the situation is that we have two separate institutions, both created by God to perform different functions in society.
Government was set up for a specific purpose, and so is run a differently in many cases. In the same concept the institution of the Church was designed by God with certain regulations and a designed to function a certain way.
It is disgusting how this can divide believers so quickly. Just because someone has a different role, it does not demean their character, or determine how valuable they are to the whole. I can’t wait to see how the women that are coming up change and challenge our thinking, but I think it would be a mistake to insist that we change the structure of one institution to mimick the design of another when they are set up to serve 2 distinctly different purposes.
I grew up in a church that did not allow women “leaders” per se, but it seemed that the women did a lot of leading, because the men simply would not step up to the leadership plate so to speak. As I’ve grown in my relationship with the Lord and have done more study of the subject I believe there are times when a women is the obvious choice for a leader…sometimes a woman is the only choice. I knew of churches in my rural area (growing up) where the only man in the church was the pastor…so women had to assume leadership roles.
Esther is a prime example of a woman elevated to a leadership position…while she submitted to male authority she was eventually elevated to a place of leadership herself.
Some people say that Sarah Palin is a modern day Esther just like some people are elevating Barack Obama to a “Messiah” status. I think we need to be careful not to over-spiritual-ize any politician even though I think God uses our secular leaders to effect his will.
JMO
On a personal note, and not biblically speaking,….I tend to fear women who crave power.
A man who craves power has to ‘put his foot down’
A woman who craves power simply ‘bats an eyelash’
He makes some interesting observations and I agree that those are the logical conclusions to make, however it also begs the question is everything that we don’t agree with make us into people who want to go away from what we were taught by our parents?
I pray that God would unify His church there are just too many ways of thinking out there.
I believe that God can empower whomever He wants to lead any organization He wants. I understand the culture at that time’s argument against allowing women to lead spiritually but it is also hard to argue for the amount of women led churches in the Bible…
all that to say I don’t believe that what is ok for the Presidency is not ok for the church. That is backwards thinking.
Los- SO GLAD YOU ASKED!!!! I agree with McLaren on this. How utterly ridiculous to think that God would gift and enable a woman to lead and then say “oh, but not in the church!”. I believe this will become a crisis in the American church for the next generation – why would a woman who does not know Christ want to know a God that says “check yourself – your gifts, your abilities, your dreams – at the door”. Since women do most of the serving, guess where we’ll be in 20 years? I believe if we don’t address this within the church – a topic no one wants to talk about except you of course! – it will become a crisis.
While I serve at a Southern Baptist Church which is conservative in theology, we believe much like Willow on the issue of gender relationships and leadership and have more female staff members than men! We have both men and women do everything. We want it to become a “non-issue”.
The argument politically speaking is also ridiculous since God favored Deborah by appointing her as
Judge – political leader of Israel
Prophet – Spiritual leader of Israel
AND she functioned as military leader as well
Deborah was the only leader of Israel to function in all three roles, btw. So how can believers say this?
And let’s not forget strong female leaders through the ages……Golda Meir, Margaret Thatcher, Queen Elizabeth, and on and on and on….
Get over it people! God made us both in HIS image….
“the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will.”- Daniel 4:25
As a Christian women, I have never felt God, the church, or the Bible has treated me or made me to feel “secondary”. In my very conservative Southern Baptist affiliated church and I’ve led a Women’s bible study, led a co-ed Sunday school group. Women in the Bible are depicted as leaders (Deborah, Judge in the Old Testament). They are depicted as important, equals as I interpret the texts. Put into context when these texts were written and you find the Bible completely radical at the time in regards to women’s equality. Even the the “subjecting” portion in the New Testament, it is balanced with how the man is to treat his wife. I find us going down a VERY slippery slope when we chose to take some portions of the Bible as God Breathed and then choose to “interpret” others as they don’t fit into our secular definitions. Why can’t we (as CHRISTIANS), trust our Maker and trust the only Book he gave us as a guide for living? Why as Scott wrote, are we going to let something from the Washington Post question our faith? God has give women a very important and time consuming ministry. I’m in a season of life where I am married with two small children. I find my responsibilites as committed Christian (how that makes me responsible to my God, my community (local and the world), student of the bible), loving wife, and loving mother completely challenging if not overwhelming at times. In my estimation, God has given me PLENTY to do.
