What do you think about church top 10 lists?
Rob Bell said something interesting today.
He was slamming on Christian “rank lists” that are out there.
He said he heard that there was this “Christian Organization” that was ranking “Christian local churches” from 1-50.
I am going to paraphrase, but I assure you this is almost verbatim…
“This organization that is ranking these churches needs to put down the crack pipe”
“If you are on this list your goal should not be to be on it, it should be to get off it.”
“Does the Bible not teach the churches followers that the last shall be first, and this is no exception.”
So, in the most civilized way possible…
Ragamuffins discuss…
What do you think about these sorts of lists?
Los
RAIN IT DOWN
Yeah I heard Francis Chan challenge a group of leaders either at Orange or DCLA about how we’re measuring “success”? If Jesus were here today and had his own church would your church be bigger than His? Chan was a bit fearful that we’ve sometimes fooled ourselves to be about the people pleasing business of “growing churches” than about the business of spreading Christ’s teachings.
After that I didn’t put much stock in Church Top 10 Lists any more…
Ever notice how much criticism and opposition Jesus faced in the Gospels? Even the crowds diminished after some of his teachings (which may have been Jesus’ intention – see Jn. 6). It would seem like you would have to minimize criticism and opposition to make these lists. But if you are not facing criticism and opposition, is it possible you aren’t preaching Jesus’ Gospel?
+1 to what Conner said. I think a lot of these lists out there try to rank churches based on worldly standards, (size, budget, etc.).
I guess it comes right down to two things. Success and motivation. Is success the number of people gathered in a building? Or the amount of people BEING THE CHURCH on a regular basis?
Speaking to motivation – I think the whole church industry is about big numbers and that becomes a motivation. The churches that get the air time are the ones doing the big things, having the big crowds. Frankly it is awesome!! Love NorthPoint, Hillsong, LifeChurch, etc we can learn from them all…
My question for others is this: Where are the successful, innovative little churches? Can we hear their voice, maybe see the top 100 little churches in the USA?
Frankly it’s all good. Good discussion!
I’m only 23 years old. But here is what I know. The church I am a part of is seeing large growth. Our church reaches people of every color, gender, economic status, religious upbringing, etc. We reach those people to tell them and show them about Jesus Christ and the death defeating power of His love. This large growth has allowed us to be able to send people to other parts of the world as well as our local community. Our goal was not to get on a list, nor was it to not get on a list. Our goal was and is to go into the world and make disciples… period. No lists.
i agree with rob bell. will we ever get out of the mindset of middle school? can we all (myself included!) quit trying to sit at the cool table in the cafeteria and instead focus on loving God and loving people? only by his grace.
I don’t put much stock in Ranking Lists. We have work to do that is too important to get sidetracked paying attention to lists. I think churches need to have evaluation tools to measure how effective their efforts are, but lists just invite comparisons and that’s very dangerous. Let’s stick to the Great Commandment and the Great Commission. If we follow God’s leading and do the work He gives us, that’s the only list I’m interested in.
I think the list he’s referring to is Outreach’s top growing churchers… man what I wouldn’t give for our church to be on that list… Not because we want on a list that’s published for all to see, but because they’re reporting salvations, baptisms, growth! Heck yeah, sign me up for that list. #1 on that list this year – New Life Church, Central Arkansas. That would be the place where my Dad, who’d quit going to church after being hurt by pastors, finally decided he could be loved again. Or some friends of our who were on the edge of divorce began to find they could be restored.
Scripture records the number of salvations, how much the church grew… Sounds like Rob Bell would have slammed the writers of Acts.
I think Outreach is trying to give us a list of places who are doing some things right so we can learn from them. Will some folks tout it as their value, maybe… But I doubt that’s how the ended up on the list in the first place.
If Seth Godin said something similar, like if he were on a list of Most Influential Communicators, you’d have to say that he was biting the hand that feeds him. It’s kind of a paradox. Can you use the stage awarded you by fame to reject fame?
I would agree with Rob if there was a list somewhere that ranked the way pastors coveted another pastor’s congregation or building or whatever. But just because a church has grown and an outside organization pointed out that they have grown does not mean there is anything wrong in the motivation of those church leaders. I believe Rob might have unwittingly done what a lot of us who speak do – said something without thinking through all that he was saying. I say we offer him some grace and not question his motivation for the statement. I also think we also shouldn’t just accept his accusation as true just because Rob Bell said it.
Rob pastors a mega-church. He needs to just shut up. When he goes to Fish Lake, Indiana and pastors a church with 40 people he can talk about getting off of lists.
But just because someone pastors a mega church doesnt make them bad. Jesus Preached to thousands and they kept coming back for one reason or another
Do you really think mega-churches start out as mega-churches? Why do people gotta hate on big churches? I do agree with Bell though, a verse Paul wrote in 1Cor 4 hit me in the face a couple of months ago where he tells us to think of ourselves as the scum of the earth, and also looking at the churches in Revelation tells me that we can’t rank churches because we have no idea the heart of these churches. That’s Jesus’ job, and ONLY Jesus’ job because he looks at the heart.
