Ray Boltz Comes Out
I’m not going to lie. I won the 1995 Mr. Berry contest by singing “Watch the Lamb”
I even took a knee half way through the song…
At first I tried to resist him, Then his hand reached for his cross,
So I knelt and took the cross from the Lord,
I placed it on my shoulder, And started down the street,
The blood that he’d been shedding was running down my cheek.
I freaking owned that song.
Well the feather curled man who wore that mullet better than any Christian artist of the 80’s, has come out of the closet.
I hope Ray feels loved in this time.
I have lots of gay friends, family, and former co-workers.
I know the struggle it is to choose to come out to the world when you have been living a lie.
I wonder, will this allow Ray to write and sing again?
Will he feel God’s love in a bigger way now that he has freed himself from his double life?
Or will the Christian funeral business have to find another theme song?
Los
Ray’s kids and ex-wife attend the church that I attended before the church plant I’m with.
His son was my small group leader when I was a sophomore in high school.
http://www.vagabondrunn.wordpress.com
I actually heard this news yesterday when it broke.
Ray had an impact on me. Years ago, like you, I covered his songs. Its hard to accept this news… I’m sad. I know Ray will endure a lot of crap now. I am praying for him.
I’d never heard of this dude, but that song is GOOD STUFF!! Kinda like Mike G, gay or straight doesn’t affect me liking the music.
I’ll be praying for him tonight.
Thank you for giving us this blog…I’m so glad you gave!
Hey Carlos have you read the article that was published by the Washington Blade?
http://www.washingtonblade.com/2008/9-12/arts/feature/13258.cfm
my mom is going to poop herself. i think she was secretly in love with him.
i have a couple of friends who are gay and show the love of christ in amazing ways.
Daddy, daddy…what have we seen here…
Good stuff.
My sister and I used to rock that song too.
I’m with Toby….the value of the music doesn’t change.
This is interesting…. (from the article)
Joe Hogue, “hopes for a day when Christians will see homosexuality as no more a perceived sin than it used to be for women to be ministers or for divorced Christians to hold leadership positions in churches.”
I agree Rebecca….
Joe Hogue, “hopes for a day when Christians will see homosexuality as no more a perceived sin than it used to be for women to be ministers or for divorced Christians to hold leadership positions in churches.”
Makes you think hard about our beliefs and views. Hmm.
“We heard the angels singing
Then someone called your name
You turned and saw this young man
And he was smiling as he came”
Really? I mean, look at that picture. Could have fooled me.
I may totally regret this, but just for the sake of discussion (please don’t acknowledge this if you can’t civilly). What are your opinions of the spiritual affect of Ray’s life-style?
Is homosexuality not sin? Confused by the comments so far. Is everyone too afraid of being pointed out as being intolerant? We can love him and his songs without easing up on homosexuality. If he was an alcoholic, would we be having this same discussion? If he lies about cancer, would that be okay? If he was addicted to porn, would that be alright?
My biggest problem is that this isn’t him confessing and looking for God to help him. This is him letting the world know that he is openly embracing sin.
Thoughts?
Wow, you can just smell the judmentalism coming, can’t you? I’d suspect there will be a lot less compassion and a lot more judgment dressed up in the language of being “sorry to hear this, but why doesn’t he repent?”
Please tell us there’s a video of your Mr. Berry performance!
The practice of homosexuality is a sin in the Bible I read.
The “being” a homosexual is not.
at what point does one become just an individual with homosexual temptations or a ‘homosexual’ in the sense that Paul writes about in his letters?
In Calcutta in 95 at Mission of Mercy, he sang, I spoke. I had business being there. I had been a Christian 2 years and did not understand Christian music. “Thank You” was a long ways from what I understood; pearl jam and the rest.
He is a good person.
Praying for his pursuit.
Much love. Much hope,
JHARP
Should of read, “I have NO business being there.”
Duh,
jas
@willyang
When you start bangin dudes.
Just the same as when I act on my lustful desires with chicks.
Los
good point los and I would like to hear an answer to willyang’s question.
Los
Help me here with the Homosexual verse Homosexuality.
If you have ever been attracted to someone other than your wife, but you did not cheat on your wife…would you consider yourself an Adulterer who did not commit adultery?
I’m trying to track with your logic….
Jay Wiley:
The analogy doesn’t hold. Yes, the act is a sin. Yes it is a sin to CHERISH it in your heart. Yes the homosexual is a sinner. Just like me, but with an incredible load of added baggage.
To make your analogy work you would have to imagine being completely and irresistibly drawn to other women every waking hour. You would have to imagine being hopelessly tormented by the desire to find your wife sexually attractive and failing, not because of any lack on her part, but because something inside you isn’t working right.
While it’s no different in a sense than any other sin, I can’t think of any other that produces so much inner angst with so little hope for overcoming a proclivity. Addictions come close, but at the end of the day you’re still not feeling so utterly abandoned and alone as someone who has been walled off from the most basic and essential of human comforts.
It’s easy to say, “Now you must remain celibate.” But if you haven’t walked that path your whole discussion is feckless rhetoric.
Thank you for still showing love to this guy and not coming down on him.
This is the kind of thing that I’ve been thinking about lately. How do the gays fit in our churches? As a friend commented…right beside me.
http://123pizza.org/blog/2008/07/10/where-are-the-gays-in-our-church/
Btw, there’s no proof that Paul himself was struggling with homosexuality. Not sure if that was the implication, but if so, let’s not write things into Scripture that aren’t there. That said, maybe Paul was struggling with homosexuality, and yeah, we all struggle with something, don’t we? Whether or not we act on it is our choice. For those who say homosexuality isn’t sin, well that’s a tough one. The Scripture indicates that it’s not part of God’s plan for us. If you truly believe that, it must awful to bear that inclination. I love gay people. I love all people who settle for less than God’s best, sexually and relationally, including myself.
Sorry, Los. But your answer doesn’t exactly track with Jesus.
“But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” – Matthew 5:28.
It’s not when you ACT on your lustful desire (with men or women who aren’t your wife). It’s when you lust in your heart.
It seems to me that Jesus is much more concerned with our hearts than our actions. And if we experience a true heart change, then our outward behavior will follow.
And that applies to Ray Boltz, you and me equally.
And, as for Ray Rayyeah, the hair has always left us guessing, hasn’t it?
I can’t imagine what it’s like hiding something like that for that long. I hope he’s able to connect with a church that will love and accept him but still hold to Biblical truth. Out of curiosity, I wonder how something like this has affected his relationship with the Lord over the years. A lot or not at all? Any thoughts?
Brett. I never said it was not a sin.
So yes. I believe Jesus and I track well together.
And Les.
I can tell you and I were part of the same church for 9 years.
I miss you dude.
Keep living it out.
Los
The fact of the matter is that none of us is capable of throwing a stone at Ray Boltz or anyone else who has sin in their lives. The only One who has the right (Jesus) doesn’t. Jesus loves all of us. Jesus died for our sins.
Why is it that we can tolerate two people sleeping together before marriage, people who cheat on their taxes, people who are gluttons, but we can’t welcome and love homosexuals?
My prayer for the church as a whole is that we collectively start acting like Christ and stop being jugdmental jerks who would make Christ ashamed.
Homosexuality is a sin…but so is being judgmental.
Just sayin…
Los, what you actually said was that when a person moves from just having homosexual temptations to being a ‘homosexual’ is when they “start bangin dudes” (your words).
And my point was that Jesus doesn’t say that we move from being a person with lustful desires to an adulterer when we ACT on that lustful desire. He says we are an adulterer when in our hearts we commit adultery.
My point is we are all sinners of one sort or another in our hearts well before we physically act out on our sin.
So, Ray Boltz is already a homosexual. You and I are already adulterers. All of us need Jesus to heal our hearts so that we will look to Him instead of to sin to satisfy us.
“The practice of homosexuality is a sin in the Bible I read. The “being” a homosexual is not.”
Does that really make sense to you? Being a homosexual IS a sin…whether you are “practicing” or not. I am not trying to be judgmental, but a Christian cannot just ignore God’s teachings.
I surely hope your opinion on this topic does not reflect the teachings of Buckhead Church.
Cole:
You are completely off base. To say that being a homosexual is a sin is the same as saying that being a sinner is a sin. You’ve merely succeeded in making a statement without saying anything. The Bible does not condemn homosexuals. It condemns their acts. Please quote something if I’m mistaken here.
To be human is to be a sinner. We are born separated from God. If you condemn human beings in your judgment of them as opposed to a judgment of their acts, God has promised to deal most harshly with you.
Unless you are the product of an immaculate birth yourself, I’d be careful.
I don’t think judging sin for what it is a sin in itself. Paul often let the churches know where they were going wrong. Jesus even called Peter “Satan” at one point when he got out of line!
I think sin enters in when we personally condemn the person, instead of simply offering Christ’s forgiveness, the same forgiveness we received.
Jesus said he didn’t come to condemn the world, but to save it. We shouldn’t condemn people, we should offer them Jesus’ salvation.
That being said, we do them no good as a brother or sister in Christ if we refuse to confront each other, using the Bible as our guide, in love. I need to summon the courage to do this to my brother or sister, and they need to so the same for me.
Couple of things. I think there is a difference between how we should respond to believers involved in sin and those outside of the faith.
