Somethings Broken
There are lots of great people in the secular world who love Jesus but don’t go to church.
The church tries desperately to suck these great people out of their worldly communities and get them to go to church.
Which is good.
I think.
The church then tries desperately to convince these great people from the world who love Jesus that they should focus on getting into church community.
These great people in the secular world soon get wrapped up in church community and slowly fade out of secular world community.
The church then sends these great people to conferences on how to connect with the secular world community they used to belong to.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Somethings not right here.
Los
RAIN IT DOWN
story of my life.
Dude… I'm pretty sure you just opened up a black hole somewhere.
I totally get you though.
Ahahaha.
peace | dewde
This post reminds me of Rob Bell, Derek Webb, and Jesus.
Rob Bell calls it getting out of the shadow of your steeple.
Derek Webb Sings about it in "take to the world"
And Jesus talks about it in Acts 1:8
Funny to think that the doors of the church that we leave open for people to enter are often the ones the hold us in.
yup. sounds about right. or…wrong.
you nailed it!
Wow, that's spot on Los, great observation!
I want to know why Churches seem to think that in order for a person to serve God they need to be doing that from within the walls (read community) of the church! There are very few non-believers in that community, how does that help us to share the Gospel? And why do they look sideways at anyone who is doing great things for God in the secular world like they cant really be a Christian simply becasue they dont 'go to church'?
Salt and light IN the world not to ourselves… a light was made to shine in the darkness not shine with all the other lights all the time…
Oh so true.
I know a pastor dude that used to be involved in the church where we go, but now he holds his own services in a bar with fellow biker dudes and who knows who else… I think it's awesome!!
The best thing the church does is invite people to become a part of it.
The worst thing we do is invite people to be a part of it ALL THE TIME!
We have too many services. Too many bible studies. Too many small groups. Too many meetings. Too many Harvest Parties (please!). Too many…!!!
Here, here — cut the programs and allow people some time to put feet to their faith in the real world…
Carlos, you rock. I love you, man.
That’s one reason we struggle with the normal concepts of small groups. For instance we have men and women who play poker with those outside the church and they are influencing those toward Christ. To rearrange their schedule and go to a ’small group’ some influence would be lost. How do we properly balance that with Jesus command to make disciples from the disconnected as you go about your normal routines, such as poker or whatever. It seems to be more organic, connections happen naturally, and the church is less obligated to ‘make it happen and keep it going.’
Great topic. Thanks for your thoughts.
Great Friday morning thoughts!
Bingo. That's the irony of the church today. When you spell it out that way it kinda feels like the dog chasing it's tail huh?
I do believe in the church as God's chosen vehicle for redemption in this broken world. God has used it greatly to bring light into many dark places. But when we lose sight of our vision and try to mold people into "good, church-going Christians" instead of radical disciples of Christ…well, you get the scenario you described above.
I believe the church that God is raising up now won't be limited at all to weekend services or buildings but will carry the light of the gospel to places previous generations of "church-going Christians" have never been able to reach.
Good thing your church isn't going to be like that
.
peace | dewde
As a former worship leader and now everyday worshiper, I couldn’t agree more. We can’t change the world from inside the 4 walls!
Dude. Check out this thought.
::Dream this::
All the church staff in N. America either go part time or turn into a volunteer in ministry. Volunteers can work 2 nights a week. Part-Timers can work 4 days a week max.
We’ve just burst our holy huddle. The Church (notice the capital “C”) will have just sent out its most trained ministered into the world instead of withholding them from the world.
Just a dream. Maybe someday…..
Great point! GREAT POINT! How can we fix this? Interesting you say they don’t go to church. Do they need to? Is there a way for them to go to church and not get sucked out of their community? … lots of questions your post raises. LOVE IT!
What would you rather have happen – I would love a post that shares your view/suggestion/solution to this broken piece!