I think you will have as many opinions as you have readers on this post. There were many many strong woman in the bible, many who were stronger than the man around them. Were they leaders, well if you look at the definition of a leader, probably so.
I do think there is a difference between a government and a church though. Ultimately all leaders are appointed by God according to scripture (and that is referring to government leaders like Kings and Queens), so if God wants Palin (or Hilary for that matter) on top, he will put them there (IMO).
In corinthians it says that the “Wisdom of God” is foolishness to the world. I believe that this is one of those issues. McLaren loves to destroy the Bible, even going as far as denying an eternal hell! McLaren is a Heretic in my opinion!
It is very clear that the Bible, and New Testament especially was written to believers. It is meant to deal with the affairs of the Church, not government.
Are women capable of leading, obviously!!! But for whatever reason, God desires that a man be the primary leader in a church. In the New Testament a woman was a Deacon but not a Pastor.
It is not a comfortable teaching, but it is what the Bible says, and that is supposed to be our guide for life.
Pastors – No
Leaders – Yes (inside and outside the church)
There is a difference and God’s Word is clear on the subject. Go Palin!!
Pick up a copy of the Blue Parakeet when it comes out in a few weeks. It addresses this topic in great detail.
There are really two passages that speak directly to women “not being in leadership.” They are contextually driven one will discover when thorough exegesis is done. Read the OT. Miriam (prophet who was part of the three that led the Israelites), Deborah (judge, parallel of modern leader), Huldah, (prophet, the one Solomon consulted), Esther, Priscilla, Junia, Phoebe.
“There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” That’s from Paul. To say that he also teaches that women are inferior in capabilities would suggest he contradicts himself and that there is inconsistency in the text. Got to have context when you read those passages about women.
And for the people that want to suggest that the bible says things that you “don’t like but you gotta do it,” how’s that whole not wearing clothes that are made of two different materials, or going outside of the city limits to poop?
okay, there are actually a few more than just two, but enough to contradict the plethora that demonstrate that women maintain influence and leadership
Wow Chad, I find your comment very offensive. There is more to women than just their sexuality and “batting an eyelash” to get what they want. Not everyone in leadership have a lust for power, there are people with natural leadership abilities, men and women, and these people need to use their God-given talents.
I agree with Steve.
There is definitely a huge difference between being a leader and being a pastor.
A pastor needs to shepherd the sheep and discern between the goats and the wolves, while being significantly attacked most of the time as well…
I’m not sure where being VP fits in… it’s certainly not being a pastor, but I wonder if it has somewhat of a shepherding role to it…
While doing some research I ran across a very interesting tidbit. In Romans 16:7, Paul recognized Junia, a woman, as a fellow apostle. An apostle in biblical times was the supreme role for a preacher and teacher in ecclesiastical rankings. In his book Letters to a Young Evangelical, Tony Campolo points out how far his evangelical brothers and sisters are willing to go in order to conceal the fact that women held prominent leadership roles in the early church. Campolo says, “When certain Evangelicals produced their own translation of scriptures in the first edition of the New International Version, they changed the name Junia to Junius- a man’s name. You may come to your own conclusions as to why they did that, but I think it was an attempt to restructure the Bible to legitimate their own chauvinist ideas about who should be eligible to lead the church.” This is scarey to me that Christians are willing to change scripture to make it what they want it to say. Wow! I thought we were not suppose to add anything to the scriptures? I guess is okay when we try to justify our cause. Thats why I always tell my students..”Do not take my word for it, study it for yourself.”
Wow! Three comments got in while I was typing mine…
Geesh… you are a blogging rock star Los.
Setting aside the issue of wether women a can lead or not, isn’t the point that God specifically spoke of leadership in churches because that’s more important to him than who leads the government?