To those outside the faith, we are to show the love of Christ and accept them where they are. It’s not about being good enough to get in the club.
However, for believers, I think it’s pretty clear that we are to call each other out on sin.
My big sin struggle in life has been with pornography. If I were to just accept that that is who I am and embrace it, I would hope that those believers closest to me would confront me on that.
In this situation, I think that’s what Ray needs right now. His friends need to confront him on this. His FRIENDS. It’s not the job for all of us on the sidelines. Nor is it appropriate for us to embrace Ray’s choice of lifestyle and shower him with acceptance of something that is clearly sin.
This is a personal matter and it’s unfortunate that it’s going to play out in public for all the world to see.
P.S. Cole:
You say you are not trying to be judgmental. Yet you succeed admirably without the effort.
Cole.
As much as you are I are sinful for being humans. Yes.
But having desires for the same sex and controlling those desires makes your and my strength look like that of a 4 years old.
Ask my buddy David.
http://www.sandalschurch.com/media/mediaplayer3.asp?file=/media/video/david.flv&title=DAVID
David struggles with this everyday.
Live in his shoes for a second.
You’ll learn a lot.
I’ve been reminding myself what I am supposed to do as a follower of Christ:
love
don’t judge
I have to remind myself every day to live it.
Praying for Ray.
Praying for us to love more.
Boltz declines to go into specifics about the first time he was with a man, but says he has been dating and lives “a normal gay life” now.
that’s from the article someone linked to above.
so if los is correct that having homosexual desires is not the same as acting on them – this music guy IS acting on them.
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
there is forgiveness available to the ‘homosexual offender’ just like there is forgiveness available to ‘greedy’ people like me. is there any sign from this bloke of turning from his desires? by the looks of the quote from that article above… it doesn’t look like it… “coming out” for him seems to have been the total opposite and a way of embracing the lifestyle which is against God’s intentions for relationships and sexuality.
Dave. You are correct. If he’s in it, then he’s in sin just like you and I.
I still hope he feels God’s love in this time.
I still hope he feels our love in this time.
many Christians have an un-biblical view of ‘judging’ others.
Christians are not to judge those outside the church… but they are from within.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”[a]
1 Corinthians 5
(the above quote was from 1 Cor 6)
simply look at the book of 1 corinthians for how the word ‘judge’ is used… see here
Wow. Kind of a shocker. Brings up a lot of controversial questions. Is someone born gay? Or is it a choice? If they’re born that way, is discriminating against a gay person or talking negatively about them or even publically disagreeing with them equal to a white person slandering a person with black skin? Is a Christian’s comments that cast any question on the lifestyle equal to “judgment?” Would Christians make stances/statements against homosexulity if Paul’s comments in Romans chapter 1 weren’t there? Or would the story of how the men in Sodom and Gomorrah treated the visiting angels be enough to “fuel” the debate? And, if it’s not okay for men to have sexual relations with other men, then what constitutes a “homosexual lifestyle?”
hey los.
but… is he trying to get out of it??
i now when i’m greedy or have lustful thoughts and i pray that God would forgive me and help me to fight it.
from reading your blog – i think your the same!
so for sure – i’m praying for him… and praying that God would work in him by his Spirit that he’s want to live a God-honouring life… that’s what I pray for me and pray for you too!
‘now’ should read ‘know’
‘your’ should read “you’re”
soz!
Yes, we are ALL sinners. We all fail terribly. None of us will ever be perfect or even close to it. But that does not mean that we are to keep wallowing in our sin. And it doesn’t mean that we are suppose to accept the blatant disregard for the Word among our brothers and sisters in Christ either. That’s not being judgmental. I get so tired of people saying that.
You see, what everyone forgets is that yes, God is a loving, forgiving Father who is full of mercy and grace and who paid far greater a debt than was ever deserved. But He is also Holy and just and a jealous God. And we don’t grasp what His holiness really is. Holy-not like us in any way, shape or form. I mean when Adam and Eve sinned in the garden God didn’t say “Aw, just come on back in I forgive you. We’ll work out that sin stuff later.” No…even though there was forgiveness AND mercy, the sin was dealt with. It had to be. Because of His holiness.
“Our generation struggles and wallows in cheap grace and shallow sanctification because we have departed from the biblical picture of God’s holy and exalted nature.” (James MacDonald) He’s not Big Daddy or the Man Upstairs…He is God, and all consuming fire. No one can look on Him and live for crying out loud (Ex.33:20)
The sooner we all get that, the sooner our churches will turn around.
Dave.
Yup.
I think he’s still in it.
Not trying to get out.
But I don’t know him.
I know an article that I read.
So I have no idea.
Thanks.
And Josh. You’re point is correct.
I think it is up to us to call each other out when we are in the midst of it.
And in the midst of this thread…I’m having coffee with 4 people this week from Buckhead Church who have read this thread and are in the middle of homosexual relationships who I assume are asking to be called out.
I love the internet.
los – good call.
los – praise God for the opportunity this blog post gives you to now minister to your peeps.
praying for it.
That’s awesome, Los. Yes. I think we may just be onto something with this internet thing.
Cool testimony from David. Thanks for sharing.
I agree it’s a sin. I confess that I also struggle with the acceptance/tolerance/judgment issue, but just to add a different perspective…
It’s easy to quote a verse, theologize, exegesis, etc. when it’s somebody else. But what if your son son, my brother, your father, my daughter comes out today? They may have to leave ‘our’ church, we may have to confront them… call them out, but then what?
It’s all fine and clear until we turn the fingers to ourselves and our loved ones.
Brett –
SO – here it is – out there in the open. If being tempted is a sin……. as you indicated by “tracking with Jesus” to be tempted by adultery…..
THEN – Jesus was a sinner. For was He not tempted like all of us? Again – pretty sure the Bible is clear that in His temptation He didn’t sin.
So – yes, one can be tempted – by adultery… but not sin. It is the action that creates sin – so yes – harboring lustful thoughts or fantasies is a sin – but being tempted by a woman or anything else – is not a sin – unless acted on.
As someone who is struggling, to quote Jeff “I can’t imagine what it’s like hiding something like that for that long”, believe me, you have no idea. Although I don’t necessarily embrace my same-sex attractions, I do embrace the fact that I am imperfect, and this seems to be the mother of all thorns in the flesh. To all of my Christian friends I was able to share this with, all but two broke off contact with me. This has also caused alienation with my own family. It’s hard to explain how lonely it sometimes is. Again, I realize/confess that it is not part of God’s plan, but that doesn’t make my struggle any easier. Just wanted to add my two cents for what it’s worth. Pray for Ray’s ex-wife and children, I’m sure they’re hurting as well. And please pray for me.
K.
Praying.
and thanks for being real.
::::BREAK::::
Los-
thank you! your site gives us a chance to have an open, honest discussion about an often too tense issue.
j
Los–thanks for sharing the video of your buddy David. I admire his courage and a church community that makes a testimony like that possible. I imagine there are so many more in the church who struggle with these temptations but do not feel free to share their struggles b/c somehow this sin is more “unacceptable” or “worse.” We give sin more power when we refuse to talk about it. We give sin more strength when we judge the sinner and make him feel unloved and unwelcomed.
Every one who says that it is in a sin to be gay is quoting out of the King James Bible. If you were to go to the oringinal texts, the word homosexual is never mention. What is mention is male or female prositution to pagan Idols. That was a common practice during pauls time. Ths sin of Sodom can be found in Ezk. Where God says the town did not give to the poor or treat people with respect. I think we need to start studying the word of God instead of taking everything that has been spoon feed to us out of unlearned men.
what about the covenant that this man made with God and his wife during their wedding vows? It’s easy to dismiss, why is that? Do we hold marriage between a man, woman and God that fragile? I don’t believe Ray started out a homosexual, I think he was unable to crucify his flesh.
If you were to go to the oringinal texts, the word homosexual is never mention.
dude. are you serious? i’m only beginning my study of biblical greek… but i’ve got the original text in front of me… and it’s pretty clear that in the 1 Cor 6 passage i quote above (which incidentally is from the NIV) that there are not 1 but 2 words for homosexual:
1) malakos (i don’t know how to put the greek letters on) which means = soft, fine, delicate, effeminate, homosexual.
2) arsemokoites = male homosexual.
i’m not sure who’s been spoon feeding you, but maybe you might want to do a bit of extra work before posting.
‘Interesting’ discussion around this one!
This is another opportunity for the ‘Church’ to act as it should towards someone who had admitted to their sinfulness in a very public manner. HOw will they deal with it or will they just whack Ray on the head and rip his cd’s off the shelves
Maybe Jesus can help eh?
I for one cannot throw stones… for we’re all sinners every day of our lives! It’s His mercy and grace that allow us to keep on going. May Ray continue to seek that grace with the struggles that he will have to go through with this revelation. And may he find peace in Him!
Whoa – big charges up there against Jesus saying He was a sinner also…
Can one be tempted by someone or something and not act upon it? For example – sexy hot chick pulls up in her drop-top corvette and is like “Hey Jesus – wanna go for a spin and maybe hang out at my place?”
She is in fact tempting him by enticing Him to do wrong by promise of pleasure or gain.
But if Jesus is just like “Nice car, no thank you, I am not remotely interested in going for a spin and hanging out at your place.” and he REALLY means it (which is how I believe the Jesus in my bible reacted to temptations) than He is not sinning nor is He a sinner.
