You’re Growing? Well, She’s Dying.
This is taken from Skye Jethani’s “The Divine Commodity” which is required reading for any Ragamuffin.
“In 1990 approximately 20% the population (of America) attended church on any given weekend. By 2004 the figure had dropped to 17%. If the trend continues, by 2050 only 11% of Americans will attend church. Although megachurches have multiplied across the fruited plains, the numbers show that Christianity in America has been consolidating and not exploding”.
Now hear me.
I work for a “megachurch”.
I love my “megachurch”.
But in 2050, when I’m old and wrinkly, I want my grand kids to see the hope of glory and the beauty of His bride.
The Church.
Perry Noble said something at Unleash in reference to denominations shrinking. Something akin to if it were their money that was shrinking, there would be a strategy in place to fix it yesterday.
That is some truth spittin’ double slap right there.
So.
The “Church” is shrinking.
Some of our “churches” are not.
So instead of feeling comfortable about our local church growth, I think we need to step back and take a look from the roof of your local town hall.
Holy crap. The church in America is dying.
RAIN IT DOWN
I have been thinking about this a little bit lately with my transition from a small, dying church to a slowly (I mean sloooooowwwwllly) growing medium sized church.
I have a vested interested in seeing my "c"hurch grow. If it grows, hopefully, it means I as a staff member am doing a good job and helping it to grow. It means I may have some job security. It means I may actually get to get ahead financially instead of being so way, way behind. It means a lot of things to me personally, and to my family. My "c"hurch growing is great!
I wonder though where my church fits in the grand scheme of things. I love my church, but where does it fit in with the "C"hurch. Are we helping the "C"hurch to grow, or just our church. Helping the "C"hurch to grow means reaching lost people. Watching our church grow may just mean we are the flavor of the week. I wrestle with this. Why do I want to have the best youth ministry? For the church, or for the Church?
Does anyone know… when did the "C"hurch begin to die? How long after the NT did we stop gaining and start losing? Did it happen in our lifetimes, or has this been going on for decades? For hundreds of years? Is it just the church in America? How do we change that? Just copying what is going on in S. America, India or China won't do it. How do we turn the tide?
I have sometimes wondered if it would do more to shake things and grow things for the Kingdom if our "c"hurch were to shut its doors and say, "Go BE the church to the people you know instead of dragging them here and expecting US to do it."
I'm going to crunch and contend these numbers for a moment…
In 1990, the US population was around 248 million. 20% of that 248 million were attending church – about 49 million souls.
In 2004, the US population was just shy of 300 million. 17% of that 300 million were attending church – about 51 million souls, give or take – 2 million more people than in 1990.
So I contend the opposite – the Church is not dying, and the church is not dying. Both are growing. It's just…neither are growing fast enough, or put another way, we're not reaching the lost fast enough.
Just my $0.02 for the day.
Yes. Global Church death is the wrong word.
American would be better.
And to your point. Not reaching fast enough, to me, equals a slow death.
If the U.S. population grows by 50 million people, and U.S. church attendance only grows by 2 million, then there is a problem. Something about a 51:2 ratio doesn't sound to good to me.
Sacrifice starts with the person. So it would mean leadership letting go (of something that isn't theirs to begin with), sacrificing our ego, our position, our authority… the problem is if you don't sacrifice and the thing comes to an end, then you've sacrificed it all — unwillingly. Might as well set the ego aside and maybe sacrifice a few things — and let God do a course correction in your life and in his Church.
Good point
Is the book you referenced talking about the churches in America? I've heard that churches in many countries around the world are actually growing. I do agree that we must keep the larger perspective of the "C" Church, but I would encouraged that we develop our global perspective of the overall Church (around the world). I wonder what stats are for other nations.
Could the Church be growing globally while America experiences decline? Just thinking out loud.
Totally.
Sorry. America.
We need to take a long hard look at ourselves and why we dont really want to help those not in 'our church' and by that I mean other churches not just unbelievers. Show me a church that spends as much time building into the lives and ministries of the other churches in its area and I'll show you a community that is being transformed by the work of all the churches in its community. Can you show me an example?
Here in Australia the figures are even lower… in my State 5% of the population is in church on any given Sunday and I suspect that the % of authentic faith living Christians is less than that. I've been in ministry in my State for over 10 years and the level of churches working together has decreased in that time.
It's time to look at the big picture here… its about building GOD'S KINGDOM not our own churches. we must work togther to reach the lost, that's mission right?
Love it
There are far too many reasons why the broader church appears to be dying in the United States, not the least of which is that those outside the church don't see any tangible reason to enter it. That goes back, unfortunately, to how Christ's representatives live out their everyday lives.
There are a couple things we can do to stem the tide. First, move further in the direction of authenticity, first internally (being real with the Lord and each other), then externally. People smell fake a mile away.
Second, we should work in the broader church to reduce the barriers between us; not discarding essential viewpoints, but rather understanding that we can do more together than apart. This means, especially, ridding ourselves of the notion that the time when churches meet on Sunday is "the most segregated hour in America."