This isn’t a question of leadership. I think we’d all agree that it takes much more leadership ability to be a mother. I can’t argue against the Bible in reference to female Pastors. Scripture says no so, agreement or not, understanding or not, we must make the hard choice to submit. A bigger question possibly is where is the divider between some New Testament rules (i.e. covered head, long hair, makeup) and others (female Pastors, Deacons being the husband of one wife). I’d love to hear some response on that.
I would urge all of you to read a book written by a VERY conservative theologian called “Beyond Sex Roles” – it’s authored by Dr. Gilbert Bilezekian, who is a very humble, wise older man serving presently as professor emeritus at Wheaton College. It exegetes all “troublesome” passages and will help you if you truly desire to learn and grow.
BTW, I never ever have seen in the NT where pastors are not supposed to be women. When spiritual gifts are discussed in Ephesians 4, gender is never mentioned.
In marriage and in church, I believe God’s biggest desire for us is UNITY – to be one as the Trinity is one, as Jesus prayed.
Whatever you believe, I urge you to at least dig deeper and search the whole of scripture before reaching your conclusion. Search the scriptures and search your hearts – this is an issue I have had to wrestle with for years due to my position and calling. So whatever side you’re on, search the Word and search your heart. Don’t just pick up a belief because it’s convenient.
As someone looking for a church, I have found several conservative Southern Baptist churches in my area that won’t let women teach any class that has a man in it. Why do we think God can give a woman the gift of teaching and then not give her a place to use it? He’s not a God of wastefulness. I’m still struggling in this issue and looking for a church that isn’t so conservative — not because I don’t believe what the Bible says but because I look at the context of the passages in Timothy as well as whom he was speaking to. As a single Christian woman, I don’t have children or husband to keep me busy and would love to be in service more. I’m now looking at using those gifts of service and teaching in more secular organizations. It’s important to me that the church reflect viewpoints of men and women — BOTH created in God’s image. But I haven’t found that. I do find it amusing that a lot of conservative pastors and writers are suddenly coming out with the different positions on church and secular work not that they see a poitically-driven reason for it. Yet those same pastors will teach that both jobs can be an act of worship and that there is no difference in working for the church or in a secular job … we should do all of it for Christ. Which is it, guys? But I will say this … lots of interesting discussions creeping up on this in all sorts of places, and that’s a very good thing. Thanks, Los.
I have lots of conservative Christian friends who think women shouldn’t be in positions of leadership (of the church or of the country). I suspect many will still vote for McCain.
I don’t have a problem with women being in position of leadership in the country. In fact, it is biblical. When God appointed leaders, the judges for Israel, he appointed a woman. If a woman is good enough for God, why shouldn’t a woman be good enough for me?
b/ You’re right on! I spent some time in seminary and learned more than I probabably wanted to know about reading the Bible in context. I do believe people are trying to be sincere when they say “this is what the Bible says, we have to just accept it.” But we have to look at the whole message and stop picking out the pieces we want to hail as more important. Yes there are some verses in Timothy that address men’s and women’s roles in the church, but you have to read them in context to the culture, the education of people at the time and the church Timothy was addressing. Then compare that to the whole of the Bible where there are numerous accounts of women holding equal leadership roles to men.
Opening up the can of worms, this one’s going to be interesting.
sadly (due to time) i was unable to read all of the comments listed above, however,
we must realize that Paul’s explanation of women in the position of Elder is just that. why would this have anything to do with the governement. Paul is writing to Timothy (in particular) about the offices of leadership given in the church. I do believe that women can be deacons, in a servant role and therefore in a leadership role. however, it is clear that Paul makes a distinction between deacons and elders. i heard it once deistinguished in this way: elders are servant leaders and deacons are leading servants. i think that this is key for us to understand. furthermore, why would this have anything to do with Palin being vp? Paul never gives any guide lines for pres or vp.
I wholeheartedly agree with McClaren. I think the body of Christ suffers when we don’t allow women to be pastors.