))
I think there is a fine line between reaching the world and being of the world. Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:13-16. Call us to be the salt and light. If we are too busy trying to blend into the world, they can not see His light. I am NOT saying we do not need to reach out of the church walls, we Do, we just need to be careful to do it in a way that would please Jesus!
Dang it Carlos, your suckin’ me in. The few times I have time to read your stuff I am challenged. and now I read more often than not. Thanks for your insight. Peggy
hmm, that IS interesting. never looked at it that deeply. being involved in church community is for personal growth and fellowship by growing with other fellow churchers. relating to secular folks is necessary to show that churchers are just alike (same problems, sins, etc.) just that we look to God for help and change. where does the circle start/end?
This is awesome! Except you forgot the part about how some of these great people who love Jesus have to end up going to counseling instead of conferences. How on earth do we fix this?
Definitely broken. Just had a similar conversation with a friend.
WOW! Great post man. Sums up what I have been thinking for a LONG time… it is broke, and we need to fix it!
I think it’s It’s because the “church” of the the Bible and the subculture of the American church are two dramatically different things. The truth is that when the genuine body of Christ is really experienced/understood, she can be quite attractive. But I think the subculture of Christianity is pretty unattractive. At least it is certainly is to me.
I think people can connect to the body of Christ and soon get assimilated into a culture that speaks a different language, has different value systems (some good/some bad) and expresses, though unintentionally, a disdain for people who don’t share this language and these values.
In my opinion, nothing is more attractive than the reality of Christ, and this reality only ceases to appear beautiful when it becomes distorted by inconsistencies in the message of our daily lives.
first time commenter…wow…convicting thought
Keep coming back. This guy is always thinking. Always challenging. Not always right. Always entertaining! God has great plans for Los! And I, at 52, am inspired by his passion! That Panamanian Passion! Like no other!
This is so me! I feel shunned to a great degree for not going to (C)hurch. Sometimes I just feel like can’t breathe when those doors close. I like the feeling of no structure. Notlack of structure, just not noticeable to me. I want freedom to worship with others who feel the same way. Whether are no side-looks from the “elders”. Hard to and that kind of freedom in a small community. Doesn’t stop me from looking OR worshipping. “when 2 or more gather…”
How does all this relate to Heb. 10:25 and other references to the meeting of believers?
Very timely post for me… I just saw U2 live last night for the first time, and honestly had one of the craziest worship experiences in the middle of a 62,000 people crowd. Because of their honesty, and authenticity (not to mention crazy talent), they’ve had the opportunity to force others into asking the hard questions… This probably doesn’t make much sense, 3 hours sleep + one hell of a concert high will do that to a person!
This may be hard to hear for a lot of people, BUT:
Relevancy has probably hurt the church more than it has helped the church.
We have focused our energies on trying to be just like the world (with our cool lighting, video, music that no one can tell is holy etc…) to get people to come into church, instead of offering them something different than the world. No, we’re not going to replace your rock concert experiences, but we have something that’s even more magical and transcendent: Jesus.
We tend to shy away from showing people the Holy Spirit through His gifts and pretend that only the freaking Christians do that stuff. And, honestly, that’s cowardly bullshit.
I’m sick of trying to be relevant to the lost people in my city. I want to show/act like/be Jesus to them. In a real way that’s not candycoated and apologized for.
Wow, I think i just realized the reason of my underlying discontentment with church (which is bad when you work for one). We get people to cut themselves off from “the world” to become “holy enough” to reach the world. Wouldn’t it be a huge testimony of God’s grace if “the world” saw our slow turn to Jesus and the change it has made?
I agree. There is a balance that needs to happen between having good church community and still having good secular community. Jesus did this well. Seems like He might be a pretty good model.