Welcome fixin2. Great stuff.
Thanks Art and los! This is AmandaSims' husband, Paul; the artist formerly known as towncrier86!
Good word dude! Be real. Be real with others.
I think this is right on. Regardless of who is growing or dying, at the end of the day the Church as a whole needs to both bring the lost in and keep the saved growing. Good post. Makes me check my (and my church's) motives.
Read a disturbing fact from R.C. Sproul from the book, Feed My Sheep: A Passionate Plea for Preaching. He writes (as I paraphrase):
A couple years ago at a Christian bookseller's conference, a survey was handed out to the several thousand in attendance to answer one simple question, "What is the gospel?". Out of several thousand, only a hundred responded. Out of those responses, only one person got the definition of the gospel of Jesus Christ correctly.
We fail to preach and teach the gospel of Jesus Christ.
We fail to preach from the Word of God.
We fail to teach that the Bible is not a practical roadmap to life applications but rather the Bible is completely about Jesus Christ and that all things point to him.
We fail to reach out to the city and our neighbors out of the love of Christ within our hearts and have instead fled to the suburbs away from unbelievers.
We are failing in raising up disciples of Christ.
Yet, we are surprised that 80% of churches in America are either plateauing or dying?
Let us not forget that Jesus Christ is the husband of His Bride and therefore, the head of His Church (Ephesians 4:15). In other words, Jesus Christ is the Head Senior Pastor of your church. If He doesn't figure into your organization chart, then Jesus Christ might elect to shut down your church.
Amen.
I hate that in more American churches than not on Sunday mornings (at least in my experience) pastors are sharing cute, funny anecdotes or life lessons instead of the gospel of Christ and the Word. We need to hear the gospel every single Sunday regardless of where we are in our walk with the Lord, and then we need to live it out every single day.
I think we also need to take the Great Commission seriously and be intentional about being in relationship with non-believers. If we're at church every other day, we're probably not encountering that many new potential members.
could be a good opportunity for the church to reinvent or perhaps return to something she once was. could it be that less going to church is not really a bad thing since we know that going to church really doesn't count for a whole lot these days? don't have the answer and not hating on churches i just know that church attendance is not necessarily a sign of spiritual health. that being said, i do know that when we have more in the seats more hear the name of Jesus and that alone is worth getting more people there. we gotta bring them Jesus in our churches or we are just wasting their time
It's interesting that you mention the whole going to church less thing. The church I've been engineering at for the past month recently decided to do away with all midweek stuff. The only regular time the church members will be together as a whole will be during Sunday services. Other than that they have small groups at people's houses once a week.
They're whole idea behind it is to stop giving the people so much information(Sunday morning, Sunday night, Sunday school, and Wednesday night services) and start giving them more opportunities to live it out.
I'm reading a VERY confronting book atm which looks at what God intended the Church to be/look like and what we as humans have made it into. I'm still deep into it, its confronting but stick with it, well worth the read.
Reimagining Church by Frank Viola
He has a few others which I intend to read as well… keep an open mind, let God speak to you through the book, dont put it down coz you get offended
I second the motion. I wasn't a huge fan of Pagan Christianity (great facts…just a bit unsure about the conclusions) but Reimagining Church seems really good so far.
Here's the link
http://www.reimaginingchurch.org/
I can only speak for my city of Watertown, NY (Jefferson County). Right now, we are in the fastest growing county in the state of New York. Our "c"hurch has been working extremely hard to network with other churches. We are meeting monthly with over 20 other area churches, meeting weekly with numerous pastors, and have even combined resources to create two church mergers already. Finances are also being allotted to help the Baptist church down the street get a new sound system, the Methodists pay for their secretary's first year of Payroll, and the local AG church get a new media computer. We are home to one of the largest youth ministries in the entire state, and just last week I met with 9 of our city's principals to discuss how the "C"hurch can serve them in doing more than just teaching our kids intellectually, but teaching them how to succeed in life. We are seeing a minimum of 5 families join the church a week (that's committed members), 65% of them unsaved. We had 12 high school seniors from one school give their lives to the Lord last week alone, including the Football Captain three weeks ago. We've been combing the globe, putting together an efficient discipleship program to handle all the new converts, with over 40 teens participating in the first "test run" before we promote it this fall. We just renovated a 30,000sq-ft movie theater, and already we're looking at two services. I'm busy starting a few restaurants to fund the Gospel, and we're connecting business people, politicians, and educators with culture-affecting positions within our city. Feels like a new kind of revival.
I can't speak for the rest of the church, but like James, my own study and world travels have shown me that the Church is growing. Open to correction here; perhaps it just the circles I travel in.
Either way, I'm celebrating everything I see the Holy Spirit doing! I boast in Him!
ch:
One other thought…
If a person is sick and you tell them "you're gonna die, " "you're gonna die, " "you're gonna die, " they may eventually believe you and die.