Im one of those people who like to ruffle the feathers of right wing, NRA patch wearing, KJV’ing, don’t spit on the sidewalk, pure holy folk. I love shouting OBAMA ‘08 when my wife is talking to her dad (who carries the above description), just for fun, or maybe spite. One of my prof’s, last week, after I attempted to start a debate, told me “we must look into the scriptures to find what it said then, and then we can attempt to hear what it says now.” I hate apologetics, discerning absolute truth, and people who are afraid to think outside the triangle, so for this post-modern punk who is attempting to gain a masters degree in religion, I shoot the bird with my ring finger and vomit when these irrational thoughts are debated. We will never find the answer to this question because each side is afraid to agree with the other. Just like every one else I just rattled off a bunch of BS. I just wish it was Obama/Clinton vs Mccain/Palin. Can you imagine all the sh*t that would be on the fan, if this was the case?
Carlos, I’d just like to point out that your post has more comments than McLaren’s original post on the Washington Post site.
The problem with discussions like these is we get a lot of “I think,” or “I believe,” or “follow your heart.” We tend to view these and other views about leadership (and other things) with our emotions instead of what God has to say about these things. There are a lot of things I wish were different about God’s Word in relevance to men, women, leadership, etc. But the fact is I don’t make “my” decisions on things such as this with my feelings. I am not God so what I think or feel does not mean a hill of beans. Truth should be made by the truth of His Word. Seriously, discussions like these are never good. They always end up in arguments. Yuck!
We are currently considering a woman for our Executive Pastor position. I would support her role 100%.
I think discussions like this are very useful as long as everyone is teachable. I’ve grown and changed my opinions on many issues after reading more and talking to others.
So as society changes we’re supposed to change how we read the Bible? With as much as our own society has changed in the last 100 years, thats a scary thought. The thing some people don’t want to face is that the Word has not changed, its not going to change. What was true in the beginning is still true today.
I’ve grown up under the impression that women absolutely could
not hold the position or title of pastor. as I study the passages, contextually, I feel like I’m learning that maybe we’ve missed the point on this one.
mclaren and compolo actually wrote a FANTASTIC book called Adventures In Missing The Point. it’s an awesome dialogue between those two on very volatile issues, like women in ministry.
Wow, guess I should bat my eyelashes more. So far, putting my foot down has worked for me, and to think I could have just invested in more mascara.
I find it most interesting that McLaren himself never really answered the question. IMO, he should be the one running for office.
As for my thoughts on the question, I do think it is hypocritical to think that a woman CAN lead a nation but not a congregation.
However, CAN and SHOULD are two different things in a similar way that LAWS and PRINCIPLES are two different things.
Can we abort children? Yes. Should we? No.
Can we ignore the poor in our own country and around the world? Yes. Should we? No.
Can we lie about our taxes? Yes. Should we? No.
Can a woman lead a congregation? Yes. Should a woman lead a congregation? I don’t really know and, to be perfectly honest, I don’t really care. I’m still trying to figure out the basics of faith, hope and love. I’ll let you know when I get to Christianity 201.
Sorry for all the caps. It’s just hard to convey inflection in text.
personally, I take McClarren with a grain of salt. The emergent movement is a little askew…but that’s just me.
Oh, this topic makes me fired up.
Back to McLaren’s orginal question of what will our daughter’s do? I pray it’s change the church. Not because we are altering scripture to suit our needs or desire for power. We “discard” other scriptures as out of context all the time, but a man-driven church holds very dear to the ones that tell women to be silent.
@west – That is one serious understatement.
Those who respect the opinion of Mark Driscoll should take McClarren with a *bag* of salt…
I think McLaren was a bad person to ask any question regarding conservative Christian mindset.
At least the issue is out there, and there are people and churches praying and talking about it. I think that women are natural, gifted leaders in some cases. They can lead classrooms and workshops, why not a church?However, in today’s world I think it would have to be a very special church to be led by a woman. Not because of the woman, but because of how women are still regarded by many (though not all) men. Especially attractive women like Palin. Would she be given as much attention if she were say, 50 pounds heavier with a ruddy complexion? Probably no. I will not get into scripture on this one JUST because the same things have been posted up here, on both sides, many times.
