I Think In ‘09 I’ll Try And Work At…
Let me premise this mini post by saying I have worked in 2 churches in the past 10 years. Albeit 9 of those years were at Sandals and one of those at Buckhead.
Do you feel the Lord is ok with the way many people change church jobs like they change laptops?
Every 18 months or so it’s time for an upgrade or a change…
I don’t know. I never thought I would leave Sandals Church. Ever. And here I sit.
One of the first things I remember is Jeff HEnderson looking me square in the eyes and saying…”I want this to be the last church job you ever have.”
That said a lot to me. Commitment is HUGE around here. And a year later I’m glad to know that I am exactly where I’m supposed to be.
So with all that lalala bullcrap sugar coating I just got done typing…
Do you guys find it strange to see church leaders hopping churches like baseball players in the minor leagues?
Los
* I amended the title for less angst in the conversation…:)
RAIN IT DOWN
Yes! At our church it is our youth ministers. I’ve been a member for 5 years and have seen going on 5 YMs. Our latest just announced they are leaving and have only been here almost a year.
Whenever the church of my childhood ended up going through a pastoral search process I thought it was really weird that we went “shopping” for a pastor. Definitely felt like we were negotiating for a AA league closing pitcher. Then again, one of the pastors from my childhood was at my church for 12 yrs and the minister of music was there for 40 yrs before retiring…
I think it defies what the word church really means.
Its not the ideal, however…
Some are called to plant, others water… I think if Paul could spend a year or a week and plant in a place that is cool. If a pastor can spend 20 years in a place, that is awesome. It is likely however, since metro areas are transient, that he would not have to move to see his congregation change. Also, sometimes things simply just do not work out. I would hate to judge pastors by things they cannot control.
I dunno. Didn’t Jesus move around a lot? Seriously, I can’t generalize about whether it is good or bad. First, I think it has to be considered on a case-by-case basis, and besides, God got a little tiffed when Aaron and Miriam got upset over the Ethiopian wife…
My question is, WHY are they moving?
yeah, i guess my question would be who are we to judge a person who is being called to go somewhere else…
there’s, obviously, two sides to this coin.
abusive churches vs. insecure hirelings
… sad, dangerous, tragic.
Funny, I don’t see what you seem to be referring to…I’m curious what ‘church leaders’ have been moving around year after year? One thing I’ve noticed working in a 50-person staff church is that even ‘normal’ turnover can seem like a lot. Case in point, if 5 people leave a year that means on average people are staying 10 years, but the 5 a year leaving sure feels like a lot more than that. Funny…this comes right as I’m contemplating a shift…
Nobody judging here.
Believe me.
I was accused of using Sandals as a stepping stone.
That would be a pretty loooooooooooooong stone.
Again.
How much is too much?
Maybe it is not answerable.
It is just weird to me. Maybe because the culture I grew into ministry at was soooo gangsta.
Who knows.
I think Rich makes a great point. Some are called/gifted to plant, others to cultivate, others to mend and fix, others to challenge, etc.
I think it really depends on the combination of church/staff. Some churches value long term investment and can see the payoff of investing in the lives of their staff. Other churches value immediacy and results and if you can’t produce, you’re outta there. Maybe neither wrong, just different.
So then there’s the US part. Some of us aren’t wired to stick in one place of ministry, whether geographical or positional…
My preference – what sits right in my heart? A church where family is crucial, teamwork, and investment are highly valued. Where a commitment to cultivating staff and seeing that healthy growth happens from the inside out. So for me, I’d love to see churches be more committed to their staff, and their staff more committed to their churches (which equals people being committed to relationships). I’ve said too much…
I can’t really give much insight from experience as the group at my church back home have been at that church forever. I’ll probably echo some of the comments above, but some people are called to move. Some more than others. Yes, there are going to be some, just like in every aspect of life, who move for THEM and not HIM.
.
Some churches need different leadership and someone has to fill that hole. People, even pastors, get old and move on. Some people are great “fixers”, but not real good at longevity. They come in, get things energized and focused on God, maybe in a different way and then move on to their next stop. I have no problem with that. Actually, I have no problem with any of it. If they’re doing things for the wrong reasons, God is watching, so I don’t need to. He is using even those people to advance His Kingdom. Bottom line: It’s all good
I wonder if God is really in each persons move to another church? Growing up going to church, I’ve seen people come and go. But almost 100% of the time, it was “oh God called us to another church”. You knew good and well they were leaving because of some problems in upper management or the church was on the decline. Why not pony up and say you just aren’t feeling it anymore and stick it out? Don’t be a church job quitter!