The fact that there are such lists suggests to me that Christianity has ceased to be an incarnational movement and has shifted to become an organizational industry.
I believe the point of Rob’s message was the 10th commandment about coveting. He used the list as an illustration?? I’ve been in ministry a while and pastors competing and comparing didn’t start with the list. It’s a heart issue. The list serves as a mirror to your heart. You can see it as a chance to rejoice at what God has done or you can be critical. Either way it is your heart speaking – not the makers of the list.
The truth is, all the information on these are voluntarily given. These churches WANT to be on these lists. They could easily say “No Thanks, we don’t want to participate in this”, but they really WANT to be on these list.
To me, they foster a worldly, un-biblical spirit about them and make it even harder for rockstar pastors to keep their hearts and heads out of the clouds.
Rob’s talk was the highlight for me yesterday. Basically my take away is:
Is bigger better? Is more actually more? Rob talked about the widow and her “small” offering and how Jesus said she gave the most. How is it possible that the one who gave the least gave the most? Isn’t it the ones who gave the most – gave the most? We live in a kingdom that is inverted. The last shall be first and the least the greatest. The goal should not be to be on a list, and if you are on the “list of the greatest” this or that – you may want to consider getting off that list.
Rob asked how does an outside organization look at a local pastor or group of believers and rate how they are fulfilling what God has called them to do in terms of comparison? How are we considered influential and important? When we walk in what God is given for us to do or when we get more? Many people say, “I’ve only got 300 people in my church, what I am doing is not significant like you Rob”
Something is wrong with that type of thinking.
I think it is just natural to rank stuff / compete. I think it is actually good for the church to be honest. Now making that your focus (being on the list) would be wrong. But then again so is self-righteous piety (saying you should get off that list).
In the end, inspiring churches/ministries to be the best they can be is a good thing. And highlighting how some of them are doing amazing stuff isn’t wrong in my book.
I like Rob Bell. I think his heart is in the right place and a lot of what he says is good stuff. He’s not immune to the fame factor, though, and I think this is just one more time that he’s a little high on “shock value.”
Said lists started to encourage the body of Christ, and I think most pastors have their heads on straight enough to keep them there. There are some, I’m sure, who are building their own kingdom, but I can’t believe it’s the majority.
And, honestly, if I’ve labored and prayed and labored and prayed for the congregation that the Lord has trusted me with, seen it blessed and grow by leaps and bounds, and I get a call asking me to submit some numbers – I’m absolutely going to do it. Not because I want to be on some list, but because I’m psyched for what God is doing in our midst.
Try to NOT be on the list? Ease up on outreach and preaching salvation so the numbers go down? Try to get less people in the pews, fewer baptized, etc? Not a chance, man; I don’t care how many books you’ve sold.
I have to wonder if all our cries of “Ego!” and “Pride!” aren’t a little self-reflecting sometimes. Jesus said that, “out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.”
I think its all on YOU. How YOU look at the list. I love the lists and use them as a valuable tool to know who I need to be watching, researching, listening to etc…If these are the churches growing and reaching people, what can I LEARN from them?
what is wrong with wanting to learn?
but its up to you to keep your reason for looking at the lists pure…they can easily become something that you beat yourself up over and play the comparison game with.
LOVE LOVE LOVE how LEX put it…
I agree with what some have said – if he’s referring to the Outreach top 100 largest and top 100 fastest growing lists, I don’t have a problem with those lists. I’m sure there are churches on the list with bad motives and practices, but I’m guessing for the most part they’re pastored by people who love God and want to see people meet Him.
Now if there was a top 50 List of churches that ranked them on how “they’re the best” then that would be a different story. But simply reporting what’s going on in churches is not a bad thing. Placing value on one church more than another would be the problem.
I am honestly wondering why Rob Bell was there in the first place. Not trying to start a fight. I just posted a couple questions that I’d love to know the answers to regarding Catalyst, one being Rob Bell related.
to me, it sounds like someone going for shock value.
i’ve never met a pastor once, who talked to me about how their church did or did not make any list of “top churches” despite being on staff at a few that have made such lists. I just don’t think any pastors really care whether their church is on such a list. Sure, it might be cool to be on one, but i think pastors spend a lot more nights up praying for people in their churches, going to hospitals to be with families, and praying for people to know Jesus, than they do wondering how they can make a “top churches” list.
i think list is good for reference. But instead of ranking them 1 through 50, just list them alphabetically or something. I think it is challenging for me to see what other churches are doing to save people and what kind of tools they use to do so. (media, design, sermon ideas.. stuff like that) Get inspired.. Dream more.. See how God uses every church differently..
I am with Rob Bell on this one.