If we abandon the traditional approach to interpreting the Bible, won’t that be calling Paul’s and Peter’s entire body of writing into question? If you start deleting or modifying verses that don’t jive with the times we live in, who gets to say what we should throw out and what we leave in?
My personal opinion in this matter is that God has created men and women differently (not just physically). And He’s given them both roles, especially in the church. It just so happens, for whatever reason, He’s said women are not to teach or have authority over a man in the church. That says nothing about leading a business or a country. But it does specify how God wants His church to work. And I think He should have the final say on that.
Who are we to say, “Paul was just a sexist.” If we say that, then the words he wrote must not have been inspired by God and therefore without error. That just leaves us with a bunch of human opinions, and suddenly the Bible isn’t worth reading very much at all. We should never be politically correct at the expense of being faithful to the timeless truths in God’s Word.
Just my opinion on this… But I may be wrong…
I don’t think we need to modify the “way” in which we interpret scripture but we must understand many things were spoken in light of the culture. Slavery is addressed…does that mean the Bible sanctions slavery? I’m pretty sure no church would condone that today.
We could also go on to discuss the Bible’s qualifications for ministers and see how many TRULY fit the bill:
1 Tim 3:1-7
If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
I think we get so caught up in the minutia of details that we divide ourselves and fail to get the point. The point? Christ is preached. Disciples made. Widows cared for. People loved. That is the point. Question that? Then read what Paul has to say in Philippians 1:18
15It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.[c] 18But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.
PS…I’m not saying we shouldn’t aim for 1 Tim 3:1-7 (after re-reading my post it might have sounded that way) It’s in there black and white for no one to argue.
What I am saying is that the man/woman issue could be replaced with the issue of the person being able to run their family well (what is the rep for PK’s?) But I believe we ought to be united on one this and that is Christ is preached. If I think a woman can do it, and you don’t- let’s adopt Paul’s attitude and say…But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, Christ is preached.
gotta back up my wife (kristy).
how do all of you people who are against women in a Church leadership role explain female-led Churches that are making a difference for God? are we to believe it’s just luck? why does God continue to bless Churches with female leaders?
if you guys and gals are this strict in your interpretation then i guess i’m going to burn because i have long hair and some tattoos.. oh well.
what was it rodney king said??….
Bill,
You say that God created men and women differently. True. But, research suggests that there are “greater differences among genders than between them.” So, though God may have created men and women differently, he also created men and men differently.
Also, we must look at the context of Paul’s writings. He was writing to a specific situation in a specific point in history. Yes, I think that “the timeless truths” are found in Paul’s writings, but I think that we must uncover what those truths really are. Is the truth that women cannot ever teach or have authority in a church? Or is it a truth that our churches must be sensitive to the culture we minister in?
It seems to me the latter, as Paul fought and fought with Jewish leaders that they must allow gentiles to become Christians without being circumcised, yet he urged Timothy to be circumcised so that he could minister amongst the Jewish people.
Just my opinion…. But I may be wrong…
Saying that the NT texts concerning women and leadership only apply in the church is like saying that the laws on murder only apply within the church. Both are as erroneous as the views restricting women’s roles in the church!
Eh. Whatev. Woman want to lead. let ‘em lead. I’m all for it. It’s not like us “men” have done such a stellar job. In the Church OR state… so.. maybe it is time for a woman to step up and teach associate pastors how to not have affairs, buy prostitutes, or use Church Money for their E-harmony love interests or whatever.
I’m all for Change. Which is why I’m voting for Michelle Obama…or that guy that is always hanging out with her….
Great discussion guys.
I feel it is a “safe” place.
[Fingers making little quotation air symbols]
A few good points that stick out from your amazing discussion…
1. We need not base our interpretation of scripture on feeling.
2. If I think a woman can do it, and you don’t- let’s adopt Paul’s attitude and say…But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, Christ is preached.