Grew up spiritually in this church. Now working here. Think will stay here for the rest of my life until perhaps I go church plant. It will of course be under the same church covering.
But having said that, that’s really just my will.
For God’s will, I do believe He will call people to go elsewhere (other churches). If that happens,I think most of the time it has to be because He wants us to go more that we want to go. Think gotta hear from God and do a human check, ie. 1) If it takes courage to go, then go. 2) But if courage is required to stay, then stay.
When God calls us, usually faith is involved so gotta involve courage and trust. So check that as much as it is possible.
Otherwise, we have to make up things along the way and that’s not a good feeling and not a good way to go. ;-p
Pretty much everyone in my family is a pastor and I used to work as a denominational staff member. My father current job is primarily working to help churches find pastors. In my experience (which is not primarily with large churches that have more than 1 or 2 staff) the church pushes the pastor out more often than not. But I also have heard it commented on by many African American pastors that by the time they start getting to know a White pastor he is gone. In general an African American pastor is called to a church and stays there until they die. Not everything is healthy about that, but it is stable.
I want the job I’m in to be my last ministry job – meaning I want to stay here forever. However, I’m pushing 35, and I won’t waste my life in a place that won’t be relevant, reaching, and relational. This church presently is none of the above. So, either I change it in the next 6 months or so (been here almost 2 years) or I find a place that is willing to be those three things.
I think it comes down to finding the right fit so you can stay for the long hall.
It’s a difficult thing to think about.
I lead (with a salaried position) in a church for 2 years. In my case, the entire relationship with the church was one-way: My wife and I were pouring ourselves out continuously, but nothing was coming back in. The teaching was only so-so, and there was noone to encourage us, teach us, mentor us, or even just be our friends. So this ultimately took it’s toll and we reached a point where we were completely exhausted and had nothing left to give anyone…
Even still, we stayed for a while trying to promote some changes that would hopefully improve the situation, but the pastor didn’t have the same vision, so we ultimately had to move on. When we came back to the church where we’re at now, we took a 6-month recovery period where we didn’t help with anything just so we could get our heads back on straight…
But I imagine that many of the folks back at the old church feel betrayed or abandoned. I’m afraid that they think we were insincere in our love for them because we ultimately left them. We’ve even heard rumors from them that we’re getting a divorce, which is a little hurtful.
So, all that to say, I think it’s really a pastor’s responsibility to watch out for that stuff… our pastor could have made it a lot easier to stay, and he could have managed the rumor mill after we left….
We had technical issues at church this week, so the sermon the Lead Teaching Pastor was giving did not make it to the room we were in. Another pastor came in and gave a sermon kind of on the fly, but it worked well.
His message was on listening to God when he calls, and the pastor was very candid about an experience he had when someone came up to him in our church and told him that God wanted him to move to Pennsylvania to start a new church. The pastor had no desire to make such a move and told the man such. Two weeks later the man returned and asked the pastor again and asked if he had prayed about it. The pastor said no. He knew steadfastly that this is where God wanted him. I can’t say what the soliciting man was hearing from God, but long story short, this pastor is still with us.
I am pretty sure that often churches have built a management/leadership culture that produces short stays. It is almost like we have always done it that way, want it to change, but don’t want to change us, we want the preachers to change. It is going to have to come from both sides.
My first church Job, I was paid 300 dollars a month. Change was inevitable. I lived simply, but had to work 2 other obs to make ends meet. I cheated everyone in the process.
Stability breeds strong relationships and strong community. We cheat ourselves as a church when we try to treat the parish as a corporate ladder to be climbed.
Leadership isn’t leadership if you can’t stick around. The first two years really don’t even count…it takes that long to build a few, strong trusting relationships.
It’s difficult for me to envision God ripping the hearts of people in churches so often. Seems more to that the ‘leader’ has minimal skill sets or has played out their bag of tricks.
However, God does move people. I certainly don’t think it’s a knee jerk reaction that happens often.
I’ve got mixed emotions on this one. I was raised in a home where my family (grandparents/parents) went for over 40 years and my grandmother still goes there. My parents left about 15 years ago when a new minister came and things really got ugly. I remember leaving being the hardest decision they ever made.
Now they’ve been at this church for 15 years, and I can;t imagine them leaving.
