Before You Know It // It WIll Be Us
So I had a great conversation with my dad today.
He is 67.
He still preaches almost every Sunday.
He loves the Lord.
But in his latter years of life he wonders…
What about his generation?
Everything is all about reaching the next generation.
And his generation is expected to just go along with the changes that effect him and keep rather silent.
So they do.
Or they don’t.
If they do they smile in the back of the auditorium.
If they don’t they continue to press on in their older churches with less energy to reach their community.
When I hear my dad I hear 2 things…
1. Are there options for him to worship the way that he feels comfortable on a Sunday without being judged by the hipsters and actually being helped by the hipsters.
2. Is there room in our churches for effective strategies to reach the millions of senior citizens as well as the 28 year old male that we obviously program for?
What are you thoughts on the 65 year old generation?
Because before you know it…
It will be us.
Los
RAIN IT DOWN
I know that this generation is important and we need to really focus in on them, because eventually we are going to be the leaders of this world in the future, but we can't forget about the older generation. I think the older generation serves as a foundation for us, because without their wisdom and experiences, we cannot impact our generation today.
I really don't know what to do about how we worship and they worship, but I think what needs to be preached is the word, how our life is effected by it, and the experiences we have through the word. That's how we reach everyone, even those older than us.
My church has a 60+ ministry called Redeemers. It is thriving! Actually one of the strongest ministries in our church.
Fantastic question. My dad and I have had a similar conversation. He is also a pastor and is 56. To take it a step further from your conversation with your dad, he is concerned that 10 years from now (or maybe even 5 years) he won't be able to serve effectively in a church because of the technological, cultural, etc…. gap. This is definitely a real concern for the Church. As you know, guys his age have a wealth of talent, experience and wisdom that us 20-year olds (I'm being generous for your age) could learn from. It would be a shame if we lost their generation just because of “chronological snobbery” (in the words of C.S. Lewis).
I would like to hear your thoughts on the solution to this problem.
We like to jump on the fun topics while no one is doing anything with this one. I'm guilty; so I comment.
I see the most Spirit-filled churches reaching all generations–no matter the worship style.
With that said, I can't imagine being the one who everyone has forgotten. The one who everyone is waiting for them to die. The Gospel breaks down all barriers and allows all people to worship side by side. When we speak of this we think race. It goes to age demographic, socio-economic demographic, and any other demographic we can label people with.
We all might do well with figuring out how the Gospel can be preached to the senior citizen center.
What a great question . . . Having served in a church where the senior group was the largest group in the church, but this question was refused to be addressed. I think it is a worth question. How do we get our senior group to reach out to their peers and what is the environment that must be set or considered to make it welcoming to lost seniors. Is it possible to set an environment where a lost senior and a lost 28 year old both feel excited.
I think that fostering authentic community and pushing people to realize that music (even sunday morning services) is not the point (thought Important), but bringing the kingdom to earth is, and once the church(all ages) can get that, music styles, sermon styles and our personal comfort levels tend to go away so we can fully embrace change in all its forms.
This is a very important question though, Christ specifically called the church to care for the elderly and widowed, so in a certain sense it is a requirement, we just have to do it.
Wow, Carlos. When I read your blog today, I cried. It reminded me why I quit a comfortable job at a Christian ministry to pursue a degree that I can use to work with/minister to seniors. I'm still not sure of what exactly I want to do, but I know that God has wired me to reach the older generation. And I feel a little alone in that…thank you for thinking & writing about this. More of us need to think about & pray about how to reach our parents & grandparents. My grandmother passed away last year at the age of 85 & she accepted Christ only months before. It is never too late for someone to know God's love & mercy!
Our 8:45 service is aimed at the 65'ers in all sorts of ways. It's a much more traditional service, and the assumption is that everyone in there is right around that age group. Our 10:45 service is definitely aimed at the 20-30 crowd. Our leadership is a good mix of both of those demographics too. We have two execs that are in their early 30's, and our lead guy has been doing ministry since they were born.
There's the temptation to ditch the 8:45 service, put all your eggs in the 28-yr-old basket, and “move forward”. But I like what you're saying.
I like what Adrian as saying. For me personally I am faced with this same situation on a week to week basis. I lead worship on Friday's for our Raze youth ministry and as you know this generation is ver modern up beat, hip hop, raggae, contemporary, rock, you name it! Then I also lead a traditional service on Sunday. Now that service really caters to the older generation. Where I am getting to here is as far as worship, we worship leaders have to provide an atmosphere of worship for every person, no matter the age to dive into. We take the wisdom and foundation from the older folks and the older folks take the energy, excitement, and passion that us young folks bring. Great discussion let's keep it rollin!
Los
Great post. I appreciate the respect that you pay toward your father. At New Life we have felt some of the same tension. 80 year old church with a strong desire to continue being relevant to new believers, people far from God, as well as pillars of the church.