I think that what metromom said sits well because it is backed on more scripture than emotion yet includes the end decision.
That Christ is made famous.
I’ve been to many different churches over the years, with many different views on this subject. For me the idea of Biblical leadership comes down to the idea of being responsible for the spiritual health of someone else. What I understand from the Bible is that parents are responsible for the spiritual health of their children, husbands are responsible for the spiritual health of their wives, and “leaders” i.e. pastors, elders, etc, are responsible for the spiritual health of their flock. I don’t see anywhere that women are called to be ultimately spiritually responsible for adult males in any way. What that means for me and my church is that women can lead(our worship pastor is female) and teach as long as they do it under a male elder or pastor (I don’t think women pastors are wrong or sinful just not an ideal situation.)
Of course, I could always be wrong. And as was pointed out in an earlier post, the important thing is that Christ is preached.
I don’t think that any woman in a governing position could be said to be primarily responsible for the spiritual health of the men she is governing, so my opinion is that the verse does not apply here. I do think that using a government example to argue for or against a Biblical idea is rather silly. That presupposes that were are a theocracy that operates under Biblical principles (which we aren’t) as opposed to a primarily secular society. (which we are) After all, the government does a whole lot of things that are not biblical.
Well… as a lady in a conservative church, I think there are ways that women lead appropriately within the church other than as the lead pastor. I personally believe that God has given that lead role to men. Still, God has appointed women in leadership roles when necessary (Deborah). I think that spiritually, God prefers men to lead. When it comes to secular leadership, I am not sure that any biblical texts supports or rejects women in a governmental role. I have never confused to the two roles, and as long as the church teaches the role of women clearly and effectively, I am sure that we women will know what God’s best is for us in the church. I truly do not find conflict between the roles God has lined out for me spiritually and the the roles he may have me play in the world at large.
Interesting stuff, Los. I’d like to hear what you think.
I think that qualifications for eldership in the church are just that. I think some principles can be gleaned from those qualifications that are potentially applicable to areas outside of the church, but they don’t all directly translate.
And Brian McLaren’s opinion on any subject will not change my mind. He has proven himself to be so in love with culture that he will offend God before he offends non-believers.
The gospel by it’s very nature should be offensive to people with hard hearts. The Bible says (and my own heart confirms) that we are, apart from Christ, enemies of God. Therefore, if God shows up, it should offend us, like Hitler walking into a synagogue. Enemies don’t seek to avoid offending each other. But God in his grace walks in and gives us new hearts that are capable of loving him.
The emergent movement seeks to sneak something really offensive (the gospel) into the back door, and when asked questions about it, refuse to take a stand. From issues like homosexuality to the authority of scripture, they consistently avoid the question or align themselves more closely with pagan philosophers than they do with the Church. And, I think that in an effort to not offend any man (other than, ironically, people with a high view of scripture), they in turn offend God.
So, while I appreciate that McLaren is, in his mind, trying to help… I fear his wolf fur might be sticking out a little farther than his sheep mask can conceal.
not trying to hate on McLaren, just voicing my concerns.
I have no problem with a woman being in a secular leadership position nor in a spiritual leadership position..i am not a biblical scholar by any means..but I do think in the early days of Christianity the people in the margins of society were more readily accepting of the Gospel… and there can be no doubt that in those times many women lived in the margins.
Does the secular democratic society determine how we interpret the Bible? Please, NO!
What makes the difference between a male worship leader and female?
The Church (some) have embraced that. Why draw a line there?
It’s God who raises up and puts down leaders. Is our heart in the right place to follow a female lead?
Part of me weeps that here, in 2008, this is STILL a conversation that we are having. I strongly feel that a “literal” interpretation of the Bible is just that… an interpretation.
We are called to a relationship with God. If one of my best friends said something that seemed truly offensive to me, as some scriptures seem to be, and something that seemed to go against the very nature of that person as I have come to know them, as some scriptures seem to do, I would have to ask questions, to dig deeper.