A book I’ve read reiterated a very important point we too often forget… nothing more than Jesus is needed to reach someone for Christ. No special training, no protection, not even a specific level of maturity… We try to protect and control new believers rather than unleashing them… the Gospel isn’t a defense, it’s an assault! And Father, Jesus, Spirit… they’re big enough…
i love this post.
i hate the way the church works like that.
seems so back-ass-wards to me…
good stuff Los-man. Good stuff…
Your description, while thought-provoking, doesn’t sound like my church at all. I NEED my church. I need the gospel preached clearly to me each week. I need my beloved church family to take care of me when I’m sick and love me through my sin. I need godly teaching from those who’ve gone before me. I take all my church gives me and share it throughout the week. Sometimes I share it with other churched folks, sometimes I share it with folks who don’t know Jesus.
Know what’s broken y’all? Us! That’s why I need Jesus. And that’s why I won’t stop going to church–and then back out again.
Tru Dat!
well said mr. muffin. well said.
There has to be a balance though. If you are not meeting regularly with other believers and growing in the word it’s so easy to get lost.
I think it’s interesting as I read the comments how many people took this as a thought that church itself is a bad idea or we don’t need it. Correct me if I’m wrong here, but I didn’t get that at all. The church community is important and needed. We just also have to assess regularly and try to do it the best we possibly can.
Also, this reminds me of the issue Erwin pointed out at CatWest Origins with how we do ministry as well. Kid goes to homeshool or private school their whole life, then we send em to a private Christian University, then they go to seminary to learn the Bible, and then we put them in the church and they’re supposed to teach people how to relate to culture with Jesus when they have never once been a part of that world themselves.
So well put…funny and pointed at the same time. May God continue to enlarge your voice!
In college I was challenged by the idea that we are all called to be light to the darkened world. And sitting in the BSU at UGA, all I could think was “YEAH”. So my next thought was, then why do all of you lights sit together in the same room so it can be well lit while there is darkness all around you. Putting one candle in a dark room sheds more light than adding one to a room where there is already light. I didn’t stop going to BSU, I just decided to give myself permission to be a light where there weren’t any.
I remember when my mom became a Christian a few years ago…we were at the table hanging out in our house in LA and my mom said that she had to change a bunch of stuff now that she was saved…my wife,Sharon responded “Mom,God loves you right now, regardless of all that stuff.” We’ve been careful to not treat her differently just because she is a believer now…no secret huddles and handshakes…just life on life. She still lives with my unbelieving,unchurched step-father, who is one of the coolest characters I’ve ever met. She knows how to live in the world. Why would anyone seek to pry them from it?
We want to bring people into the church and teach them all of our rules that are not scriptural…”Honey,here’s a list of all the stuff you can and cannot do” and then we just let them go to go police the world for Jesus? I know I sound like I’m on an extreme tangent here, but I’ve seen the ugliness that our churches have. My family has been through the crap of splits,etc. We are not church people anymore. We want to live for God in fellowship with other believers.
Just shared on Posterous. Thanks, Los.
So you look at the example of church as seen in the bible and it was a place where people could find encouragement, guidance, and common ground with other people and their struggles in being a disciple and disciple-er of Jesus. So ya, it is a bummer to see that some churches (not all of them, because there are a good some that are so right on) create their own world for believers to be consumed by when really our church is to simply be a resting ground for those who are already actively pursing people for Christ’s name sake whom God has already given them favor with amongst their own community. Taking a person out of that is stripping them of the place which God has given them for the purpose of making an impact (unless of course its a really toxic environment with harmful stuff going on, there is a point where separation is wise). From what I’ve read, the early church wasn’t a “bring them here so that we might save them within an hour of service”, it was “hey, as we’re all already out there trying to tell people about Jesus, lets be a family where we can all help, encourage, and bear one another’s burdens. Because its not easy. And I can’t do this alone.
I love Jesus just as much as I did when I was actively involved in church. However, now when I go to church, as soon as I get there, I want to run far, far away. Yet, when I don't go to church or meet actively with a body of believers, I don't think I'm growing in the way I should.
There sure are far more ways to do church than what we currently know… =)