Comments on: To Create Familiar Or Unfamiliar…That Is The Worship Service Question http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2009/09/to-create-familiar-or-unfamiliar-that-is-the-question/ Carlos Whittaker's Weblog Fri, 10 Feb 2012 08:05:38 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: Matt Bunk http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2009/09/to-create-familiar-or-unfamiliar-that-is-the-question/#comment-295619 Matt Bunk Fri, 11 Sep 2009 17:41:50 +0000 http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/?p=8511#comment-295619 Los, Even after reading "The Divine Commodity," you think both of those are OK? Do you think Paul would be writing a Corinth letter to one of those models right now? Not attacking it. Just asking. Los,
Even after reading "The Divine Commodity," you think both of those are OK? Do you think Paul would be writing a Corinth letter to one of those models right now? Not attacking it. Just asking.

]]> By: @JoJo_330 http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2009/09/to-create-familiar-or-unfamiliar-that-is-the-question/#comment-295600 @JoJo_330 Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:55:26 +0000 http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/?p=8511#comment-295600 I lead in church #2 and we are very evangelisticly focused. BUT we offer an opportunity for the "go after it crowd" at our Night's of Prayer and Worship. These nights are what fuel me to consistently be able to deliver the more "spectator friendly" service. Having said that, we are steadily making strides toward helping of very #2 oriented congregation to understand why we should all be hungry to get in there and go after the heart of God. We see movement in that direction. I also know that the programming choice can facilitate a very #1 experience in a very #2 church, so really being diligent to seek the heart and direction of the Lord in my programming choices makes a difference. I lead in church #2 and we are very evangelisticly focused. BUT we offer an opportunity for the "go after it crowd" at our Night's of Prayer and Worship. These nights are what fuel me to consistently be able to deliver the more "spectator friendly" service.

Having said that, we are steadily making strides toward helping of very #2 oriented congregation to understand why we should all be hungry to get in there and go after the heart of God. We see movement in that direction.

I also know that the programming choice can facilitate a very #1 experience in a very #2 church, so really being diligent to seek the heart and direction of the Lord in my programming choices makes a difference.

]]> By: Erica http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2009/09/to-create-familiar-or-unfamiliar-that-is-the-question/#comment-295596 Erica Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:36:56 +0000 http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/?p=8511#comment-295596 I used to attend the #1 church and now attend the #2 church. The #2 church is very clear in their mission to reach people who are unchurched. We're the BODY of Christ for a reason and will point to the scripture in 1 Corinthians 12:21 ...the eye cannot say to the hand "I don't need you!" Physiologically speaking, you will not find the same anatomical structures in the heart that are in the lungs. Both require different terminology yet they are both very much needed in the function and health of the over all body. As such, my church goes after the "un-churched" because they see the need to reach people and meet them where they are at, providing a place and creating an atmosphere that is not like what they expect from traditional church. Regardless of how unfamiliar they are with church, people will come in with a certain expectation. I think "dewde" is on to something about being made to feel comfortable during a worship service as an unbeliever--where's the relationship? Where are the people making "dewds" like him feel a part of what is happening corporately? I know I'm supposed to be one of them! And both familiarity and unfamiliarity should be bread. Familiarity through relationship should be first, it's ultimately what we are seeking with God but will be seen and experienced first through people. Then, the unfamiliarity, which to most that there is a loving Hero, who is not as ethereal as we think but who wants to actively engage in a personal r e l a t i o n s h i p with every single person he has made. I used to attend the #1 church and now attend the #2 church. The #2 church is very clear in their mission to reach people who are unchurched. We’re the BODY of Christ for a reason and will point to the scripture in 1 Corinthians 12:21 …the eye cannot say to the hand “I don’t need you!”

Physiologically speaking, you will not find the same anatomical structures in the heart that are in the lungs. Both require different terminology yet they are both very much needed in the function and health of the over all body.

As such, my church goes after the “un-churched” because they see the need to reach people and meet them where they are at, providing a place and creating an atmosphere that is not like what they expect from traditional church. Regardless of how unfamiliar they are with church, people will come in with a certain expectation. I think “dewde” is on to something about being made to feel comfortable during a worship service as an unbeliever–where’s the relationship? Where are the people making “dewds” like him feel a part of what is happening corporately? I know I’m supposed to be one of them! And both familiarity and unfamiliarity should be bread. Familiarity through relationship should be first, it’s ultimately what we are seeking with God but will be seen and experienced first through people. Then, the unfamiliarity, which to most that there is a loving Hero, who is not as ethereal as we think but who wants to actively engage in a personal r e l a t i o n s h i p with every single person he has made.