If we keep saying "the American church is dying," "the American church is dying," "the American church is dying," well, she may just do it.
Maybe we should applaud (rather than criticize) the "c"hurches that are Kingdom/Church minded and cheer them on to greater effect and influence with lost people, and just let the struggling/plateaued, inward focused churches die.
I don't think we should bury our heads in the sand, but an industry is growing up around the demise of the American church.
I tend to think her death is highly exaggerated.
sounds like los struck a nerve with you…the question is are we leading the "c" chruch, whatever that is…or are we looking to build God's church?
I think the news is not as bad as we think.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/november...
"However, Presser and Chaves determine that attendance has been stable (at about 25%) since the 1990s. That finding challenges the idea that our society is increasingly secular, or that the changes since the 1990s—technological improvements, the increase of scientific knowledge, and urbanization— have any impact on church attendance."
How about this. The NEW denominations are Perry Noble's "Unleashed" and "Catalyst" and other loose networks of church planting. Really, this is a lot like other times when God has been moving before in our US Church history. I see BRIGHT days ahead, even though the pain of seeing many things crumble exists.
Hello everybody,when i accepted the Lord as My Savior i asked just one question:" Now what?".
The Lord said Go and make disciples,the church needs to leave the building to make Church.
God bless.Giuseppe.Italy.
1. The Church will not die. I vaguely remember reading something about the Gates of Hell shall not prevail. And yes, WE MUST BELIEVE IT!!!
2. Just as important as it is for churches to be engaged in their community and reaching those who have yet to declare that Jesus is the Savior of their soul, we have to also train up those believers. To help them mature in faith. Perhaps this is an overlooked part of the equation.
3. HOW does the local church join together and advance the kingdom of God?
4. Was that THE ANNE JACKSON commenting at the top?
@kenyon, yes it's me
i am personally not blogging, but will occasionally leave a comment on another blog when necessary. 
I've pretty much come to the conclusion that the institutionalized American church is one of the greatest threats to the Church universal. It's too comfortable, too inward-focused, and too convinced of its own righteousness that we're blinded to the ways we've let individualism and corporate culture corrupt the Gospel. And, as Jethani points out, we've conflated the mission with the means, assuming that because the former is huge, the means should be the same, even though Jesus never really worked that way.
Just read and loved Jethani's book. Both because it helped put a lot of things I've been thinking for a long time into context, and because it's redemptive.
I love the redemptive nature of the book.
I think of the churches in Asia and Africa. They are flourishing. What are they doing that we aren't here in America? We take it for granted. It's not a treat, it's not a sacrifice. It's a habit. It's complacent. We don't know what it means to be persecuted to attend church. We search until we find the "perfect" church….which usually is the one that doesn't step on our toes or force us out of our comfort zone. When we choose to be challenged and forced to actually KNOW what we believe, the Church will flourish. Screw "hip" screw "relevant", I want Truth and challenge. That's love.
How about we stop looking at numbers, and start looking at levels of holiness in the church as a measuring stick as to the health of the "church"? The word says there will be a remnant… the word says that He is coming for a Holy and Spotless Bride… He tells us "be Holy as I am Holy"… all through the NT we are admonished to live HOLY lives and be set apart for Him, yet week after week I hear of "christians" who PAY to sit in a movie theater and be sworn at and see nudity, who watch television shows that portray lifestyles that are sinful, who perpetuate programs that keep people in their sinful lifestyles under the guise of "addiction" when it is SIN… I could go on and on and ON….
Los, I'm honestly GLAD the "church" as it is, is "dying"… why? So that He can raise up the TRUE church that is ready to BE the way He intended.
…there is a HUGE shaking taking place right now… down to the lowliest pew sitter, this church will be shaken… and those who are not TRULY rooted in CHRIST (and not "christiandom" and all it's trappings) will fall. Will be shaken OUT of the church… and THEN we will see what the Church is truly meant to be.
This has needed to happen for sooo long… what is the state of our church right now? Look around at all the different teachings, all the ear ticklers, and the false doctrines being perpetuated….
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. (2 Tim. 4:3-4)
It's here.
This is along the lines of what I was going to say too James. There is growth, it's just outpaced by growth of other faiths (including atheism, etc)
For instance, in Australia, church growth in 2007 was the strongest it's been for almost 20 years. However, it was outpaced by growth in Islam & Buddhism on a % basis.
In any case, it all points to the same thing – we're not being effective enough in Jesus' commission for our lives. If we all took that seriously, the world could be transformed quicker than we can conceive.
I think we should do anything short of sin to see the "C"hurch grow. I think the problem is that people, mainly pastors, are too threatened to step outside their own church to help their neighbor, or church down the road. Man…if the church could model this kind of sacrifice and selflessness to the world we probably couldn't keep people out!!!
I just got "The Divine Commodity" and can't wait to rip into it!