So when I came here and was worship leader at a church for 4 years, then went and helped rebuild a ministry for 6 months, and have been at my current home church for 2 years; my parents have often questioned my commitment level.
Ironically, I received a prophetic word about 5 years ago in which the Lord said I was a planter, and I would never be in a place for more than 5 years before moving on to plant somewhere else.
I have not walked in that calling of a planter, but I do think there is such a thing, and commend those who are willing to walk in that calling.
I think its about personal conviction and calling.
its a sticky subject
If it is self led yes…..your title says it all….”I think”…I have seen pastors come and go at our church and the one thing I can say is that there is a distinct difference in the ones that were led by the Spirit and the ones that were more about self. The ones that were more about “I” dont have a tendency to stay for very long. It is a touchy subject, but again there is a distinct difference in making decisions being led by the Spirit and self….just my thoughts
if were being honest sometimes its money. The only way a lot of times to get “a raise” is to change jobs or to at least change roles at your current organization. That’s life sometimes. Your current gig a lot of times has a ceiling where you start only progressing by the COST OF LIVING increase. But if you were at 0 kids and now you have 4. Sometimes God calls you away pretty easily. Kids gotta eat.
I know that may seem unspiritual, but I wasn’t “called” to a life of poverty. (I know that was extreme, we are all rich in America, just saying…)
I think that it is a best case scenario for someone to stay in a ministry position for an extended amount of time. On the other hand I think that it is more important to be lead by God than to be concerned what people might think. If and when transition is appropriate to make sure that transition is handled properly. If you are thinking of making a move, be sure and check your motives and make sure that the timing is good for all involved, the right thing at the wrong time can end up messy.
For the rest of us, I would hope that we would be slow in jumping to conclusions. Granted many people transition for the wrong reasons, but “to everything there is a season, a time for every purpose under the sun”. We may think we know, but many times we have no idea what God is doing in the lives of others. Although we want to provide counsel and guidance, I for one do not want to stand in the way of God’s will for another.
I saw several replies that kind of hinted at the first thought that came to my mind and those were concerning the environment and culture at a church. Growing up, I had six youth pastors in six years. As a student I kept thinking it was our (students) fault. Now that I’m older and have worked on staff at that church, I’ve come to realize it was mainly due to the Senior Pastor and the culture he fostered, and continues to foster.
As for pastors that hop from place to place every couple years, I’m sure there are many reasons. But from what I’ve seen, while God does have “planters” whom He moves from place to place, there are also a lot of pastors that, when faced with conflict either succumb to it or run from it, hopping pastors being the latter.
I grew up in a Pastor’s home where the longest we were ever at a church was 8 years and he is now at the 2nd longest church which is 5 years… My dad is called to help dying churches become rejuvenated! He would love to stay at this church until he retires, but God is doing something and I am not saying that he is feeling a pull away, but something is about to happen and I don’t even know what that is going to look like.
I am called to the ministry also and the pastor I work under has been there for 25 years and still feels the call to stay at our church.
I don’t want to be one of those 2 years or under youth pastors that jump from church to church… I really want to be a long timer!
I think longevity has to do with the gifts that God has given the Pastor…
In my over 32 years being in ‘charasmatic/evangelical/pentecostal’ churches, I have been fortunate enough to not witness much head pastor turnover. Personally, as a congregation member, I have moved around to different churches because I have lived in a wide geographic area.
I have found the church planters tend to be upfront about their calling. And in denominations, the head pastor will often want to stay, but he has to go where the denomination sends him. Not sure the purpose in that – if it’s not broke….
The most moving and shifting I’ve witnessed has come from the associate pastor level- children’s, youth, music, etc. To me, it takes a certain type of person to be a leader – in or out of church. To put that person in one position for the rest of their life, with a glass ceiling, is to slowly suffocate him. It’s not that he wants to leave, but the very nature of what makes him great at his job is that he is always thinking ahead, moving forward, upwards and outwards. At some point, he is going to have to spread and go elsewhere.
My husband’s current boss is realistic. He is current and relevant as a music pastor in his late 20’s. But he realizes that in 20+ years, he may not be quite so relevant. He is getting his PhD so he will be able to teach when he is not hip enough to lead worship. How many 60-somethings are awesome youth or children’s pastors?
To everything, there is a season.
I grew up in the United Methodist and the lead pastors were shuffled around all the time, sometimes as often as every two years. Pros: New set of eyes, sharing the wealth. Cons: Too much power in the “board of ministries”, The same guy that baptized you probably won’t be around to do your wedding.