Right? Just because your tempted doesn’t mean you’re a sinner. If He didn’t lust in his heart after her He wasn’t sinning and isn’t a sinner.
None of us can say that but I believe Jesus could.
I rarely use the words homosexual or gay because they are almost useless. They mean something different to each person. I prefer “same gender attraction.”
Same gender attraction is one of a million types of temptations, not sins. I don’t have this particular one, but many men whom I love do. Also, I am confident that I have temptations of varying degrees that these men do not.
If being tempted was a sin, Jesus would have been a sinner because He was tempted. The delineation between temptation and sin is pivotal in evaluating things of this nature.
I also agree that our responsibility as Christians is not to judge outsiders. And when we judge insiders, we need to handle that appropriately too (which we typically do not).
peace|dewde
http://dewde.com
I call it homosexuality. That’s what the bible called it, and God makes it pretty clear what it is. It’s pretty simple to me, I’ve never been to bible college so I’m not by any means as knowledgeable about the bible as I should be.
I do know there is specific instruction to confronting people with sin, and specific instructions for what to do with people who continue to openly sin without remorse. In that sense, it’s black and white.
I like was Carlos said about not knowing the guy personally – and therefore not knowing his heart. I doubt many of us do. Dude could in the back of his mind be wrestling with God on this one (how could he not be?) and deserves love and prayer. Don’t we all?
It’s hard. I struggle with judging on this a ton. My first reaction was to dismiss this dude. I don’t want to accept or tolerate this sin – and I never will. Am I as vigilant with other types of sin? Adultery? Lust? Lying? Cheating? I suck, and I know I’m not. I’m a hypocrite and a sinner.
I loved his music growing up — heck his was the first concert I ever attended!
His sexual orientation doesn’t bother me. It’s all in how he LIVES for Jesus that counts.
K-i am praying for you.
if you are interested in another friend send me an email, megan.jadams@gmail.com
What Tymm said.
Bryan, I think you misunderstood me. I’m not saying a person is a sinner when they experience temptation. I’m saying that in Matthew, Jesus said that when we look at a woman lustfully, we have sinned. There is clearly a line between a person being tempted and that person then lusting in their hearts.
And I think way too many of us step over that line. If you can say truthfully that you have not stepped over that line, then awesome. I wish I could say that.
Jesus never did. Yes, he was tempted. No, he never sinned in any way, including looking at a woman lustfully.
My only point was to say that the moment of sin isn’t merely at the point where one PHYSICALLY acts upon a temptation. It is usually way before the action ever takes place.
And thus continues the discussion about sin. Funny how a conversation about homosexuality became a conversation about sin. Or maybe it’s not funny at all.
Tymm -
I never called Jesus a sinner by my understanding of it. I was trying to make the point that if being tempted is a sin – then that would make Jesus a sinner – which the Bible clearly tells us He never sinned.
That was my point.
Hope that makes it a bit clearer.
Wow, Los, lots of discussion going on here. Dang bro. I wanted to let you know I shared more thoughts here:
http://tinyurl.com/57wjdl
From my interpretation of the Bible we have to call sin, sin, and the lifestyle that Ray Bolz has embraced is a lifestyle of sin. I too have had a couple of friends over the years who were homosexuals. I loved them, but I didn’t condone their lifestyles, and they knew that. One friend died of AIDS 15 years ago. He turned from his lifestyle, repented and accepted Christ, but he still had to live with the consequences of that lifestyle which ultimately was a death sentence for his body here on Earth.
Yes, love them…don’t beat them over the head with the Bible, but neither should you stand back and say “Yay ____” for embracing the homosexual lifestyle. That’s not the kind of “love and encouragement” they need. What happened to Ray makes me sad, and makes me yearn all the more to pray for him. I agree with the person who said that his friends and family need to confront him (lovingly)…but not before they get counseling and education from those in the Christian community who are qualified to aid them in the intervention process.
I don’t agree with the statement that sex is an inherent need of a human being. Sexual desires can be controlled. If they couldn’t then society as a whole would crumble into animal-istic disarray. God is very clear on the bounds of sex, and his scripture also says that He can help us find ways to escape ANY temptation. To say that homosexuality cannot be overcome is telling God that there is something He cannot do. Is it easy? No, but at some point we all face situations in our lives that are seemingly impossible…that’s one of the reasons we need God and the redemption of Christ.
Los, and all other commentors:
Please read the following quote. In my understanding of the written text, it seems that he is, in fact, pursuing relationships (and therefore sexual encounters) with men.
“Boltz declines to go into specifics about the first time he was with a man, but says he has been dating and lives “a normal gay life” now.”
I hurt for Mr. Boltz just as I would for anyone living shackled by sin whether they profess Christ or not. It makes no difference to me what the sin is. My main concern is that Mr. Boltz is not calling his own sin what it is sin. We are all broken and we all have sin in our lives that God must deal with; however, it is never good to accept our sin and call it an acceptable way of life.
Do I judge Mr. Boltz for being broken and sinful? Absolutely not, for I am broken and sinful. I do declare that practicing sin is wrong whether it is anger, pride, sloth, gluttony, faithlessness, unbelief or the practice of homosexuality (to which Mr. Boltz admits) or ANY kind of sex outside of marriage is wrong. I am judging the act, not the person.
Let’s not get into the argument that gays have to practice sex outside of marriage because in most places it is illegal, because we will never agree – God created marriage and marriage ONLY between a man and a woman.
Thank God for Ray and his music, but this lack of accountability is destroying the body of Christ. I’ve been in his family’s shoes. My dad was a minister for as long as I can remember, was married to my mom 21 years, and then “came out”. He and my mom divorced. He died of AIDS about 14 months ago. Homosexuality is wrong, and the Bible is clear on it. The thing is, sin doesn’t just hurt or affect you. It touches and impacts everyone you love as well…and in some cases like this, hundreds or thousands of people you don’t even know. My prayers are with him – that he can know and understand the hope of his calling. My prayers are with his family – that they would continue to be comforted through this and not become discouraged or lose sight of who they are in Christ.
Los,
I really appreciate the way that you’re handling this. It’s clear that you think that homosexual behaviour is a sin, but at the same time, you’re not treating it as the “sin to end all sins” and you’re not running to be first in line to stone this man, while looking the other way while people gossip, lie, and commit other “little sins.” You clearly haven’t made a hierarchy of sins, and I really appreciate that.
My best friend (a guy) in high school came out during my senior year. Although I have a lot of pretty strong opinions on this…I’m really not looking to get into them here. All I know is that we need to pray more readily than we speak (and debate) when it comes to issues like this.
Los, I know you promote “healthy” discussion on things like this…but I have an honest question. Does a blog where commenters can be pretty much anonymous to one another (not to you, since I know the e-mail address is required) really foster an effective conversation on an issue as complex as this? It seems like it would be a discussion best had with people we know, even trust, when we’re actually face to face. Not behind some computer where it seems pretty easy/safe to offer our opinion. And I’m really asking you because I want to know, not because I’m trying to stir up some other set of arguments. So please Los…let me know what you’re thinking.
Wow, these posts really concern me about our generations lack of clinging to biblical truths. Has he repented? To say your a Christian, and be dating a man and living a normal gay life is a lie, and unbiblical. He is a sinner, just like many of us, but we are repentant. Is he? Remember, judgment starts with the house of the Lord. This political correctness is so dulling to the biblical norm. It’s so wild that so many “worship leaders” are ready to embrace someone who is claiming to be a Christian, and is living as an unrepentant homosexual. Where are you leading people? Please don’t forget the Word of God, in your pursuit not to offend.
One thing I like to do with controversial subjects like this is to remember that Ray Boltz himself might read these posts (in fact, every single thing someone types into the internet might be visible to the whole world for a long, long, time – perhaps the rest of history), so carefully choosing your words is a must. Tactfully speak (behind someone’s back, remember) as if they were right there with you, face-to-face. God is listening, too. God (and Noah) rewarded the two sons that walked backwards into the tent to cover Noah’s drunken nakedness; and actually rebuked the one that “exposed” or talked about the sin of their dad. When giving the church a blueprint for dealing with sin, the first step (in Matt 18) is to confront one-on-one behind closed doors. The second step is a two-on-one rebuke behind closed doors. My point is not how this fits with Ray’s public interview/confession thing; but my point here is God prioritizes dignity above shame every time. It’s His first two choices. So, what’s lame (and what some have picked up on here) is how we can callously discuss this issue as if the person (Ray Boltz) had no dignity to salvage. That can’t be forgotten in a messy discussion like this. Sin is sin; but this discussion is tied to a person. The fact that the guy went public with a newspaper interview probably opens up debate and kinda allows us to discuss this person and his sin. I’m just saying there’s a balance in how “we” handle this.
@Doug: Thanks for making that point. I admire what you do with HM…definitely respect your take on this stuff.
@doug. Well put brother.
R // Yea. I think it is completely ok.
I get the emails of everyone who comments and check them.
If they are fake I pull the comment.
So although people might be anonymous on the blog itself, you can be assured they are real.
This discussion has certainly meandered into the surreal.