See, that's just stupid. "The problem is people… mainly pastors." Are you kidding me? The problem is the people, mainly adults over 40, in the pews who won't get off their lazy asses to do anything. I preached for two years that we had to reach outside of the church and reach the LOST so that the Church would grow. I tried to rally people to go and do that. You know what it got me? A nice fat pink slip.
That's why I'm going back into youth ministry. Before a person hits 28 or 30 you can actually lead them to change the world. Once they get married, have kids, start a career they are barely any good to the Kingdom and the Church anymore.
IMHO, everyone over 40 should be kicked out of church – they don't need it anymore, and they are good for just about nothing.
Means I've got 5 years to make a difference.
(Jake, I'm really not attacking you as a person – I don't know you – but I AM attacking this notion that the problem with the church in America is the pastors. You have no idea what you are talking about. Their are thousands of pastors working their butts off for barely a livable wage {most of the time working two jobs to make ends meet} who are trying to lead stubborn, stupid sheep to BIRTH MORE SHEEP! The problem is, the sheep keep blaming the shepherd (pastor) because their aren't enough sheep around to pay the bills and keep the choir full. Stupid sheep).
Hey bro…no offense but I am pastor and I have seen churches destroyed by self-focused pastors which breeds this into their church. Also I did say people not just pastors. So i understand where you are coming from and am sorry for the crap you went through at that church. From your response it sounds like it hurt you pretty bad. Sorry man.
wow…
LOL Art I feel your pain… it does seem that the 'over 40s' have this issue with what church is really about. In my expereince we battle the 'comfort zone christians' those who like to come to church coz its familiar and done just the way they like it. They dont want change or a challenge and if you bring it watch out! They have the 'power' in my church and unfortunately a Snr pastor that seems to agree… but that aside it does seem to be a trend in Australia with an over 40 age group.
My hope is that as the current 20+'s grow up we can help them to not follow the same trends and in the mean time I need to focus on what I can change and that is how I personally am going to make and be a difference for God wherever He puts me…
The problem is stem-to-stern as the vicious condescension ranges from pulpit to youth group to backroom. There are problems with pastors and there are pastors who work like ER surgeons. There are elders who sit on their asses and those who raise god-loving families and teach youth to grow. There are youth, young adults and so on who extend new boundaries and some who drive their peers out of the church.
Granted, I'm pretty much regarded as an "enemy" of The Church according to the loudest voices I hear shouting out there, but in sincerity – I guarantee no one will be won or returned to the fold with this approach.
Dude. I get your frustration. And pain. Trust me. Deep breath. Just show up. Do what God says. WE can never change the world. It is only the Living One in us who can. We are responsible for being and living transformed lives and setting that example.
I am NOT attacking you with this question. Merely asking something to honestly get your answer. Deal?
What if your "stupid sheep" read your comments on this post?
Again, I know you are frustrated, and venting…however, maybe that frustration you expressed on here is being discerned by the people you serve.
Completely humbly said.
Thanks for asking the question. They may have discerned my frustration, and maybe that is one of the reasons they asked me to leave. However, I don't believe that is the case. I could be wrong on that.
Using the term "stupid" was a mistake, but sometimes the actions of supposedly mature Christians who are more concerned with the style of music we sing or what Bible translation the pastor uses than about people who are lost… well, I can't think of another way to describe them. To me, they are why the church is dying.
Again, that is why I am going back into youth ministry. I can deal with people who you expect to be immature, but the ones who should know better… I have a hard time.
Thanks for calling me out on the "stupid sheep" line. I should know better.
Sometimes sheep are stupid. Sometimes we are so busy looking to save whom we think are lost and they are sitting in the pews. Sometimes people stop doing for the church because the church hurt them. They met the needs of others for so long and asked nothing in return and when life dealt them a heavy blow no one was there. No one. So just maybe some of the sheep are feeling dead inside and some of them are there…but still lost. Then again, some people are stupid and think they have put their time in when they were younger. That is also another attitude.
Consider the flock, the sheep. I know the language od Christian speak. I am also willing to do the work. Inside I am lost. Lost to the Church, not lost to the Lord. I have never said that before…
Art, as your brother in Christ, I need to say this to you: you need to get your heart right before you begin your next ministry or you are going to be at the same place you are now in a year or so. Take responsibility for your role in the situation you were in. Don't just blame the "stupid sheep." Allow God to bring about healing and restoration in your life. We are not responsible to bring about change in other people's lives – that is God's job. We are responsible to allow God to bring about His change in our lives.
The American church is not the global church…the global church is the global church.
I work in a growing "c"hurch that is reaching and impacting the community while partnering with other local churches to do the same. It's not easy, it ain't fun sometimes, and it makes people uncomfortable. But the problem with the "plateaued" church is just that, she wants to be comfortable.
Though I love the idea of big, filled to the brim, mega-churches, if they're "c"hurches filled with people sitting on their laurels (leadership included) then they're mega-fail-churches. Which in turn causes the global Church to suffer.