]]> By: CaroleTurner http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2009/09/to-create-familiar-or-unfamiliar-that-is-the-question/#comment-295595 CaroleTurner Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:34:16 +0000 http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/?p=8511#comment-295595 I totally get what you are saying! I would say I felt the same for MANY years even after becoming a Christian. Now as someone who stands on the stage, leading worship (im not the main singer, back up) I can see the faces of the completely board and freaked out in the crowd. I actually pray for them sometime while I am singing. And I also know that my heart, up there on that stage, has to be showing Jesus. Somehow, I have to reflect humility, worship, strength, be completely uninhibited in my praise to Him and not controlled by the fact that people are watching. I have to get lost in Him and pray hard that the lost open their hearts to His presence. I totally get what you are saying! I would say I felt the same for MANY years even after becoming a Christian.

Now as someone who stands on the stage, leading worship (im not the main singer, back up) I can see the faces of the completely board and freaked out in the crowd. I actually pray for them sometime while I am singing. And I also know that my heart, up there on that stage, has to be showing Jesus. Somehow, I have to reflect humility, worship, strength, be completely uninhibited in my praise to Him and not controlled by the fact that people are watching. I have to get lost in Him and pray hard that the lost open their hearts to His presence.

]]> By: CaroleTurner http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2009/09/to-create-familiar-or-unfamiliar-that-is-the-question/#comment-295591 CaroleTurner Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:21:10 +0000 http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/?p=8511#comment-295591 I help lead worship at Healing Place Church-Baton Rouge Dream Center Campus. It is located in the inner city, the zip code with the most murders, drug arrest and gang related violence. The campus was one year old in May. And this year, trying to figure out "how, who, why" for worship has been quite a journey. Our issue is, we all come from Healing Place, which does 90% Hillsong but we are attempting to lead a lot of people into worship that feel led more into worship with something like "Kirk Franklin" BUT we also have 30% of the congregation that are white or Hispanic. SO, finding the right mix, for all of them, got kinda crazy. We as a band had to agree to set aside what we liked or didn't like and start thinking about who we were trying to reach with the worship, God and man, lead the racially diverse crowd into worship and worship ourselves. BUT putting the congregations need above ours. NOW we do a mix of MANY different styles, some Israel, Jesus Culture, Franklin, Maneasy, Johnathan Stockstill, and we find that HE is there. We enter in and The congregation does. From the homesless guys, prostitutes, Kids from the Teen shelter, to the Real Estate agents and brokers. I love going to a church that looks and sounds like diversity. I love worshiping with ALL of these people. I help lead worship at Healing Place Church-Baton Rouge Dream Center Campus. It is located in the inner city, the zip code with the most murders, drug arrest and gang related violence. The campus was one year old in May. And this year, trying to figure out "how, who, why" for worship has been quite a journey. Our issue is, we all come from Healing Place, which does 90% Hillsong but we are attempting to lead a lot of people into worship that feel led more into worship with something like "Kirk Franklin" BUT we also have 30% of the congregation that are white or Hispanic. SO, finding the right mix, for all of them, got kinda crazy. We as a band had to agree to set aside what we liked or didn't like and start thinking about who we were trying to reach with the worship, God and man, lead the racially diverse crowd into worship and worship ourselves. BUT putting the congregations need above ours. NOW we do a mix of MANY different styles, some Israel, Jesus Culture, Franklin, Maneasy, Johnathan Stockstill, and we find that HE is there. We enter in and The congregation does. From the homesless guys, prostitutes, Kids from the Teen shelter, to the Real Estate agents and brokers.

I love going to a church that looks and sounds like diversity. I love worshiping with ALL of these people.

]]> By: tommybowman http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2009/09/to-create-familiar-or-unfamiliar-that-is-the-question/#comment-295573 tommybowman Fri, 11 Sep 2009 13:51:51 +0000 http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/?p=8511#comment-295573 In regards to the familiar question, plenty of familiar is key to the far from God, and I believe the unfamiliar is key to growing people into true worshippers of God. A worshipper walks into church ready to give their response to God regardless of the familiarity of the songs, leader, crowd, etc. and I think unfamiliarity helps build that heart in people. I'm doing the reproducing church thing where campuses get movin' before they get massive... so I'm wrestling with the same thing but only in the same services. Campuses have 2 services of a couple hundred people and every song, every prayer, every lyric, every word I say I'm having to craft carefully to draw in the far from God while leading a rich experience for the "closer" to God. It's tough... In regards to the familiar question, plenty of familiar is key to the far from God, and I believe the unfamiliar is key to growing people into true worshippers of God. A worshipper walks into church ready to give their response to God regardless of the familiarity of the songs, leader, crowd, etc. and I think unfamiliarity helps build that heart in people.