This led us to create a video venue during our 9AM service called Softer Sundays. We place high value on this service…top worship leaders…yet they do mid 80's worship music. It does draw an older crowd (like your dad) yet there are many younger people (30's & 40's) who enjoy it. The only difference is the worship style. Then the message is brought in live via video. Here's the thing….some might think we did this for the older people….they actually accepted it and moved that direction so we could do what we feel God calling us to do in our main service. They created empty seats during our optimal worship environment so we could reach more people.
Now, those seats are full again. If we ended softer Sunday's….we don't know what we'd do with all the people who moved over. it's a win/win. The people who attend SS are honored and we (church leaders) continue to do church how we feel God leading. God is great!
Lichty
In my limited experience it seems that what most seniors are looking for is the big R-E-S-P-E-C-T. They remember when they were the world-changers and they get that some things are going to move on without them.
What we can do is give them due honor. It's not like they stopped being relevant to us just because they aren't wrapped up in our culture.
I think we should approach it just like we do other cultural issues. We want to infuse the culture of the world around us and on some levels we can approach the age/culture-gap the same way.
In fact now that I think about it our obsession with being relevant to OUR culture without reaching out the older culture kind of makes up hypocrites.
Oops. *gulp*
I think there are two different questions here. One is how to help seniors (or other Christians) continue to be relevant inside the church. Carlos' dad and many others have many skills that are relevant. But personally I think their role as mentors is probably most important. They should be taking the forefront of reaching their own generation because that is what they know best.
The second question is what is to be done about non-Christian seniors. Because they won't be reaching by hip young worship. I think we as Christians really need to think about reaching non-Christians as if we are thinking about completely different cultures. I think that healthy churches often have many different generations, cultures, races, etc. But to assume that non-Christians will be reached by groups that are very different than them culturally is probably naive. The world of evangelism needs more people that are willing sacrifice leadership in order to help those that are closest do the evangelism. This is true about many different groups, including different age groups
I wonder… do you have opportunities for the two generations to come together and learn from and love one another? I'm just curious…
This is something I think about quiet often as the ones that I have known in the 'older generation' are becoming fewer and fewer. Yes they are very traditional and stubborn at times (okay most of the time). But within their minds and hearts is a wealth of wisdom and love. Each generation is afraid of “giving in” to each other for fear of loosing what is theirs.
My wife lost both of her grandparents this year. They were married for 62 years and pastors up until he was unable to do so. The stories I heard at their funerals really made me wish I could go back in time and learn from them. It has shifted how I view Ministry. Our generation screams we want relationships, but we are too connected to our internet, iphones, ipods, crackberrys, and blogs we are unable to connect with people face to face. That's where real relationship takes place. That's what they did in their generation.
This is something I've been thinking about a lot lately – while church shouldn't necessarily be tailored to make everyone feel warm and fuzzy, we should not forget the faithful.
We have a autonomous ministry for our seniors as well as plan production elements that they respond well too.
Together.
If we could somehow see life, ministry, and “church” …together, I think it would just be better.
Together.
been thinking about the same things lately, especially after watching the gen-we.org video and some others… this generation may be the biggest, but some day our generation, their generation will age and their ideals they hold today will be different.
I long to hear the voice of the older generation…their wisdom and faithfulness should be a mainstay for this generation of young parents, newer marriages, and those fresh in ministry. We need to know mistakes to avoid, and to be reminded of the timeless elements of faith that really matter. I think it's a little more than tailoring our religious experiences to their personal preferences. I think it's a matter of the older generation realizing we long to hear their voice in our lives, giving them confidence that they are still being used in God's plan to reach our communities, but perhaps in a different way than He's used them before. And I also think it involves our generation praying for and repenting to the older generation for lengthening the age gap with our lack of respect and arrogance…thinking we are good and can reach our world without the support of the faithful saints. Great discussion!
I think this is one of the HUGE problems with the idea that worship should be “relevant.” “Relevant” always ends up meaning being in tune with current popular culture. That's not what the church should be about. The church is community, and the community includes everyone, young and old, beautiful and ugly, cool and anything but.
My parents were completely alienated by the church to which they'd given 25 years of ministry when the pastors decided that there would be no service for senior adults and that the only worship available would feature a rock band. Contemporary music is not worshipful for my parents or for millions of other Christians, not to mention those who aren't believers – it's a distraction. And by ignoring the wisdom and experience of seniors (which is what we're doing if we tell them they're dinosaurs), the church makes a huge, huge error.
dude.
we recently has a conversation about this in staff.
we do everything to reach
kids.
students.
families
but what about 60+ crowd.
do we assume they have already made their decision on who they are going to live for.