Big, small, and everything in between, the Church is people. When people grow the Church will grow. When people LIVE the Church will live.
every church i have encountered in the PNW is experiencing growth even the small ones. maybe we should step outside our megasites and keep planting. what are we doing help out the smaller ones? Co-op,resourcing,education, partnering…what is God leading you to do? Are we leading with our heads or our hearts? And do we let the head hold back the heart? My father-in-law challegened me on that last week, he felt i was holding back from what God would have me do…the next generation must be outside the boxes.
In the past 15 years I've watched at least 3 major churches in the urban Seattle area completely die… one historic building is now a Buddhist temple.
Unfortunately, what happens in the hood is still invisible to the greater PNW.
True…true…Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: IntenseDebate Notifications
Well, I hope they didn't have the same idea in Europe as described right above me. If they wanted to destroy the old church in order to build the "real" church, they have failed. 20 years ago 70% of Europeans went to church. Today, about 3%. These beautiful old churches are now museums or antique shops.
So, before we follow in Europe's footsteps, let's not give up on the local church or be glad it's dying. Let's fix it. Let's motivate some people to rip their large back sides from the pew and GET OUT and live the life of Christ. Your less-than-holy presence on Sunday morning isn't quite cutting it. If you're tired and bored with Him, stay home! We need people to be excited and excite others about His Word, not shout from the pew that OUR way is the RIGHT way.
Pastor, I don't care about buildings. Who cares about whether it's a pew or a bean bag chair. I care about souls.
Humans are not instigating this "dying"… His Spirit is. HE is causing it. It's Biblical, its coming, and there is nothing we can do, except get right with God, get on your face… Tell Him "we are wrong, you are right, purify us!" and Get out of the way and LET HIM.
All that matters anymore is JESUS. All the years of being culturally relevant won't matter when people deep within their souls cry out and need JESUS.
Wanna know something? I was a pharisee, for 23 YEARS. I was a pastor. I was leadership. I spent time reading demographics, trying to figure out how to bring people in…
… and just last week I encountered JESUS. No I mean really. The way He wanted. The way HE designed. It's messed me up so bad, and SO GOOD. He's shown me so much in the last week, that there are not human words to define it… but people are sick and tired of the shows the church puts on… there are people going to hell because we make Jesus look like a culturally relevant fool.
People want to see Truth. Love, peace, compassion, they want to see JESUS. He wasn't accepted in His time, why do we try so stinking hard to be accepted in ours?
So in case you missed that, after 23 years of perpetuating a "knowledged based" relationship with Jesus, on March 22nd, I finally got Saved. I thought I knew. I lead others. This is totally different and unlike anything I ever expected, and its EVERYTHING so much of the church is lacking! It makes my heart sob that soooo many others are missing this!!!!
Ronni, I love your love for Jesus, but I am saddened by what I read. So, I shouldn't worry about lost souls that reside in a pew every Sunday? I shouldn't concern myself with anyone? There's nothing I can do about it, so I should just make sure I am good with God? To Hell with everyone else? That's not in the least bit Biblical. I hear ya loud and clear that He's coming, but I don't know anymore than you do, when He's coming, so while I'm here I will sweat and bleed to get these people out of that building you don't care about and into the streets to make a difference….all in His Name.
I hold no building up and I couldn't care less what "people WANT to see". I spent 30 years of my life trying to be accepted and did so as a lying, cheating, drug-addicted thief, but by the Grace of God I am saved and today I do not give a rip who accepts me. I am accepted by Him and now that my eternity is sealed, I'm left to work on others. The fact that He's coming back is only a small part of Jesus. He never said to sit and rest on that fact and I won't start today.
Again, I appreciate your Love, but hope I have read this wrong or taken it out of context.
Pastor the thing is that when you make sure first and foremost that you are fully right with God… that is when people are compelled with a holy dissatisfaction that compels people to ask "what is different about you?"… I spent years and years in a church that was outward focused, and spent so much energy and time going… and doing… and going… and doing… and I know enough of them well enough that I know that they are where I was… and I pray that God truly has their souls… the going and doing and sending… is putting the cart before the horse if we haven't given Christ the reigns first…. I'm not saying He said sit and rest on that… I'm saying, we have as a church for so long focused so outwardly, and on numbers and demographics when the bride itself is pocked like a leper, with gaping sores the whole world sees and we are so outwardly focused and "getting it done" that we fail to see our own condition. I was one of them. Thing is, the world can see through that and I spent the last 23 years of my life making a FOOL out of JESUS.
I had to get ME right, and I can tell you only a week later that I've had people who have known me come to ME saying, "what the junk happened to you?"… and I shared JESUS with them… in HIS power because they saw HIM in me! Not because I was out sharing… and we spend so much time trying to equip people to DO… to go out… and inside they are gaping holes of need that arent' truly filled with Jesus…. it makes my heart ache… I was one of them!!! And it's exhausting… because we are trying to be the Holy Spirit to these people when we aren't even full of Him!