I would also say some of it has to do with specific pastoral gifts you may have. I’ve known a few pastors like Arielle said, whose calling was to help sow new life in churches.
I’m currently non-pastoral staff at a United Methodist church, where pastors are appointed by a bishop & cabinet, higher up than the specific church. I didn’t grow up in this style, but some of my understanding of it is that it should help the church to be healthy as a whole body & not just a pastor’s personality. Another way of looking at it, I guess.
Ya know, this is an interesting question. I’ve thought about it before actually. Why do people in ministry seem to move around? I’m not trying to judge what their motives are. I believe that God can shift our plans whenever He wants to. I am in ministry and, looking back, I can’t say that I ever thought I would end up where I am today.
Here’s my take on this. I volunteered at my church for years before becoming a full-time staff member. In that time of volunteering here and there I began to believe in the vision of the church. I began to identify with where the leadership believed they were headed. When I came on staff I was completely committed to doing what I could to facilitate that vision, believing in what the leadership saw for our community.
So, for me, and I’m not saying that everyone is the same in this, but I am so invested in the vision of this church that I can’t see myself just picking up and moving. I am committed to what God wants to do in this area.
But, like I said earlier, God can shift our plans, and does shift our plans, so anyway……
It seems to me that you have to stay, maybe not forever, to make a lasting impact. When you stay, you invest more.
I’m confident that God indeed calls people out of one ministry and into another in order to accomplish His will in both places. It is often just as surprising to the person moving as it is to the church members being left behind. It is personally challenging to watch those who are called unexpectedly, step up and respond unswervingly to God’s direction to move.
I’m equally confident that some serving in vocational ministry do indeed try to call the shots themselves sometimes, in an effort to increase their own influence or to build their resume. This stone-stepping, while at its core is a wrong motive, can also be used by God to accomplish His will in both places.
And then there are churches like ours here in Raleigh, where we just celebrated 30 years of ministry…with our founding pastor still leading us as senor pastor. That kind of continuity has been a good thing. It might not always be, but here at Providence Baptist, it has been.
I’m one of five pastors at a church in Michigan. Two of the guys have been here for 30+ years, two of the guys have been here for 10+ years and I’m the newest (and youngest) and have been here for 5 years and I really think that staying at the same church has two great benefits:
1. Stability. It allows people to appreciate the commitment of the mission when the leaders stick around.
2. Understanding of the culture. Too often when churches hire outside of themselves, neither party knows what they are getting into. There are so many cultural nuances that are impossible for the opposite party to predict, and often it leads to different expectations.
I feel like most of the time people use the term “calling” as an excuse to get out of commitment. In fact I’d be hard pressed to ever use that term unless I heard God’s audible voice, which is a whole other subject…
That said… I do think there are a few very legitimate reasons for leaving one church and going to another, don’t get me wrong.
Great thoughts guys. Isn’t it cool we do things for “reasons” and I think as long as our “reasons” revolve around Christ, we’re pretty much in the clear.
I think opportunities come up and people take them as signs from God. I think when “doors open,” some people say I’m going UNLESS God tells me to stop. The older I get the more I don’t move until I hear from God. There are things we are called to already (serving the poor, forgiveness of others, ect) that we don’t need to hear from God on, but I think too many people see an opportunity-do what they want and ask God to throw a truck in front of them to stop it if it isn’t right. Is that the “right way to live?” I don’t know? But it does provide for alot of moves
Everyone moves around, it’s inevitable, but I think the important thing it so hear from God THEN go.
G
Simone: I agree with to everything there is a season. That is my experience too.
Los: You’re living the dream! As great as Sandals and Buckhead experiences are for you … God placed you at those places. Keep counting your blessings.
Dan: I believe being in ministry is a calling not a job. I don’t believe in the changing churches like underwear but there are somethings beyond our control.
I was employed at a Phoenix Mega church for six months after being fired under the guize of “Restructuring.” I did everything I could to find another seat on that bus. I was hired cause I had the 3 C’s … but I get big church politics at some places.
I am not for changing jobs like underwear. It is tough to make blanket statements about this stuff cause it’s situation is so different. According to Dan Miller, the average length of a job in America is 3.2 years. That’s about 14/16 changes over a work lifetime.
I think I can speak for everyone in ministry that we all want to hear some day, “Well done! Good and Faithful servant.”