Man, this couldn't be a better post. I just moved up to RTP (Durham, NC) to plant a church and had the same thought. There is an entire area just south of us that is filled with 55+ people who have moved into the area to retire. Most are from the north. Most are unchurched. Most wouldn't set foot in a southern “feeling” church or anything that resembles northpoint. However, I can almost guarantee you that a well done church plant that incorporated more liturgy and tradition minus the gospely music (no offense) would explode. There are no options down there. An orchestra, a seating arrangement they are comfortable with, larger words on a screen or maybe no screen. I don't know, but we should be thinking about planting in places like this too.
Exceptional, honest, mature, spiritually encouraging comments. I have the greatest respect for each of you and with you well in life and ministry.
Exceptional, honest, mature, spiritually encouraging comments. I have the greatest respect for each of you and wish you well in life and ministry.
I attended a church that was about reaching the children, yet they recognized that the older generation was being over looked so they started J.O.Y (Just Older Youth) it really revitalized and energized that group. I believe that it is really important to not forget the older generation as it is the older generation that we all should be turning to for guidance as it their generation that has the wisdom of years.
Great question. Funny that's the age my dad was when he got saved. There seems to be a huge turn towards church plants. These churches seem to target directly at the younger generation and there is nothing wrong with that but what about the older generation. I'm not sure if the answer is in a worship service and im not sure it's not. We just have to love on them however that may be. Also love on eachother ” they will know you are my disciples beacause of your love for one another” So what this all looks like i'm not sure but we need to get this figured out. I had a friend buried at age 55 last week and i can tell you today he is saying we were too late. If anyone is reaching this generation in amazing proportions please tell the world or there will be hell to pay for many.
This is a HUGE issue. Pretty soon it WILL be us. I am a 35 year old pastor. In 10 years I may not be comfortable with where current church culture (preaching, worship, service styles) is going. What will I do then? Hopefully, I will have fostered a culture of community and respect in our church that will allow us to reach and minister to everyone, not just a “target” age group (when did we ever become like TV networks anyway?).
i am 49 and i love the old school haha, Amazing Grace is my favorite. but there is so many others. can also enjoy and be moved in worship to young relevant, hip, cool, etc. music. i love reading others comments some very good points being made. thanks Mr. W
This is me all the way(the 20-something). I have a B.S. Audio Engineering and Recording Techniques, as well as a B.S. Acoustical Engineering. I've had the great privilege of serving on staff under 2 worship pastors who were 30 years my predecessor. They both told me that the greatest thing they did to help ensure that they are able to keep having great technical elements and doing them with excellence was bringing in someone who was up to date on those things.
But the thing they did to set us in the right mood was tell, right the very beginning, that I was there, not to promote my technological savvy, but support the vision of the church and the worship ministry that had been there LONG before I ever was. So I liked to joke that my job description was to make them look like they were the ones who were keeping up to date with all the new stuff. What really happened is they told me, and expected me to stay up to date with it all, and show them the things that could help take our technological arts to the next level. Like I said, I made them look good!
I don't know if your dad's church has the money that it would take to first, hire someone to do something like that, and to look into making those purchases, which we all know can get WAY out of control way too quickly. Something I would suggest is to maybe combine that role with another one. For instance, at one church that I served on staff at for a few years, I was that techy guy, but I was also the “Associate Worship Pastor” or at another church I was also the “Youth Worship Pastor”. So I was able to fill 2 needed roles as one person. So maybe if they are in the process of looking for an associate worship pastor or thinking about looking for one, they can hire someone with the tech know-how to help support the church in that way.
That was a lot, but like I said, I've been there before and was honestly the greatest experience I've had being on staff at a church. Plus they were awesome churches with other staff around me. Just a thought.
I mean they were awesome churches with other AWESOME staff there as well.
Wow. good word Carlos. Very insightful. We need to be able to walk the tightrope.
Our parents and those in their generation have a lot of wisdom to offer…if only we in our generation are humble enough to ask them.
I don't really think there's a lack of options for the older generation. Traditional churches are everywhere. Churches that are relevant to the current culture are the ones that are hard to find. Be yourself.
A passage from Phillipians 2 that relates to this area:
“Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.”
We are supposed to approach church life as servants of each other – submiting to each other – “considering others as better than ourselves”. As such, I should deal with specific areas (such as worship) the same way. Instead of asking what style of music best suits my tastes, my priority should be those around me, and their priority in turn should be me. Instead, we seem to deal with many of these issues backwards – fighting for our own desires.
Not an answer, I know, just some additional thought that rumbling around in my head.