I very much like Vicki’s take. The only thing I would change, Vicki, is your statement that sex is not an inherent human need. I believe it is. Sex goes deeper than our human understanding of it. I believe that it is an inherent human need put there by God, AND that it can be controlled, as you say. It MUST be controlled. God also put the power to control it within us and the power lies within Him. When God tells us to behave a certain way it is because that is the way He originally designed the deepest parts of us. To behave otherwise erodes us in countless ways. Eventually it leads to death.
This morning Matt Brown preached on this. I fully agree with his take, which is that the two choices available for someone struggling with “same-sex attraction” are celibacy, and marriage to an understanding spouse. I have gay Christian friends in both categories. Life for them is a constant struggle of the kind that few of us are able to empathize with. They rely on God’s infusion of His Presence as their strength. They are an inspiration to me.
We don’t know where Boltz is on this at the end of the day, and it is folly to rely on some journalist’s testimony to what lies in the man’s heart when they usually don’t get right the simple words that come from his mouth.
We pray, if we care enough. It’s all we’ve got. Boltz’s music is not hypocritical any more than David’s Psalms. Everything we do comes from broken people.
i struggle with this daily and have since early years. i am also a christian. recently, my life has been turned upside down by my struggle. i honestly believe many of you have no idea what it is like to deal with this one particular sin on a day to day basis. shame, guilt, frustration, hopelessness are all things i experience on a daily basis. do i believe there is hope in christ? sometimes. am i ashamed or disgusted with my feeling and actions? yes/no. 4-5 months ago i was. now i don’t know how i feel. i am numb. i am confused. i ultimately know that i don’t feel comfortable with these feelings, but after 10 years of facing this stuff i am tired. i don’t have the answers and honestly i am tired of searching for them. my faith and my life are intersecting it seems for the first time. i am asking questions that i never thought i would ask: “is it worth it?” “is god all i need?” “does god truly want me to have abundant life?”
i know this is a random post and not the most well written. but, i want to give all of you a glimpse of what goes on inside my head. i don’t think it is as cut and dry as some above posters think. this is life. people are involved. feelings and emotions are involved. past hurts and problems are there too.
i also believe we need to open this dialogue up in our christian communities so people who struggle can receive answers and love. how many people sat beside us this morning in our churches hung over and if one of those individuals came out with that information would we be having the same level of talk and discussion as we would if that person said they were gay? would there be the same sense of urgency to pray and to come up with answers and ways to handle? maybe that is not a good analogy but one that i think about often.
@AJ. Hang in there and know that Christ’s message is grace and love. As a gay man who has struggled to reconcile my identity with the teachings that I’ve heard all my life, I know and understand the numbness that you are describing. I am a Christian–but I am also an out gay man in a long-term committed relationship. There are Christian churches and communities out there that can affirm and support you. Focus in on God’s love and let the Holy Spirit lead you.
@Los. Thanks for opening this dialogue up. I really appreciated your comments that…
“I have lots of gay friends, family, and former co-workers.
I know the struggle it is to choose to come out to the world when you have been living a lie.”
Thank you for respecting that struggle.
AJ;
Thank you for that. Up to your comment all of this has been so academic. I hope that someone will weigh in with hope for you and all those in your position. I am going to be praying for you beginning right now.
There are many people in this world who are not gay, but have to struggle with a similar quandary. For any of many reasons they are not desirable or attractive to anyone of the same or opposite sex. They have to live out their lives completely alone in terms of humanity. They have many “friends” but never that one person to bond with for life. God is their only refuge and they have found peace and even happiness in that situation.
The common denominator is loneliness. All I can say is that if it were me in that position I would resign myself to “me and God.” It may be hard to believe, but He IS all we need. I know that when our hearts are breaking His heart is breaking. AJ, don’t stop hoping, and don’t give up. God Bless you.
AJ, please take a look at the links I’m putting at the end of this comment! Being gay is NOT a sin as we have been told for years. You are loved by God Almighty just as you are with no hesitation. Your salvation and your personal worth are not decided by who you’re attracted to.
If you need an ear, you can contact me through my blog. If you’re uncomfortable with that, PLEASE click the emergency numbers link at the top of the Soulforce page that I link to below. Your numbness honestly frightens me because I’ve been there, and you’re right, these other folks like Les, God love ‘em, can’t understand what you’re going through. They haven’t been told all their lives that they’re …well, I’m not going to repeat the slurs, but you know what you’ve been taught.
Please know that what you’ve been taught is a lie. Your shame is built on a lie. You can accept and love those feelings that you’ve hated.
http://whosoever.org/bible/
http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian
Just like our congregation was told after we found out about our pastors long term affair, “the mess in the messenger does not negate the message.”
I, like Los and many of you, have freinds who are homosexuals. I’ve tried very hard to extend love and grace to them without compromising the truths of Scripture.
Is it just me, or does it seem like homosexuality is almost becoming like another “religion?” The more I speak with my friends and acquaintances who are gay, their “coming out” stories resemble more and more like a Chistian’s testimony. “Before I came out I…..Since I came out I …..” I’ll admit, some of their stories are quite dramatic and tug on the heart-strings. However, we can not allow ourselves to become sympathetic towards sin – no matter how well it’s packaged.
@Matt. Thanks for posting the links for AJ and for anyone else reading this blog and feeling the numbness that was described. I agree that while most of the comments posted on here are based in love, so much them are also based in heterosexual priviledge. It is very easy to take on the “love the sinner, hate the sin” view or call for a life of loneliness and celibacy when these aren’t the stakes that you are up against.
I encourage everyone to take a look at the links posted by Matt.
hey guys.
here’s a great website that might help people struggling to deal with homosexuality:
http://www.libertychristianministries.org.au/
here’s a very very helpful book:
http://secure.fellowworkers.com/cgi-bin/mmstore/wsyw.html
@Nathan – amen.
Do we hold and embrace a dude that’s cheating on his wife? What if he refuses to stop? Do we still rally around him like people are here? REALLY?
What if a worship leader is doing drugs and/or drinking their brains out? What if they refuse to stop? Do we take him by the hand and embrace his struggle? Does he keep his job?
Yes, this is just another sin, but to the rest of the world it’s not. As much as everyone wants to have tolerance, and be politically correct, it’s not “just another sin” to everyone. Just like the above situations wouldn’t be just another sin. Leaders of a church don’t rebuke and kick people out of a leadership position for “just another sin”.
I’m not trying to be all confrontational, I just wonder what people think:
Can someone live a “Christian life” when they are openly sinning (any sin) with no remorse? What message do non-believers get from this?
If we as Christians are seen as first”enforcers” and second”lovers of God” then we have it backwards.
Yet both are needed.
My take.
IT is a sin to act on those feelings.
I feel like I’ve said it a few times in the comment section.
You can have those feelings the same way I have feelings I try to run from inside for other women ect.
But to try your hardest and turn away is the only way to find favor with God.
That being said…I believe that we as Christians judge first and love second.
That is backwards.
@Los:
“I believe that we as Christians judge first and love second.
That is backwards.”
You’re right and it speaks volumes to the world. It makes me think the real tragedy is not that “non-Christians don’t understand us.” It’s that “Non-Christians understand us better than we understand ourselves.”
peace|dewde
http://dewde.com
Los, I think the overlooked issue here is that Satan is at work in this issue in our society. There’s an active effort on his part to legitimize this lifestyle in our society. And Ray coming out publicly in the media is a big win for him. He’s twisting the idea of Tolearance into making sin something that is acceptable and ok. Its systematic. Talk to anyone struggling with this sin and you’ll see how destructive it is. It destroys them on a daily basis regardless of their r/t with Christ. Our struggle as Christians is to love those with this struggle as Christ does, without legitimizing the lifestyle by being “tolerant”.
@Gary:
“Los, I think the overlooked issue here is that Satan is at work in this issue in our society. There’s an active effort on his part to legitimize this lifestyle in our society.”
I would agree, and Satan has already succeeded at legitimizing other issues in our society too. One could barely turn on a TV today and remain sinless. We have been desensatized to what is portrayed or shown. Same with music, books, going to bars, etc. Why does this one issue still get such a huge response when it is happening all around us with everything else? I just don’t get it.
@AJ:
That’s a critical point. Satan’s most successful campaign against healing is to offer rationalizations for EVERY sin. His solution: “Just give in and flow with it. Follow your natural inclination. Immerse yourself in the sin and you will find relief.” But the promised relief is short-lived and unfulfilling. If I’m addicted to pornography, the solution is not to find a church that says pornography is O.K. The church I need is one that will recognize my agony and embrace me as I seek God’s power to overcome.
That this issue gets such an enormous response is a wonderful distraction for those of us who are guilty of other more insidious things. We can look at those struggling with homosexuality and pretend that we are at least better than that. And THAT is probably Satan’s greatest tool of all.
Every time he gets me to think I’m better off than you in terms of my behavior before God, he wins an important victory in me. Sin and the pain from it are our common denominators as human beings. God offers healing and the promise that if we persevere in this life of a few decades, we will experience unimaginable joy and peace for billions of decades with Him.