I’m been at two churches in the past 5 years. I think it takes about 3 years to know if there is potential for growth; both personally and within the ministry level you are working.
Leaving where I was before, was and still stands as the hardest decision of my life. And was and still is the best decision I could have made.
I love that you guys are talking about this civilly.
We all have been on both sides.
I just like it when we look at them with both sets of eyes.
You guys rock
crazy, i was just talking about this today– i think it’s so important when taking a ministry job that you are comfortable enough with the people, place, and vision that you can commit to a certain amount of time. i am in youth ministry, so i feel that for me it is 4-6 years minimum– one entire cycle of kids. less than that and i don’t think the work i do can make a huge difference, because i wouldn’t have deep relationships or a real understanding of what the community needs. i passed my 3 year mark at this church about 6 months ago, and it was like a lightbulb turned on and i finally felt effective. was it hard? abso-frickin-lutely. but i think if you follow your calling, choose carefully, and hang on–GREAT things come from that faithfulness.
it upsets me greatly, actually. i can somewhat understand it in terms of a young leader find their barrings in ministry. but what upsets me is when grown adults do it. especially when the ministry they start out in invests in them so greatly, and may even pay for seminary… and the moment “something better” comes along, they flee. i’ve seen this too many times in the ministry i am currently in and if someone reads this from there, i am sorry. it is just how i feel. absolutely, follow the Spirit’s leading… but from where i sit — i see leaders following their ego to the bank.
wow. can’t even begin to read all of the comments. amazing.
i am a change guy, not a a professional manager or stay the same kind of person. i am wired to come into a situation, assess and bring my previous experiences to bear, build teams and make the changes the ministry needs to move forward. still, my shortest tenure at a church position has been 4 years.
i’m actually at a church now that i pray that God will release me from, but i know i am called by Him to be here and do the work that needs to done in the ministry area i lead. i want to leave AND i want to be here until i retire….weird.
we run churches like businesses now instead of close families. It’s not a family, intimate thing for most people anymore so its treated like a biz.
My pastor won’t leave, this is his family. I’m not going anywhere either. Took me a long time to leave my old church. I was trying to build a family there but they didn’t want to. They fought tooth and nail. Those who wanted that, we all left. Some are still leaving. Just had friends leave a few weeks ago. It’s sad.
But then this church is the biggest most known church in our area… granted people come and go and nobody ever knows they were there…
I guess my heart is just broken for them right now. I’m so grateful I am where I am now.
It seems to me that churches with great systems in place tend to have less turnover. No stats on this just a generality.
Confident, secure, and healthy (emotionally) leadership that give others room to grow and lead also minimize people leaving. I believe most of us would do anything for those who believe in us and are committed to our overall health and development.
For what it’s worth …
Los.
Been at the same church for 15 years. Crazy. Who stays for 15 years…
Thankful
JHARP
jasonharper.cc
I personally have been at 4 church’s in 10 years. I am finally at a church where I can stay for a long time. In my experience I have learned that you have to hold hte same values that your Church and senior pastor’s hold. For me, I was stuck in a system of church’s that held very different values than I held. I grew up in that denomination and it was very painful to finally separate from it but it had to be done. I am now effectively ministering to people and growing spiritually in the saddle of full time ministry. I think if we look very closely we will see that there is a generation of young men and women who have completely different value systems than the leaders around them and perhaps have bigger visions for the community around them. Unfortunately we all know that young people in ministry very seldom get heard or have the chance to lead in vision development in their church’s. They are islands to themselves in youth ministry or what not. Hope this makes sense.
I want to comment to Zack bout half way up. If you have to as a staff member rely on your pastor/leader/whatever you call him, to feed you week in week out and make sure that you are growing both as a christian and leader, then you are in the wrong “business” my friend. Are pastors supposed to help push their staff? Sure. But if you are waiting for him to make you grow in those 2 areas you might want to look for different work. As an under shepherd, which you are, you are responsible for growing yourself.
Don’t get me wrong I have been in the same situation as you. Kinda felt like I was on an island or something. There are people out there and even around you who will be a mentor to you, to hold you accountable, to pray with you, cry with you, work with you, make you better. You just have to find them. They may not be your pastor though. I agree with you though, he could have done a better job, from what I have read of your story here. Ultimately we are all responsible for our own growth both personally and professionally.
just wanted to acknowledge gretchen’s wisdom up there… to not think so much about opportunities that come up but whatever God is speaking into our lives. our faith is in him, not our circumstances!