If the bride can truly truly truly get to know HIM… and dwell IN Him.. we won't have to try so hard… we will merely have to go and heck people will come to US!
Yes, we work for others, we are called to others… thing is we go looking for others so quickly… when God will honestly bring them to us, if we would only truly walk in His Spirit and pay attention!
I guess I'm worn of the methods, the 43 steps to a better whatever, the doctrines of man with no life and the methodologies that left a gaping hole in my Spirit that I cried out to be filled… and when I finally found TRUTH…. I found JESUS… I found EVERYTHING.
I just want that to be the cry of the Holy and spotless Bride He is coming for….
I can absolutely respect and admire getting ourselves right with God before working on others. Same goes for making sure others are before we send them out. I get your point and hope you do mine. I think we strive for the same goal.
That is the big question.
I think this would be the beginning.
agree. church attendance is an entry point but only an entry point, not the destination.
GReat stuff Russ.
I see your point to a degree.
But I also see a VERY unscientific study of friends around me who are leaving the church in mass Exodus.
What do they say? Are these Christian friends who are giving up on church for some reason, or unchurched friends who give it a try and don't care for it? Are these people who attend your church, or other churches around the area/state/country? I mean, if people are giving up on Buckhead/Northpoint… what hope do the rest of us have?
I'm really intrigued by this discussion because as a soon-to-be-again youth pastor, I know that kids are graduating high school and leaving the "C"hurch in droves. I want to help stop that. I want them to become fully functioning members of the body of Christ… but, how? That's the billion dollar question.
“if people are giving up on Buckhead/Northpoint… what hope do the rest of us have?”
More than you think bro.
More than you think.
Great questions.
1. We must do more than chant that mantra. I know that is not what you are doing. But it is what lot of people hang on to.
2. true
3. Stop treating it like a competition.
4. yup
Best comment of the day.
Well put
There are exceptions to almost every statement someone makes; with that in mind let me add my two cents worth. The church as we know it is dying, because it is based on man's traditions* and is not manifesting the nature and image of our King and his kingdom. Some churches are growing because they are able to cater to the "mall" mentality, offering programs that appeal to the selfish interests of the individuals.
Recent reports state that Christianity is no longer the "default" religion of the US. In my opinion, this has developed because the average church is no longer expressing the Kingdom in a relevant and engaging way to those that are under the age of 35.
When the church returns to it's purpose – all about revealing the nature and image of Jesus – that is when we will see a growth in the body of Christ. But it will not be like the old models.
*The original Greek for tradition means a handing over or selling out. Comes from a word that means to bring into captivity. So – tradition is a handing over of the commandments of God, resulting in the people being taken captive by man's doctrines. Expressing a weak and anemic church. For more on traditions you can go to http://tinyurl.com/9hygdx. Also read some of the posts after that.
http://www.martinschmaltz.com
A couple of days ago on my blog I reviewed a 2004 (out of print) book by Nick Page, The Church Invisible. It's a fictional piece, set in 2040 in England at a time when churches, as we know them have disappeared. On the blog, I included some quotations from the book — there were so many to choose from — given by Lydia, Nick's "tour guide" through the UK of three decades from now, as she tries to explain what happened. In short:
* We rejected the archaic, but failed to incorporate the richness and depth
* We assumed that those who teach have to be the ones to lead
* We wanted to talk rather than act; we stuffed people with doctrine not noticing their pain
* There was no variety in how church was done
* We kept antiquated images; we didn't search for new metaphors
* We thought of the Church as a warship, not as a fleet
The last point is telling; a character introduced in the final chapters adds, "We're not a navy, we're pirates."
The book ends in hope however, as the Church has moved away from buildings and programs into a more informal, cell-based, networked model. This book was published in the US and Canada by Zondervan and they should really bring it back into print, as it's more relevant in 2009 than it was in 2004.
The funny thing is, the whole fact that local churches are dying does not bother me. I think that the institution can do a lot of good. Like in my church, one thing that I really like is our support of the missionaries around the world. We give quite a bit from our budget each year to organizations and individuals that are making a difference around the world.
The thing that saddens me is, most people think thats all they need to do. They don't see the need right here among us. In my area, there are roughly 200 homeless children (in a small 200,000 who live in Charleston). And I am not about bringing them into the church institution. I believe it is about bringing them into our homes.
And that I what I wanted to mention. The Church around the world is growing, and we are slowly dying (that being the local church)… It is because of our denominations, our right-wing beliefs are being blown up, our lack of compassion for the neighbors around us, our hidden sin within our churches, etc… The reason we aren't seeing growth is because we aren't doing something outside of our local bodies! It is because we aren't being the Body of Christ in the world!