This has been incredibly interesting. I can’t stay away from checking the comments. I’m not a christian, so I don’t have much to say about christian views on homosexuality from that standpoint…but it’s been really educational to see the vast ways that it is perceived, tolerated, embraced, shunned, etc. I feel for those within the church who struggle with this, knowing that many do not approve of them, their feelings, their lifestyles. I can see why that would lead to a lot of depression and lack of inner peace..feeling that you are living two separate lives. I also find interesting the statements about “love the sinner, not the sin.” What does that mean?…in a practical way? Like, if a loved one decided to fully embrace their lifestyle, and marry their partner…would you boycott the wedding? Or…would you go, but feel really bad about it internally? like you were doing something wrong? Seems like both sides have a lot to deal with, a lot of internal struggle on that front.
Couple things: Los, muchos kudos for your comments and to everyone else for not turning this into a blog war. There are few places where people can discuss this peacefully.
So, that said, my comment is for AJ. As someone who began to struggle with same-sex attractions in her mid-20s (I’m 32 now), I identify with the shame, fear and confusion you described in your comment. I grew up in the Pentecostal church (’nuff said) and in a macho Caribbean culture where homosexuality is regarded as one of the worst sins ever and coming out equals excommunication from my family.
(I usually comment using my real name but while close friends know about my struggle, my parents don’t — yet. Thanksgiving will be interesting this year. I don’t want them — or anyone else — finding out via the Internets. I’ll blog about it one day.)
About five years ago, I reached a point where I was sick and tired of a) fighting the attractions and b) extremely depressed and suicidal, largely because of my attractions. I decided that I was bisexual and that God loved me regardless. And God did/does love me, as he does anyone else who struggles w/ this. The thing is, as I started going to gay bars, to pursue my attractions, I still felt that God had more for me. I wasn’t finding The One, or satisfaction, in any of those would-be relationships. As a last resort (I gave God an ultimatum), I sought the help of an Exodus ministry in my area, albeit with a lot of skepticism. I thought they would’ve encouraged me to just pray the gay away (which I’d been trying to do for many years) and tell me that marriage was the solution or that if I didn’t change I was going straight to hell.
What happened was exactly the opposite. They didn’t tell me I was going to hell, give me a set of rules, or tell me that God loved me less, or to pray harder or make me sign a petition to make gay marriage illegal. They loved me for who I was and pointed me towards Jesus and encouraged me to seek the root causes of my attractions and the reasons for my confusion. Those causes are too numerous to list here — I’ve written a lot already — but in short I discovered I was looking to fill a legitimate need via another person because of a broken relationship with my dad and sexual abuse as a child.
I’m *not* saying those factors automatically mean someone will be gay but in my case, it was definitely one of the causes. Homosexuality has nothing to do with sex — it’s a relational issue. I didn’t choose to have those feelings, but I chose to stop acting on them and submit them to Christ.
It’s not that I couldn’t be gay and a Christian, it was that I saw and identified myself through the lens of my sexuality and as God’s children, we’re supposed to define ourselves in Christ alone. And, again, God had more for me…
In any case, I’m not trying to tell you what to do…just sharing what worked for me. Through healthy, transparent friendships w/ people in church (and after counseling for my F’d up childhood) my attractions to women have greatly diminished. I still sometimes have them but I’ve learned that my temptations don’t define me and as long as we’re on this side of heaven, we’re all going to be tempted by something. Knowing who I am in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17) is what guides me, not how I feel or what I struggle with.
Sorry for hijacking this post…I’ll shut up now.
OMG. I wrote a lot.
Sorry.
My two cents, for what they’re worth. Peace and blessings to all!
http://tentmakin.blogspot.com/2008/09/out-and-openand-what-now.html
@Temp Anon
That was an amazing and powerful comment. Thank-you for that lucid and piercing declaration of personal honesty and Truth. Wow.
Kyle…interesting read. Though I find it incredibly disheartening that you compare people being in love with or attracted to someone of the same sex the same as murder and child molestation, etc. Don’t see how that type of comparison gets you anywhere….when you could compare it on a more realistic level for your beliefs…which you do later…when mentioning heterosexual adultery and sexual sins. What an incredibly hurtful thing to say….”btw…you are the same as someone who rapes children and kills people.” certainly doesn’t lead to open dialogue with someone who maybe is attracted to the same sex and reading all of this and struggling. But that’s just my two cents, for what it’s also worth.
Just to add to that…being that I worked in a prosecutor’s office for several years, and have seen the real devastation caused by child molestation and murder…and some very gruesome murder and autopsy photos that I will never be able to erase from my mind…and then know some pretty loving gay people who are upstanding, productive members of society…and nothing like the vile child rapists and psychotic murderers that they’re compared to in these discussions…I just can’t get behind that comparison. I realize it’s being done to say something about a sin is a sin….but, yeah. It’s a vile comparison, really. I’ll just shut up now.
@temp anon
thanks for your insight. i agree with a lot of what you said and have done almost all of it. just in a funk i guess and dealing with a new set of issues i haven’t looked at before and it is rocking my world.
more than anything, i just want to be me. and, because my world has been rocked so much lately i have become more honest with friends i have initially held back from. just tired of hiding behind a curtain of what is going on in my mind on a day to day basis. it has been really freeing to be honest with how things are going with all of my friends. they are loving me and pointing me to truth. some of the truth i am not ready to take in and am being disobedient, but at the same time, i am learning things about myself and my faith. it’s just life, and i am in the midst of it.
@Temporarily Anonymous:
Brilliant. I was going to post a similar post about myself but you pretty much hit the hammer on the head. Learning about what happened in my life that in many ways caused my same-sex attraction, and healing those old wounds / unhealthy life patterns has made change possible in a way I couldn’t imagine years ago. Exodus International pretty much saved my life. I’d encourage anyone that’s made it this far down the comments to check out their site to see their statements and opinions on homosexuality.
http://www.exodus.to
@Temp Anon and J
Thank you for this incredible resource. We have a program at Sandals Church that addresses these issues and I am thrilled to find this.
We just discussed Homosexuality at church and how to respond to those who struggle with it, I thought it was great for us to discuss as a body.
My uncle is gay. I love him. He is no less of God’s creation than I am. Jesus loves Him. His sin is no greater than mine, the Bible said that, so I think it is pretty hard for those “better” than gays (in their own eyes) to argue with that.
I don’t agree with the lifestyle, but God doesn’t agree with my lifestyle when I sin. I wonder what would happen if “Coming out of the Closet” applied to all of us. He “came out of the closet” today and admitted to thinking lustfully about that woman. She “came out of the closet” today and admitted to cheating on her taxes. He “came out of the closet” today and admitted to having an affair. Why do those who struggle with the sin of homosexuality get treated any different than others who are hiding their sin behind their own little closet door?
@carie:
That’s something that my fiance and I struggle with constantly. His sister is gay, and she and her partner were married this summer. We love her deeply–she and my fiance are quite close–and we don’t want to see them stop coming to family events or to feel shunned by the family, by any means. However, we don’t agree with her lifestyle. We think that it’s Biblically wrong, and we can’t condone it.
It’s something that we deal with on a situation-by-situation basis… when they got married, we gave them a card and a gift, but the card wasn’t a wedding card, and it made no reference to their marriage. We have chosen to acknowledge his sister’s partner as her partner, rather than her wife, because we believe that marriage is a gift from God between a man and a woman. (Even in that, though, there’s struggle, because how many heterosexual marriages view the covenant between God and two people the way God fully intended it?)
We’re trying to figure it out. We don’t know how we’ll deal with the situation when we have kids and we have to explain to them that we love their aunts, but the way they live makes God sad, just like it makes God sad when we (or they–meaning our kids) lie or are mean to a sibling or whatever. I don’t know how we’ll deal with that when the time comes. I’m not sure how their (and our) choices will continue to affect the family dynamic. We pray for the grace and sensitivity to deal with it day by day, but we don’t know yet what that’ll look like throughout the life of our family.
@Temp Anon: I too grew up in a Pentecostal church, so I got to see firsthand the judgmental attitudes week in and week out. Your story, while I can’t begin to imagine how difficult it was to live, is beautiful. Thank you for posting it here.
Sorry; that first paragraph is a quote from carie’s reply. It was supposed to be italicized, but it wasn’t. Oops!
I think if everyone commenting here actually read the article in the Washington Blade the discussion might center less on homosexuality.
Because what saddens me most for Ray is that he seems to not yet understand what Jesus has been trying to tell him his whole life. Even the titles of his new songs are telling, “God Knows I Tried.”
Jesus doesn’t ask us to try. Or do. Because he knows we can’t. That’s why he had to do it for us. If we focus on “following the rule book” then yeah, we’re going to get real tired after 35 years and give up.
Los, you said it well. I don’t know the guy, I just read one article. But the shocking part of the article for me was not about his sexuality. Rather, it was that the Church had this guy in our midst all these years and we never helped him see that it’s not about DOING.
Ray hasn’t failed us. The Church has failed Ray.
We must stop turning a Relationship into a Religion.
Oy. I’d decided to leave it be, what with the likening homosexuality to murdering and such, but then AJ posted followed by someone lauding Exodus International. And I can’t leave AJ thinking that EI is a good group to get involved with. Because it isn’t.
EI isn’t looking out for their clients’ best interests. I encourage anyone to look up any ex-gay survivor group to see what Exodus International (or one of the other players in the ex-gay industry) all about. What the heck, start here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8uLkNefhkQ
I’ll say it again: Being gay isn’t a sin. Being in love with someone of the same gender isn’t a sin. Having gay sex isn’t a sin. The Bible, outside of a few mistranslations and misappropriations, doesn’t condemn what we would recognize as homosexual relationships.