I have done that with this issue, and have come to believe that a God who created us all in his image (and yes, I use “his” because I think just about any pronoun is ineffectual in the face of the divine) did not pick some of us and say, “yes, you are created in my image except for these ways…” I can’t see a God who promises to love and empower and challeng me as a God who also says, “I have placed these leadershps thoughts and abilities in your head and heart, but you lack a few anatomical parts, so please keep quiet, or go feed your thoughts to that person so that they can be effectual.” I’ve also taken a good hard look at scripture and if you’d ever like to talk through some exegesis I’m totally down for it.
But mostly, as people all over the world are starving, fighting wars, grieving, lonely and hurting for a love that surpasses all else… is a question based on gender the question we REALLY need to be asking as a Church??? I’m sorry, this train of thought just really gets me fired up. But thanks for putting it out there, Los!
Much love from Seoul (where we still be in November, by the way, so holla!)
My husband and I serve at Marylin Hickey Ministries – so obviously, we do not have a problem with Women in leadership, women as teachers, women as preachers or women in general. Marylin Hickey Ministries has done more crusades and has delivered the gospel to hundreds of thousands of desperate people in 3rd world countries…how could you be against that?!?!
And we LOVE Sarah Palin!
So,just a thought: Can we really make a comparison between leading nations and leading the church? 1. Doesn’t that diminish the church a little? 2. Nations write the rules about how they work. God wrote the rules on how His kingdom works.
Apples and Oranges, bro. Apples and Oranges.
Billy the Kid
I have been the “Nancy Beach” and the worship leader at the last 3 churches I have served. I believe that we as a church have to face it that the role of women in leadership needs to be embraced just as it has been embraced in the rest of the world. No one church can dictate what that looks like, but if God has blessed your church with a woman who is spiritually mature, gifted in her area of ministry, and has the passion and desire to be a leader, this is a no-brainer. Jesus elevated the role of women in His 3 years of ministry and stood up for women to the religious community. We need to champion opportunities for women to lead in our churches.
When men are whimps girls have to step up (think Deborah in the old testament) BUT God does appoint woman to lead (think Deborah again-she was a judge before she had to help out a whimpy guy an lead the nation)just because he wants too also.
Palin’s got EVERYONE freaked!! Go sista!
I used to believe that women should not have leadership roles, HOWEVER, I was forgetting about Deborah! God appointed her to lead, so while I believe that we should give men the OPPORTUNITY to lead, and that men (husbands) should be the leader of the household, I also believe that women can be led to lead, and can lead! I am a supporter of McCain/ Palin and have NO problem with a woman vice-president. I dont have a problem with a woman president either, but I don’t believe its Hillary Clinton. I’m getting wayyyy too political here and I hope I’m not offending anyone. BACK TO TOPIC—> In conclusion, God has sooo much for women. We are treasured by God and God does appoint women, just as He appoints men, to lead. Some examples I can think of are Joyce Meyer and Lisa Bevere. They are great, Godly women who inspire and help and teach women (and men). Hope this helped, even though i did seem to get sidetracked
.
“Men plan wars, but women plan weddings and Jesus isn’t coming back for a war, He’s coming back for a wedding…” – Lisa Bevere
ohh,, and just to bridge the gap between spiritual leadership and political leadership…some believe that women can lead in the church, but shouldnt lead in government..well, didn’t Deborah lead a NATION? Correct me if I’m wrong…please, seriosuly.
First Flowerdust and now Ragamuffin…
What am I gonna do?
I’m DIVORCED and FEMALE!! What the heck is God going to do with me??
Seriously though, I think it’s all been said up there. All I’ll add is two words that HE’s been driving home in every area of my life, and I think they apply here.
Balance & motive.
That’s all I got.
Hey man. If I start a church community out here do you think your wife would be down with being one of the pastors on staff? I bet I could get her to move you and your family out here.
!!!
I think it’s always dangerous to evade God’s call, woman or man, secular world or in the church.