I belief by 2050, there will be no more "local church"… because the 11% won't be enough to keep most churches open as a result in a decline in tithing… I believe we are going to see a LARGE growth in home churches, and people realizing that the "church" has not been the Church, and it all has to change. There are still people in this nation who love the Lord, no doubt. Some of them are just not going to "church" anymore, they are BEING the Church (and you know, that is not true for some who have left the church)…
So what I am at is… we need to stop letting our building keep us down financially, and we need to stop letting our minds think we are doing all we need to do right inside the building. Because most of the need is outside our FLIPPING FOUR WALLS!
Alright, done.
Love the timing of the conversation. Just before the triumphal entry of the Jesus lamented over Jerusalem (Matthew 23:37-39). Lament for the church,. Contend for the heart of the church (not programs). Keep praying for her. Don't lob stones but pour out acts of love and compassion upon her, for she is the Bride of Christ. Lovingly, give your life for her, with no thought of return, except, "Well done good and faithful servant." Be willing to give up a little, (c) to gain a lot (C).
Barna speaks of this in his book Revolution. The people within a "church" building are shrinking and he says it is doing so because people are looking for authenticity (they are leaving to become more committed followers of Jesus).
It would seem that how we are doing church is causing people to leave. But if we are stepping away from an Acts 2 kind of church (teaching, fellowship, breaking of bread, prayer and sharing) then those "churches" probably would be better off closing.
I think the church building is shrinking but not the church, the ecclesia. People, I think, are attracted to those who are living authentically for Christ. If the church is shrinking it is because there are not enough of us living authentically.
If people are bored of Jesus then they must not really know Him.
I would certainly agree with that.
How does the advent of the internet church affected the attendance of local church. For surely the online/internet church like lifechurch.tv or even northpoint.tv? could create a generation of 'church goers' that do not attend a physical or local church.
Also the online church is part of the Global Church – maybe in an even more real way then the local church is because Online is Global so to speak.
So if behooves us to leverage the online access to the global community in order to reach to millions that spend their time there.
Wow. There is a lot going on in these comments. Not to be overly simplistic….but what we have found is that when we followed (and follow still) James 1:27 – orphans and widows the rest kind of just falls into place. We don't have all the answers and don't get me wrong, we certainly have hard days still (within the church)…but I don't think you can go wrong when you love people to the very best of your ability. When Christ did that the people came to him…he didn't have to go out looking. Same is true of us. They line up to receive the love. I can't help but get confused when I think of programs and bulletins. We have made it all so complicated when it really doesn't need to be. You don't have to move to Africa, Asia, Russia….all those people are waiting for you to love them. I don't think "they" need a 5 point sermon, they just need somebody to invite them into their lives for a real conversation about nothing and everything. Somebody to feed their kids, somebody to offer a real solution to their crisis, somebody to listen to their ideas on gay marriage and the newest coffee blend at Starbucks. But no. We are all in such a hurry. I am in a hurry, and always have to be reminded to LOVE. LOVE and then LOVE some more.
the problem with the church is me. i work at a mega-church. i seldom find time to reach outside of the church walls because i'm inside the church walls too much.
I've really enjoyed reading this post and comments. Let's keep searching for His revelation on how we can revive the Christian church in America. Let's start by living His way 7 days a week:).
You are right! We as pastors need to take responsibility for the Church as the Bride of Christ and need to see "the Body" coming together is just about the "our" church, it also applies to the Church as a whole. How has God uniquely gifted our church to help "the" Church (at it may be one across town we think we're in competition with–BTW we're not). How can we help another church, God's Church, this Easter? Maybe we give up our Easter Sunday service and go help another church. Wow, that would almost be "Christianly."
"So instead of feeling comfortable about our local church growth, I think we need to step back and take a look from the roof of your local town hall."
Another hit out of the park, Los. For me, this was needed. Thanks for reminding me that even though my church may be doing good growth wise, people are still lost and dying. We need to reach out to the people who are not yet in church.
This reminds me of something my pastor said recently and I had never heard it before and it struck a chord within me:
"We do church for people who aren't here yet."
I believe that churches need to truly stand up and fight for those who are lost. Fight for those in the town halls, the restaurants, and the cinemas. We need to not just put up bricks to keep certain people out. We need to make sure that we are trying to reach the whole world for God.
Honestly I am glad that some churches are dying. Some things need to fall to the ground before another seed can be planted. But my prayer is that men and women would rise up and fight with their lives to see God's glory shown to the nations. We need to help each other and point out where we are failing and take up our crosses and bear them until every last one of the people in our towns and cities are catching glimpses of the glory and forgiveness that comes with God.
Thanks, Los, for writing out of your heart. I believe that God is going to do something in you and through you and your blog. Thanks for taking the break that I believe is going to catapult this blog into a huge viral catalyst for the kingdom of God.
You asked: At what point does one sacrifice the success of one’s local church in order to spur the existence of His global Church?
A few quotes in response:
"Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall." (Luke 11:17"
"Is it not enough that all the world is against us, be we must also be against one another? O happy days of persecution, which drove us together in love, whom the sunshine of liberty and prosperity crumbles into dust by our contentions." Richard Baxter
"A kingdom minded ministry is one whose leaders care more about what God is doing everywhere than what God is doing in their own ministry. A kingdom-minded ministry is generous and eager to partner with others to get more done for the glory of God." Craig Groeschel in "It"
God, make us generous. Expand our hearts for others. Make us truly kingdom minded people!