As for why people get so het up about this issue, I don’t know. I think not having a personal stake in the interpretation of a few bits of scripture leads people to trust what those who purport to know are telling them, rather than looking at it themselves, which is of course preferable.
I also think folks like to have someone to look down on, which is why the Bible has been (and in some places in the world still is) used to justify sexism, racism, classism, etc. This is just a different iteration of that desire. I guess if you’re looking down on someone else, you aren’t looking at your own junk. I’m not even sure most people do that on purpose; it’s just part of our culture that it’s okay to look down on someone.
AJ, please believe me that your desire to be yourself and to be more honest with your friends and family are normal and healthy desires. Trying to make yourself not gay is not healthy. God doesn’t love you in spite of your homosexuality, He loves you in part because of your homosexuality. He made you for a reason, and He didn’t make a mistake that day. He didn’t create you broken or incomplete. He didn’t create you to suffer.
God made you perfectly, and He loves you.
Having gay sex isn't a sin? Did someone rewrite the bible when I wasn't looking? Leviticus 18:22, part of the law given by God to Moses, states "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination" .. and Leviticus 20:13 says "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them" … this sexual act can be found in the scripture between having sex with your mother-in-law and animals.. both of those I'm sure you'd agree on being detestable. but you're saying it's ok to have gay sex? I looked over the hebrew text for both of those passages, and unless you have some knowledge of hebrew that countless other scholars don't, you'll be hard pressed to convince me that God didn't make it pretty plain that it is a sin.
Just because Jesus came and brought forth a covenant of grace, through which we can be redeemed and not live under the Jewish law, doesn't mean God changed his mind about what constitutes sin.
I know that this is already talked about and I’m late… but I have to say that the first thing I thought of was his wife and kids… isn’t it horrible that we’ve become “accustomed to” divorce that we would look at homosexuality as being the “big deal” here?…
How Satan laughs at the site of a christian marriage that dissolves, regardless of how… There is a hurting wife and kids through all of this… but especially a wife. When I read some of the things that he’s said about their marriage relationship, I just cry. I can’t imagine being her.
Praying for the family as well…
@carie:
If after reading my blogpost you got the impression I was comparing homosexuals to murderers or child molesters, I apologize to you and to all who have read it as well. That was absolutely not the point I was trying to make. My point was I don’t believe people are born to become gay in as much as a person is born to become a murderer. After all, if God made a person in such a way how could He pass judgement against their actions? They were simply acting according to their programming. No, my friend, God does not make people gay or murderers or prostitutes or thieves or adulterers. They choose to become such things of their own free will.
Again, I do not think of homosexuals in the same way I think of murderers. Hopefully one can recognize that in the tone of my post. In fact, one of the very Scriptures I linked to was 1 John 4:20. It states very clearly my heart and my intentions.
When it comes to iron sharpening iron, there’s always going to be sparks! Thanks for the comment carie.
@Matt
Please explain a couple of inconsistencies. Why can’t you accept that someone who is gay might not want to be? If there were a heterosexual who wanted to be gay because, let’s say he found out his best friend, whom he dearly loved, came out. My guess is that that would be perfectly healthy to you. That a hetero would attempt to deny his heterosexuality, even if unsuccessfully.
Why, then, can’t someone decide that, “Hey, I’m not happy with this.” Your response is simply, “So what? Be happy anyway!” How is that helpful? A couple of people have weighed in here with a positive experience in Exodus International. You don’t like EI, so your opinion is right and theirs is bogus. By what standard? How is your take superior?
God did not create ANY of us in the condition we are in now. We are who we are as a result of centuries upon centuries of sin. People are born in all kinds of conditions and with all kinds of problems, physical and emotional. God did not create Downs Syndrome or Spina Bifida or cerebral palsy. Nor did He create some to be heterosexual, some to be homosexual, and some to be bisexual.
The purpose of salvation is to RESTORE what has been taken from us by sin. If you are happy being gay, so be it. Have a great life. If there is someone who is not, understand that they are not you. You are no more the epitome of human development than I am with all my hetero “hang-ups.”
@Les
“God did not create ANY of us in the condition we are in now. We are who we are as a result of centuries upon centuries of sin. People are born in all kinds of conditions and with all kinds of problems, physical and emotional. God did not create Downs Syndrome or Spina Bifida or cerebral palsy. Nor did He create some to be heterosexual, some to be homosexual, and some to be bisexual.”
I’ve often wondered about that. If you read the story of Moses and God speaking to him through the burning bush, there comes this part where Moses is arguing with God about going before Pharaoh to speak. Apparently Moses may have had some sort of speech impediment.
“Then Moses said to the LORD, “Please, Lord, I have never been eloquent, neither recently nor in time past, nor since You have spoken to Your servant; for I am slow of speech and slow of tongue.”
11The LORD said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him mute or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?”Ex.4:10&11 NASB
So I’m not really clear on how homosexuals came to be. I’m not really sure if that’s even an issue. As has been said many times, all of us are fallen and struggle with sin. I think the root of why we are unclear on how to handle brothers and sisters who sin, is because we don’t really understand what love is.
Thoughts?
Well, I think many Christians will be praying for Ray. A few more libral churches may still open their doors to him but I expect, and I think he would too, that most mainstream, fundamental churches will not be inviting him to lead praise and worship next Sunday. That is as it should be.
We all have things we struggle with. But to just give in and say, “I’m embrasing this. This is who I am. I’m going to live this way.” Is another matter entirely.
@Shayne:
Thoughts? Absolutely. Shayne you nailed it so well. In responding to one item I can sound more dogmatic than I am and your balance is most welcome.
I’m not clear on how homosexuals came to be either. There is no clear scientific evidence that it’s genetic, but that’s another argument, as you point out. It becomes an issue because it’s used as a rationalization. The hard line is fraught with ambiguities on BOTH sides and that’s my point.
But your main point is the most salient one ANYONE has brought up here so far. WE DON’T REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT LOVE IS. We don’t understand the unimaginable extent of God’s grace. My favorite Scripture of all time: “He remembers that we are dust.” We’re the ones that forget.
God does NOT condemn gays the way we do. He CALLS them to Himself. He wants to heal, and we are His chosen instruments of that healing right now. Sometimes I wonder about the wisdom of His choice there, but, He IS God, so I guess we’ll have to go with it. It just amazes me how those with an agenda grab a phrase that’s intended to help and pour on the acid.
Thank-you for your clarity.
“That being said…I believe that we as Christians judge first and love second.
That is backwards.”
Los, I think I gained some respect for you on that!
I love reading all these comments. I think they are encouraging and dispel much of the myth that all Christians hate homosexuals. This is great. My brother-in-law is gay. I adore him and pray that he always receives my love and would not sense condemnation from me in any way – not my part to play. When he asked me what my thoughts were – wrong or not – I told him that I loved him and that’s all I knew. And that I wanted to encourage him to grow in his love and relationship with God, because He’s the only one who can speak. It’s been a difficult road to walk with him, because of the automatic judgement and scorn he’s received from people, especially those in his old church. Sad. Thanks, AJ & Temp Anon, for sharing your stories. Your realness about your struggles and relationship with God is beautiful.
Here’s a question – asking this out of curiosity because i don’t know and would love to hear from people much smarter than myself…
In the Gospel — creation, sin, redemption, restoration — how would you encourage the redemption and restoration in the life of a homosexual? Would it be different than someone struggling with porn or greed or gluttony and walking through those struggles with them? Is there a win? Again, no ulterior motive here, just wondering. Thanks.
Lile,
I would think it would be much the same as anything else. For a person to be redeemed, they first have to realize there is a need for it. If they don’t think they’re sinners then why do they need a Saviour?
So far, the church has not been so great at showing the world it’s need for a Saviour. But it sure has been great at shoving the Saviour down people’s throats.
I think the best we can do for anyone is to be real. Stand firm in who you are, but be real.
I’ll keep this short. I’ve never heard of your site before and came across it when my brother told me that Ray Boltz, one of my favorite singer-songwriters of my youth. This is the most positive discussion I’ve read on the subject and thank you to all of you for remaining civil. However, it doesn’t matter what any of us think. It matters what God thinks. If you and I don’t accept that, then pretty much nothing else you can say or think on the topic matters. And clearly God still loves each person no matter the sin, but many of us Christians have lost all respect for God and forgotten how holy He is and what He calls us to. We must reject sin and try to draw nearer to God so He will draw closer to us. Sin is what separates us. If it didn’t, there would have been no need for Christ to die on the cross. If we truly love Ray and others in this situation we will show love. We will not reject them. But if we truly love them, we will not accommodate the sin. I’ve had many friends who were gay. I’ve seen families torn apart by this particular sin, as I have by other sins. If we love the Lord first and foremost he will help us “overcome”. Sadly, this rush to acceptance of homosexuality is being birthed more out of political correctness than true Christian “Agape” love. I pray that we will love first, judge last but hold true to the truth that never changes.
I guess I didn’t keep it as short as I thought. Sorry…
Should be focusing on school work- but once again, Los’ blog has my attention diverted…ahh!
I sat and read the newest post post from Anonymous, wondering what the HECK people were talking about “AJ” and “Ray”- and then realized that THIS was the post that I missed. So, I’m here to start at the root of this discussion (I also responded to the other post).