I'm doing the reproducing church thing where campuses get movin' before they get massive… so I'm wrestling with the same thing but only in the same services. Campuses have 2 services of a couple hundred people and every song, every prayer, every lyric, every word I say I'm having to craft carefully to draw in the far from God while leading a rich experience for the "closer" to God. It's tough…

]]> By: dewde http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2009/09/to-create-familiar-or-unfamiliar-that-is-the-question/#comment-295435 dewde Fri, 11 Sep 2009 12:03:28 +0000 http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/?p=8511#comment-295435 I often employ sarcasm in my comments, but I'm turning it off here. The following should be read literally. Standing through the songs, for the first few years that I attended North Point as a non-believer, was excruciating. Notice how I said that. "Standing through the songs". The term "worship services" is an obscure concept which is lost on someone that does not believe in God and was not raised around American Evangelical Christians. On days when they played 4 songs instead of 2 or 3... I was in a foul mood before Andy even took the stage. If you have a non-believer in the audience for the first, and possibly the last, time... then everything you do is either building a bridge or building a wall between that person and Christ. NOTHING is neutral for those 45 precious minutes. Go out of your way to make me feel comfortable as I stand there, stiff as a board with my hands in my pockets, awkwardly observing your peculiar and downright foreign rituals. peace | dewde I often employ sarcasm in my comments, but I'm turning it off here. The following should be read literally.

Standing through the songs, for the first few years that I attended North Point as a non-believer, was excruciating. Notice how I said that. "Standing through the songs". The term "worship services" is an obscure concept which is lost on someone that does not believe in God and was not raised around American Evangelical Christians.

On days when they played 4 songs instead of 2 or 3… I was in a foul mood before Andy even took the stage.

If you have a non-believer in the audience for the first, and possibly the last, time… then everything you do is either building a bridge or building a wall between that person and Christ. NOTHING is neutral for those 45 precious minutes. Go out of your way to make me feel comfortable as I stand there, stiff as a board with my hands in my pockets, awkwardly observing your peculiar and downright foreign rituals.

peace | dewde

]]> By: Dan Price http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2009/09/to-create-familiar-or-unfamiliar-that-is-the-question/#comment-295375 Dan Price Fri, 11 Sep 2009 01:05:31 +0000 http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/?p=8511#comment-295375 I'm the worship pastor of a church that is a #2 kind of church. Over 50% of our attenders are previously unchurched. We value art/creativity/theology, so we have artsy bands and most of our musicians didn't grow up in church, so honestly, as we are trying to teach people how to passionately respond to truth, sometimes that means, just literally opening their mouths and singing. We also have a bunch of people who were burned out on Christianity and are now coming back and so we really want to avoid manipulation, so we tend to not use as many verbal cues as other churches to get people to respond. So I guess you could say we are anti-pavlovian worship, if that makes sense. One of the other pastors saw this kid standing in the back row a couple of years ago, hands in pockets, just staring at the band and he asked "what are you thinking" he answered "I love worshiping God along with this band." Passionately holding his hands in his pockets. Trying to figure out now, how to teach people to respond a bit more because of who God is, it's an interesting line. I'm the worship pastor of a church that is a #2 kind of church. Over 50% of our attenders are previously unchurched. We value art/creativity/theology, so we have artsy bands and most of our musicians didn't grow up in church, so honestly, as we are trying to teach people how to passionately respond to truth, sometimes that means, just literally opening their mouths and singing. We also have a bunch of people who were burned out on Christianity and are now coming back and so we really want to avoid manipulation, so we tend to not use as many verbal cues as other churches to get people to respond. So I guess you could say we are anti-pavlovian worship, if that makes sense.

One of the other pastors saw this kid standing in the back row a couple of years ago, hands in pockets, just staring at the band and he asked "what are you thinking" he answered "I love worshiping God along with this band." Passionately holding his hands in his pockets. Trying to figure out now, how to teach people to respond a bit more because of who God is, it's an interesting line.

]]> By: Jody Earley http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2009/09/to-create-familiar-or-unfamiliar-that-is-the-question/#comment-295369 Jody Earley Fri, 11 Sep 2009 00:55:11 +0000 http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/?p=8511#comment-295369 Ahh. Makes sense. What if we simply prefaced a worship experience with an explanation of what is about to happen. "Over the next few minutes the band is going to sing some songs to our Creator expressing our love for him. Some of you may want to join in. Maybe lift your hands or clap or sing along. While others of you are still on the fence about this whole thing and just want to observe. That's okay." I truly think you can combine both: An environment were followers of Christ can openly worship God and outsiders can feel as if they belong before they believe. Not sure how to actually do it, but I believe it starts with a belief it can be done. I would love to hear your thoughts. Ahh. Makes sense. What if we simply prefaced a worship experience with an explanation of what is about to happen. "Over the next few minutes the band is going to sing some songs to our Creator expressing our love for him. Some of you may want to join in. Maybe lift your hands or clap or sing along. While others of you are still on the fence about this whole thing and just want to observe. That's okay." I truly think you can combine both: An environment were followers of Christ can openly worship God and outsiders can feel as if they belong before they believe. Not sure how to actually do it, but I believe it starts with a belief it can be done. I would love to hear your thoughts.

]]> By: loswhit http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2009/09/to-create-familiar-or-unfamiliar-that-is-the-question/#comment-295363 loswhit Fri, 11 Sep 2009 00:38:56 +0000 http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/?p=8511#comment-295363 Because I'm leading in church #2 of the above 2 examples. Because I'm leading in church #2 of the above 2 examples.

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