Los,
Thanks for recommending my book and I’m glad you’ve enjoyed it. Unfortunately I really can’t take credit for the quote that got this whole conversation started. The stats were taken from an article in the June 2006 issue of Outreach Magazine.
I would like to address Perry Noble’s quote, however. I understand the point he’s trying to make, but in my engagement with church leaders all over the country I have met remarkably few who do not care deeply about Christ’s church and the mission of the gospel. I don’t think denominations are failing simply because church leaders are lazy, unmotivated, or failing to feel the weight of the crisis they’re facing. So, I don’t think it’s really fair to say that if they’re money was shrinking they’d have a plan- which implies some flaw of character.
But Perry’s response highlights a significant problem. Growing God’s kingdom and seeing souls regenerated, lives transformed, and people become “apprentices of Jesus” (as Dallas Willard likes to say) is a far more mysterious process than growing bank accounts or restoring profitability to a company. Making disciples isn’t the same as making widgets. If simply employing the right strategy and process is all it takes, then every church and every mission field would be expanding. But disciples are not widgets. Ministry is not mechanical. And God is not a vending machine. (As I discuss in chapter 5 of The Divine Commodity).
So maybe we should cut our brothers and sisters in struggling churches and denominations a little slack and give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they’re not lazy, unmotivated, and uncaring. And maybe those in growing churches aren’t experiencing larger crowds because they are all godly, passionate, and Spirit filled leaders. Maybe, just maybe, there’s a deeper mystery at work that should humble us all.
Blessings,
Skye Jethani
brilliant.
thanks for that input.
I wonder if the mystery will remain just that?
I almost hope it does because when we box God into a formula or church growth book then we have taken Him out of it.
I'm reading the book too, and loving it. I think there's something to be said for taking a group, or part of a healthy, large, church, and planting a new one, allowing new forms of ministry (and preferably newly relevant ones) to spring forth from that which was healthy in its own right. I think that causes cultural variation and relevance based off of a healthy root, and should foster Church brotherhood, instead of competition and division. That's what I'd like to do anyway
If I get a new church rocking, you should come visit and lead worship.
Would it be such a horrible thing if the church as we knew it died? I contend no. Sometimes, like with the current economic situation, you have to let go and build something new.
We, as the church and Church, have excluded and we have created communities that are isolated. When did we become so focused on our personal relationship with God. When did we make the focus on belief in strict dogma more important than offering grace. I believe that some churches get it, but many do not. I am certainly not perfect and live a good portion of my life trying to be comfortable.
I believe that we must go back to sitting with the tax collectors and the prostitutes. We must focus more on people’s basic needs. We must offer, without condition, God’s love. Otherwise, we will become the next Roman Empire.
I'm reading "Pagan Christianity" by Barna and Viola at the moment…if what they are saying is true…then I'd say it started back about 400AD
""IMHO, everyone over 40 should be kicked out of church – they don't need it anymore, and they are good for just about nothing.""
Maybe this is just me….
In my 20s I was job focused, in my 30s and 40s I was family focused.
Now I turned 50 this year and I am a prayer warrior. Can't get enough of the Word of God. I've got time for Him now. And I'm not arrogant enough to think I've got all the answers.
I won't let anyone kick me out of the church.
Yeah, it was an over generalization… you are obviously the exception to the rule (I mean that sincerely).
If you are, as you say, a "prayer warrior" then let me challenge you to pray, pray, pray for your pastor. Have his back on your knees. Talk to God about him, and never talk about him to anyone else. Pray that God's vision for the church is made clear to him, and that nothing stands in the way of it being carried out.
I agree – don't let anyone kick you out – just be sure to be a HELP and not a HINDRANCE. It's not about you.
The Divine Commodity points out the white elephant in the room. Every Christian should read it, then they should tell every other American Christian that they know to read it. Skye will help you see how American culture has sculpted your faith, and how the church is modeling consumerism above Christ.
I believe that in part it is a question of fruit. The church and the Church should be representative of the health and nature of its individual parts. If they are healthy and bearing fruit then the church will be healthy and bearing fruit. A healthy organism grows and reproduces. If a church is not seeing the fruit of the Gospel, redeemed souls, then I think it's time to do something different. We weren't placed here for the healthy, but for the sick. Who are we here for?
Are we cultivating an offensive on the gates of Hell under the power of Christ with a priesthood of believers that are going out into the world as ministers of the Gospel? Are people waiting on their church to do the job for them while they stay home? If the church is made up of mostly civilians when we're in a war, then something must change. I don't think the Church has any uninvolved.
One last question I've been challenged with recently: What is the Church? How does scripture define it? Not history, not tradition, not common sense or practice, but God.