I am a christian- and a lesbian. I “struggled”, for lack of a better word, for a long time with what I had been taught VS. what I knew to be true for myself. I was raised in a christian home, with God fearing parents & a true love for Christ. When I came to terms with being a lesbian I did a lot of reading, questioning, & picking other people’s minds to find out what everyone else thought of the “issue”. In the midst, I found MY truth. And while the shoe may not fit anyone else, it fits snug as a bug for me. Here is my truth:
I am a God fearing woman that was saved at the age of 16, and has learned to better understand the heart of God as a servant for other people. I believe that you cannot lose your religion, so my salvation is secure. I believe that we become Christians in order to tell others about Christ & inherit HIS kingdom. Which then begs the question- if I know without a shadow of a doubt that I am a Christian, and I tell others about Christ through working with others to spread the gospel- then why does being a lesbian become my defining characteristic? That was the question that I had to answer for myself. After looking to others for their guidance, I found that I only needed HIS guidance. I was so focused on the way that others defined me, that I forgot to look back to his truths.
Awhile back, I got into a discussion with a youth pastor’s wife about homosexuality. I asked her what she ultimately thought about me- knowing all of the facts (I was saved, I told others about Christ, I was actively seeking the heart of God)- and here’s what she said.
“I just think living in sin constitutes a life distant from God.”
“Do you think I’m going to hell when I die?”
“No, I just think you won’t be as close to him as you could be.”
“Like, I’ll be down the hall or something?” “So you think Heaven is layered based on how bad of a person you were?”
“Well no, I just think you won’t be as close to him as you should be, that’s all.”
That’s when I started finding my own truth in The Word. I think everyone, gay or straight, has their own reasons for the things they do. The reason someone marries an abusive husband could be the reason that someone chooses women over men. The list goes on. Perhaps we should focus on the real truth of Christ, and inheriting his kingdom- rather than judging WHY people do what they do.
@ Les- I don’t think that Matt was saying EI doesn’t work as much as he was saying that they have a greater number of cases where people resume being gay than those converted. And a lot of people feel that’s because it doesn’t resolve the “real” issue, it just suppresses the urge to act on being gay. While I’ve never tried any of those types of programs, I had a friend who committed suicide after coming out of EI because of the added confusion.
Those are my thoughts. Thanks, Los, for giving us a space to share ideas and beliefs with other people. Now I’m going to TRY to get back to work!!
I’ve posted comments to Los’s blog before (and have read for months), but since I’m going to discuss something only my closest friends know, I’ll post anonymously today.
My 15 year old son came out to me just before Christmas last year.
I, like many of you, have gay friends (some Christian). I have one friend who has done his best to be a friend to my son and be a good influence (this man is a celibate gay Christian), but my son has decided that “gay” is the most important adjective in his self-definition.
I have often thanked God for not asking me (personally) to bear this particular cross. I know my friend would love nothing more than to marry and be a father — but that’s not who he is. Now God has given this cross to my son, and he’s chosen to turn his back on God and go his own way. It’s heartbreaking. It’s sad to know the ostracism your child will face, but to have him say he’s agnostic on top of it… that’s so much worse. You look back and wonder if there’s something you did wrong as a parent. There are no answers; there is no comfort. All I can do is pray for my son, and be the best mother I can.
Thanks for the follow-up Kyle P! I appreciate your response and clarification.
@ Anonymous Mom- for some reason, that age encourages being gay as your only defining characteristic. And, sadly, being “gay” has become a trend that denotes popularity and acceptance. As someone who has taken this journey through hills and valleys it is hard to see this new generation take on such a large issue with such irresponsibility. My niece makes comments about wanting to have a “gay” friend at school- to which I don’t respond because I don’t want having a gay “aunt” to be her defining characteristic. At 15, he is still looking to find his own way- pray for his protection while we’re praying for you. I’d be happy to give you my email if you need it.
Well, well, what an interesting string of comments…. first of all to the comment about people nowadays living in cheap grace… of course it is cheap grace… IT WAS FREE!!! And thank Jesus for it being FREE as I could not personally pay the price that his grace is truly worth!
Further, it should be noted that nothing we do that is “good” can make God love us more, nor can anything that we do that is “bad” can make him love us less. He loves us regardless of our sin and that is why he sent Jesus to die for our sins… including homosexuality, pride, gluttony, murder, lying, etc. Until we all understand that our relationship with Christ is not about us being “good” but about His Righteousness and Love we will constantly fight over who is better than who and how I am getting better and sinning less and that other people aren’t. This life in Christ is about so much more than that… it is about FREEDOM in him and relationship with him no matter where we are in each of our lives!
Sin is sin. We all sin and therefore are all sinners. Even after salvation we continue to sin and will do so as long as we breathe on this earth. However, God loves us regardless and continues to pursue us day in and day out. I do believe that knowing that you will sin is different than accepting sin in your life and saying “oh well!” Resignation is not what we have been called to…. JESUS CALLED US TO RECONCILIATION!!! Reconciliation to him and reconciliation to others.
I praise the God that loves me so much that he would reconcile me and decide to offer me the FREE gift of his grace even knowing that I would continue to sin! And I praise the God that does not require perfection of me but substitutes his for me so that I would have the chance to make it. I praise the same God that loves Ray and is in pursuit of his heart in all things and sees him as his child whom he loves and cherishes and not as filth… cause God sees the blood of Christ on Ray and not Ray’s sin!
With all that said… I have struggled with addiction my whole life… from drugs and alcohol to sexual issues and pornography. From the sinful impact of sexual abuse as a child to the horrible effects of me not letting God meet me in the midst of my struggles and sin. Not until I saw no other choice did I invite God in to meet me where I was did I realize that had I had people in my church that would love me inspite of my sins and hold me instead of molest me and speak loving truth over me instead of judgmental words of hate and pity. I do believe that had I seen Christ’s love through people that “GOT IT” sooner that I would have likely been able to avoid much of the pain I have caused myself.
Thank God for giving me loving people that finally saw the truth that God desired relationship with me just as he desired relationship with them, even though they had a hard time getting over the fact that some of my sins were seemingly much worse than theirs. Through Christ’s strength and urging they did get past it and chose to love me regardless of my sins and choices just as Jesus did. Once they did that something spectacular happened… I started to change once day at a time, well actually one choice at a time.
God is delivering me one relationship and loving rebuke at a time, one counseling session at a time and one small group meeting at a time. God is speaking to me in ways that I thought were impossible because I had believed the lies and hatred that told me that I was not welcome in the body of Christ until I was perfect and no longer struggled with sin, at least not openly!
I just pray that some of the people that truly get and understand the true RADICAL NATURE OF THE GOSPELL get to Ray before too many other Christians bombard him and speak good intentioned half-truths over him… May God meet him in the midst of his struggle. May God meet all of us in our struggles!!! That is the beauty of this thing we call a personal relationship with Christ! It is life-changing… even if slowly from day to day… it is still life changing nonetheless.
I know I have written a lot but this strikes a cord in me and really brings back so many things from my life. I just praise God that people finally showed me the love that God wanted to show me and have helped set my feet on a firm foundation and move toward Christ.
I will also tell you that the Church must realize that for every one Ray, there is probably 5 others sitting ont he sidelines afraid to say anything or to ask for help. Let us love those people that openly deal with homosexuality and all sins for that matter in such a way that others would finally see that they can come to us as Christians brothers and sisters and ask us to walk with them and love them towards Christ in their own struggles with homosexuality and other sins. You may not see them but they are watching you and reading your words on here… trust me I was one of them not too long ago!
Much love in Christ! And now I will quit with the long thesis! Sorry!
Aaron
In response to Les’s question: I’m not about to engage in hypothetical tennis with you. You speak of homosexuality as if it were an infirmity to be overcome or a personal failure to be forgiven. It is neither.
I oppose Exodus International and other parts of the ex-gay industry because they prey on people at their most vulnerable. And instead of helping them, Exodus International applies spiritual and psychological torture. This is not outrageous hyperbole, it is fact. When applied as prescribed, Exodus International teachings actively harm people.
@ IfYou’reHappyAndYouKnowIt – Agreed… but teens have never known when they’re playing with fire (I sure didn’t). I am most assuredly praying for my son’s protection daily.
I’d love to have your email if you’re willing to share it.
@Matt
Hypothetical? There are two positive comments from people who claim to have been helped by EI. There is you. I know nothing of it yet except what I’ve read here so I need more information. But your words are more infused with bitterness than reason, while theirs seem to contain a great deal of peace, however poignant.
Your rage seems barely contained, evidenced in the very selective way you’ve read the comments posted. You twist the words and ignore intent. Why? How do you know what everyone needs? How do you know what my heart contains? Or AJ’s?
And if you don’t want to play, why return the serve?
Anonymous Mom-
Email me @ stategrl66@yahoo.com & I’ll give you the address I use regularly!
Hi Los! It’s me… David, your buddy from Sandals. Thanks for putting me on blast!!! Ha ha ha. Looks like a good discussion!
@Aaron
RE: “I praise the God that loves me so much that he would reconcile me and decide to offer me the FREE gift of his grace even knowing that I would continue to sin! And I praise the God that does not require perfection of me but substitutes his for me so that I would have the chance to make it.”