We left our church recently (not because of the worship but because we just felt the direction of the church is going one way and God is telling us He wants us somewhere else to serve and worship right now. I will admit though, that we didn't like the worship at all the last few years, and although it's a very well known and popular church in So Cal (and an awesome teaching pastor), the worship really took a turn in recent years and not in a good way in my opinion. It has really focused on very contemporary music (contemporary music is great is great, but there was one theme every week it seemed), no praise music (everything very slow, contemplative and while those are good to have, it just got tiresome to have this every week, every song). and was not really “congregation friendly” in that the types of songs chosen were complicated musically (I used to sing in choirs and in worship bands) and geared for soloists. The worship leader stands on stage, and if you looked around no one in the congregation is singing. Solo songs are really fine, don't get me wrong, but this is what is brought for the congregational worship, so it would be expected (hoped) that the congregation would also participate And to us, that was our concern, because it wasn't about leading worship anymore it was about an individual's performance.
We've visited a few new churches and found one church's worship kind of refreshing. It's a smaller church, and only about max 20 people in the choir. The associate pastor is also the worship leader. Not the best musicians or singers, but the real difference is that it was so very clear that they were truly worshiping from the heart . And while there were only 2-3 people on a worship team while the choir wasn't singing, the ENTIRE congregation signs and the music and worship totally fill the place. They have music for all the generations– the incorporate hymms among contemporary selections (although they are often songs we may have heard a couple of years ago), upbeat praise music and quiet contemplative songs too. It's something for everyone, and everyone participates. Also, 15 minutes prior to service, everyone is invited to the sanctuary to sing the old hymns and I saw many seniors do this too.
I think it's good to be seeker senstive when planning the worship– think about the generations that the congregation is representing, think about people in various stations in life, think about a person of any age coming to church for the very first time. How do we want to prepare hearts for the message? For some, worship/music, etc. isn't all that important,they are just ready to dive into the Word, and that's awesome. For me, I have so much going on the entire week, a lot of stress and distractions,and for me worship really helps me to slow down, focus, and prepare my heart to hear the Word.
I actually have felt a little prejudice already as a 43 year old worship leader in a contemporary setting. I had a younger leader ask me while at a conference “Aren't you too old to be a worship leader?” and that floored me. I pastor my team and hope my experience and maturity in faith is a plus, not a minus. So I can get a glimpse of what your dad is alluding to. I wonder how much longer I will be able to lead worship. I'm already TOO OLD to be hired by most churches that are hiring, experience doesn't matter if you're looking for a 25 year old guy with a guitar. It is sobering.
Things change so quickly now, much more quickly than at any time in history. It can make you feel like there is nothing familiar and comfortable and simple and that your experience and pain and growth in life is not a pro, but a con.
I'd personally love to learn from your dad and others like him. I miss that in my setting.
I agree with the shared comments regarding senior adults in our churches. My postion as Minister of Membership Care puts me into contact with hundreds of seniors. Some have not been happy with our current direction and have gone elsewhere. Others have settled in and although they are not happy, this is their church and they are not leaving. Our traditional service allows them to join with 300-400 others weekly in worship, our senior level classes are still alive (they shepherd their members with great love), many seniors volunteer weekly in some fashion (our goal is for all of them to serve), trips and luncheons are held regularly (I'm still in youth ministry, but my kids are older), and our seniors are some of our most faithful with their stewardship. I love our senior members and can't believe that I'll be 60 next November.
This is a great question and our church is trying to figure out the solution too. We're at a crossroad right now b/c our church was founded by the older generation but we recognize the need to reach the “next gen.” Some of the older gen are on board, and some are not. especially when it comes to worship music style. We actually had a debate about the music volume & style on sundays which really upset people on both sides of the issue.
All that to say: I don't know what the solution is, but I recognize there is a problem.
I wonder about this as well. Statistically, more people turn 60 everyday than are born. What would it look like if we spent as much time, effort, and money reaching the boomers as we do on reaching the babies?
my inlaws live in aiken, sc (small town fo sho) and attend a non-denom church. they are retired, and live in a golf community with alot of other retired people. the crazy thing is that 2 years ago my faither in law was saved by Jesus and started telling all the other retired people about Jesus. Then he started inviting them all to church. 2 Christmases ago we had 2 rows full of 60+ in the front section of this cool nondenom rockin out to the Lord.
Sadly my father in law passed away(cancer) last year. But the 60+ crowd is still going to the hip nondenom church. Last time I was down there I was at a party where everyone there was 60+ except me and my husband and one of the hot topics of conversation was getting baptized. several of these were going to be baptized the next weekend and were talking about why they were doing it despite having been sprinkled before or baptized as a baby. it was really cool to watch God work in these conversations.
i dont know if this is relative, but in any event, i think its neat how the holy spirit is moving in a retirement community in a small town and they all go to a hip non-denom church!
food for thought!
Mark,
Thanks for the news about Redeemers. Can you share some of the things you are doing? Although I am not a pastor at the moment, yet I serve as the ExDir for California Southern Baptist Convention, 2400 churches preaching in 77 languages on Sunday. Many of our congregations are dealing with the issue of reaching senior adults, and it is not always about music or worship styles. God bless…ps…I am Carlos' dad…