Not sure if this has been said but a lot of the more conservative churches I know of are ok with women being missionaries and leading in a foreign land but, if they come home they are expected to lay down that role. Seems to be a double standard to me.
Im 18, a freshmen in college trying to earn a degree in christian studies. I then plan to go to seminary for youth leadership. Im a women who, God willing, will be leading a youth nation. The future of America will be under the jurisdiction of a women. If God calls a women to a Leader in the church, why not let her lead?
@Texas in Africa
Exactly, God called me, not man.
WOW! What a discussion. The sadest part of this discussion for me is the number of comments that say, “Well if it’s in the Bible…[keep women in their place]“. Please, before you simply accept what you’ve been taught the Bible says, or what you read in your English translation, study out a topic. Go back to the Greek or Hebrew. Try to understand the context, culture, history, and the problems a lack of punctuation in the original language can create. Absolutely men and women are different from one another. Absolutely BOTH are created in his image. Think about that. We can actually understand more of God by trying to see something from the opposite gender’s point of view. Does it make sense that God would annoint/appoint Deborah but not desire her to actually do the job? Does it make sense that Paul would be saying that all women for all times cannot be leaders but then send his greeting to Junia (a woman) as an outstanding apostle? When the Bible we read presents these seeming conflicts it should cause us to ask whether or not there is another way to see the situation. In the past that question caused translators to change Junia’s name to its masculine version. Was that the correct response? I guess that’s between you and God.
hmmmmmmmmm. coming back later to post on this!
Count me among the complimentarian lot who are all for Palin as VP (or President!) but who think the teaching of Scripture is clear that women should not be leading our churches. It’s not a matter of gifting FWIW, women are just as gifted as men, and more so in some ways/areas. Timothy and Titus are pretty clear. To argue otherwise opens the door to many things including homosexual pastors. It’s not popular, but it’s Biblical. Pragmatism is NOT God’s way.
Went to an ultra conservative Bible college that taught women weren’t even to lead music/play piano if there were a man who could do it, even if he couldn’t do it well.
To which I responded, as I respond today,
“If God’s greatest gift to us is salvation in Christ, and that gift is given without regard to gender, why should we believe any other gift has gender boundaries?”
Of course the Prof threw me under the bus….but still.
I believe that the Bible should be the standard for all things. If the Bible says that a woman shall not teach or be the head over a man, then be it. But when a man fails to be a man and stand up to his duties as, priest of the home, father, husband, etc. then the woman should take the situation into her own hands. Proverbs 31 clearly shows the strength of a woman and what she can do for her family. People are not reading the Bible and taking and translating scripture in light of scripture. The Bible nowhere forbids a woman from working outside the home. However, the Bible does teach what a woman’s priorities are to be. If working outside the home causes a woman to neglect her children and husband, then it is wrong for that woman to work outside the home. If a Christian woman can work outside the home and still provide a loving, caring environment for her children and husband, then it is perfectly acceptable for a woman to work outside the home. Brian Mclaren is a post-modern “nothing is certain” “there is no truth” kinda guy. I would never in my right mind trust anything he said. But that’s my opinion do not get me wrong.
McLaren put it well.
man placed the limits on teaching and leading on women, not God. the contention by many that women are not meant to teach men, serve as elders, lead congregations, etc., reflects poor Scriptural understanding.
i suspect there are many others who grow weary of clicking on “staff” and “our leaders” links on church sites and viewing profiles of men only.
my wife – who i could not be more supportive of – is a campus pastor and on the ordination pathway. and, yes, i firmly held my egalitarian views before we even started dating.
women are capable of leading a local church, a country, and anything else for which God has equipped them.
and, ditto on the above comment recommending Bilezekian’s “Beyond Sex Roles”. serious stuff by a quality teacher…
I’m a worship leader at Marylin Hickey’s church. We definitely don’t have a problem with women becoming pastors and preaching from the pulpit. We have at least 5 or 6 who do.
I see in the Bible that God used women all the time for ministry.