YES! That whole thing was GOOD. I’m going back to read it again…
by: Russ Breimeier
ChristianityToday.com
“I’ve gotta start by saluting my colleague Ted Olsen, the News Director for Christianity Today magazine. He’s a true newshound when it comes to finding articles—nothing slips by him. Just this past Friday, he sent me a message asking if I was planning to do any coverage concerning Ray Boltz, the best-selling inspirational singer from the ’80s and ’90s long associated with Promise Keepers.
As it turns out, Ray Boltz openly announced that he is gay in an exclusive interview with the Washington Blade, a gay and lesbian publication. You can read more and find a link to the interview in our Scoop news wrap-up. After retiring from Christian music in 2004, Boltz settled matters with his family, quietly divorcing his wife in 2005. He apparently still has the love and support of his family, according to the story in the Blade.
Talk about your bombshells. Over the weekend, I kept thinking, Oh man … God, how am I going to address this one in the newsletter next week?
Homosexuality is a hot-button topic that polarizes many in the Church, the primary source of contention being whether you believe that gay people are embracing a lifestyle that they know to be sinful or that they’re embracing the way God made them. Just to let you know where I’m coming from as an evangelical Christian, I believe homosexuality is wrong, just as I believe any sin is wrong. But believe me, the last thing I want is a flood of e-mails trying to argue one side or the other. There are better places to openly debate this subject than my mailbox. (The posted responses at CT’s blog concerning Boltz demonstrates the varied reactions.)
For the scope of this newsletter, I’m more interested in what the fan reaction will be to the news about Boltz. Many will say the singer’s future work should be ignored from now on, unless he reverses his position. Christian Music Today is inclined to agree, though Boltz has already retired from music.
On the other hand, this news does not negate our past coverage of Ray Boltz—we’ve only reviewed one of his albums, 2002’s Songs from the Potter’s Field, in our 9-year history. By the same token, I wonder how many of you will still be blessed by Boltz’s past work. Will you still listen to his albums or still sing his songs in church?
It’s a little ironic that Boltz is best known for “Thank You,” the hit song he wrote about the cloud of witnesses we’ll meet in heaven someday, testifying to how we play some small part in building one another up for God’s kingdom. I can’t say whether Boltz will be there or not—God is his judge, not me. But Boltz has still inspired many with his music, if not led them to the Lord through his songs. For that much, I think people can still sing “Thank You,” to encourage others in their walk and in gratitude for Boltz’s past contributions to Christian music.”
@Aaron
My comment previously about our generation wallowing in “cheap grace” is that we have cheapened grace. We have taken the notion that just because it is “free” it gives us license to sin and that makes it okay. And it wasn’t free either. Someone had to pay the price. We loose sight of that.
@Ashley:
Grace IS free to us. And, in all practical purposes we are free to sin, and God will still love us the same. I want to understand Isaiah 64:6 a little bit better. It says that our righteous act are filthy rags. To me, when we rely on our actions to somehow determine our standing before God we take on a “me” centered gospel that says we have something to do with our redemption. Not the case at all. Still sorting through all of this and not saying I will continue in sin because of this truth either.
@AJ
Every time you post I’m impressed with something. I would add that when we mess up and our heart (which only God knows) is not to, we are already forgiven. It’s not something we have to beg for. I’ve had many times where I’ve repeated sins I would love to be forever free from, but am not yet, and I’ve come to thank God for forgiving me as opposed to asking Him to do what He’s already done.
As has been said before, and which there is no harm in repeating, God’s grace is way more enormous than we can imagine. And only He knows how He’s going to sort it all out. So I’ve decided that I’m not going to judge people, even if I think they’re “continuing in sin.” That’s because I’m SO not worthy to do so. I have my own struggles. I’m not about to criticize those whose struggle is exponentially more difficult than mine.
My understanding of Scripture is that homosexual acts are sinful acts. I’ll apply that to me, not to others. Even those who are “unrepentant.” They are in God’s hands, not mine. I’ll love them, and support them if they want it, and leave them alone if they don’t. I believe I’ll be pleasantly surprised when I get to heaven and find friends there that I was afraid wouldn’t go. I’ll love God all the more for that.
@Ashley
“My comment previously about our generation wallowing in “cheap grace” is that we have cheapened grace. We have taken the notion that just because it is “free” it gives us license to sin and that makes it okay.”
The truth is that we as humans have no power to cheapen grace. How can we cheapen such an amazing act by Jesus? We just can’t cheapen that… he died for us knowing that we were all filthy sinners and that we would continue to be so until called to heaven at the end.
I never meant that Jesus did not pay a hefty price for the grace that is free to us… quite the opposite, meaning that he paid a price that only he could pay because he knew that we would never be able to add up enough to make the payment ourselves.
Further, Jesus came to set us free and to give us freedom. Free means free! Therefore, I do believe that we are free to continue sinning or not sinning (which I wish I could master!). However, I do not think it is ok to sin, as sin is sin and therefore never ok. However, we are free to turn to Christ in a situation or not. We are free to trust him in every area of our every day or not. I do not think we have a license to sin without consequence. There are always consequences for what we do… however, after becoming a christian if you should continue to sin one of the consequences that you may face IS NOT LOSING THE LOVE OF GOD OR THE GIFT OF HIS GRACE. Will there be other consequences… oh goodness YES… and I wish I were not living with them every day. Regardless, I am still experiencing his love and grace admidst my consequences.
The beauty about Jesus and his death on the cross is that he did it knowing full well what you and I were like before salvation and even how we would be after salvation. He did not do it because he thought that if he did we would stop sinning and be perfect… he knew that would never happen!
Now… to follow up on my comment that if we are free in Christ, then we are free to either sin or not to sin… I want to clarify a bit. I do believe that when a person truly encounters such a love that will continue even if they sin that they will begin to change and so will the actions, the notion of producing fruit. However, the change does not come because of mastering sin and never sinning again but rather the change comes in the heart and how we begin to relate to God.
I truly believe that our Christian walks are so much more about our hearts and our daily relationship with God rather than about our actions and our sin. Our hearts and relationship with God are a work in progress.
My counselor often states to me “Aaron, we are looking for progress not perfection during this life… as perfection will only come in death when we go meet our Saviour!” That line has freed me up so much from the trappings of religion and trying to earn favor in God eyes… that I can finally talk with God and relate with him instead of hiding from him in fear as though he were a task-master keeping a list and checking it twice… Praise JESUS that he is GOD and not Santa! Cause if he were like Santa… not only would I not have presents under the tree, I would not even have a dang tree!
Ok so apparently I cannot write a short post… sorry! But this all means so much to me… cause only over the past year have I begun to experience freedom and grace. And I hate that I lost so much time along the way because of good-intentioned people telling me to quit sinning or else God will get me and remove the blessing from me…. Oh wow… which brings up a whole other subject… blessings are not things we earn… cause if they were we would never get any! Blessings are what God gives to us inspite of us never being able to earn them… hence the reason they are blessings and not wages earned from good works.
Ok for real sorry… I am done! I need to take a breath! Ha ha ha
I really enjoy your postings, Aaron. Don’t worry about the length, b/c you write really great, interesting stuff!
http://www.gregstier.org/rants/ray-gay-say-it-isnt-so
You know, I’m a little tired of so many people making accusations of “judging” because of those who say that homosexuality is a sin. Judging is making your own call on something. If I was walking down the street and saw a guy with a pink t-shirt and said, “Oh, he’s homosexual,” then that would be judging because I really don’t know. But stating what the Bible says about homosexuality (that it’s bad) isn’t judging-it’s just repeating God’s opinion, which is the only one that matters. On top of that, the Bible says that God “desires truth in the inward parts.” God wants not just the outside sins (the actions) dealt with, but the inside (desires, cravings), too. He wants to set us all straight with whatever sins we struggle with.
@David:
You need to tone it down. Chose your words and tone carefully because it comes across hateful with such a sensative subject. Just say’n.
Why can’t we just call a sin a sin. Ray has ruined his reputation and witness. I hold nothing back with this. He needs prayer and needs to repent of this horrible sin. I am not politically correct and don’t care to be. Not being rude, just honest. Scripture tells us right and wrong and the gay lifestyle is wrong. It is condemned over and over.(1 Cor. 6, Rom 1, Lev 18&20″it is an abomination”) We don’t make the moral rules, God does and He describes clearly what homosexuality is. I am not judging just stating fact. If people don’t like it, take it up with God. Pray about it and He will open your eyes that have been clouded over by society and the “god” of this world.
Wait a minute–
The sin of “Bearing False Witness” is serious enough to be one of the Ten Commandments. There is no Commandment against homosexuality.
Is not the sin of lying to his wife for the past thirty years (which breaks the Commandments) a greater sin than finally admitting to homosexuality?
I was stunned, but after reading his article I understood. I have been through that road as well. I know the freedom he talks of and I know the deeper love I have for God. My music is finally in my heart. I read a comment here that stated “I can smell the Judgementalism now” It is that reason that I stay to myself, even in the church I am attending and playing for. Christians here, most not all, tend to judge first then seek. I am not in a relationship but rather I have remained to myself. I will pray for Ray like Mike Warnke he has a LONG journey ahead because some Chrisitan can be the worst Judges.
why ray ? i don’t understand. is the the price of losing your wife and children.for the love of a man going to be worth it”