For many years my wife and I attended a small church that would normally see anywhere from four to ten new members and similar number of baptisms in any given year. They would then publish these in the annual meeting in the form of a BAR GRAPH! What is about we human beings that we have to quantize everything? (Including blog stats!) Furthermore, who says that making a top 50 list is a sign of God’s blessing? Maybe it just means that ya got a big church. (By the way, my blog was #4 yesterday on one list…)
It’s an interesting discussion, since I am very involved in such a church. We were just named the 7th fastest growing church in the country. I have watched countless lives truly be saved by this church though. Not those gimmicky “Oh yeah, I’ll accept Christ” kind of things. I mean lives that are truly changing in awesome ways. So I don’t think being a huge church or anything is bad at all. I don’t see any point in ranking them either though. What does it accomplish? It’s not that we’re being crowd pleasers instead of truly preaching God’s word. I feel like it’s quite the opposite in fact. I’ve never been to a more “down to the Bible” church. No one there is afraid to say it like it is, no matter how harsh it is. We get criticism from other churches as well. So in a way, despite being huge, we could still be considered among the “last” though.
R. Bell is right. The same goes for pastors and musicians. Unhealthy!
three things…
what if the list was “churches that spent largest % of money on feeding the poor.” something tells me that rob wouldn’t have a problem with that list. just guessing of course. so it really comes down to the criteria, not the existence of some list.
secondly, since motives matter greatly, i’d have a problem with a church seeking or lobbying to be on these lists. but my guess is that most are just doing what God has called them to do and a third-party has noticed.
finally, i think the fastest growing list is one thing…it’s pretty cut and dry. the “most influential” list is kind of subjective.
I think most of these so called surveys are based on the numbers that these pastors or their churches send in, so I think it says a lot, or maybe a little for the character of the pastors, maybe have the wrong mentality of Growth, maybe the process is altogether bogus, maybe we should begin to grow to these churches and see if they are just growing, or if they are growing people through Jesus Christ, that’s what we should be about.
All the haters are seeming to hate on Rob because of the fastest growing list. To clarify, this is NOT what he said. He said that there was a list that ranked influencial pastors, not largest churches. He went on to give a brilliant talk about large or small, whatever God has given you to do is what you should be about. Finding contentment in Christ and what he has placed before you.
He mentioned that a pastor if a small church is by no means less influential than the pastor of the mega church. How about a little grace, or at least figure out the context of his comment, before you tell him to shut up. Really folks, when will we learn?
I agree, but don’t . This is a tough one. Does it matter? I dont know… this is just a tough one.
I think it’s that we live in Sodom and Gomorah, from huge megga churches to list that rank them, we are a consumeristic, fame and celebrity hungry society. The church and Christians living in America fall prey to it jsut as Lot thought giving his daughters to the evil men was better then the Angels, we are warped. BUT Grace covers that too. People like Rob Bell make us question things, think when we would rather be comfortable. I’m not sure how much I agree with him..but I do some, if that makes any sense. I fight the need for approval, blog stats, affirmation, every day. I think the minute we just accept the fame, celebrity hungry mentality, that is when we are in big trouble. Thanks to Chan, Bell and others challenging us to check our selves before we wreck ourselves.
We can’t rate someone’s humility or servant-heartedness. We can’t measure the fruit in human terms like God measures them in the light of eternity and infinity. I think we can compare notes, and hold one another accountable, and share/celebrate wonderful wins…. these are all crucial! But no, not rankings. They are deadly.
They teach us that we are to be in competition, when we should be seeking communion.
This is one of the many reasons I appreciate and respect Rob.
As much notoriety as he has received in the past years, this is still his heart.
lists suck…
i think many of us need to put down the crack pipe in an area or two!!
I don’t have a problem with church lists. I’m not entirely convinced that Rob Bell does either. I’d say that the problem with ‘church lists’ is really a problem about something else. It’s not a problem to rank statistical measurables, it’s a problem when we assess value to those measureables that does not belong.
But let me be perfectly clear. Numbers DO matter. Every number represents a person. People matter to God. They are of the utmost importance to God. Authentic life change matters. Numbers for the sake of numbers do not. Numbers as they represent authentic people experiencing authentic life change from interaction with Christian community and the Spirit of God matter. Big time.
I doubt that many churches on ‘the lists’ do what they do to get on ‘the list.’ They do what they do because people matter to them. Because God matters to them. Because they attempt to listen to God’s will for their individual circumstances and community. If their community is capable of growing the church to a size that it gets on a ‘list,’ that is not bad. Nor is it bad if their community does not grow that specific church to a large size.
The size is not the issue. This isn’t about church lists. It’s about coveting a position on a church list. Or doing ministry for wrong reasons. But even Paul said that he didn’t care if it was for false motives or for true, the important thing is that Jesus is preached.
lame. but then again we’re connosiuers of everything else. why not the gospel ?
I can’t believe I agree with Rob Bell but I most certainly do.
Biggest/fastest growth lists to show a good a church is or how well a church doing is the equivalent weak argument that because a certain album has sold more than another, it must be better than weaker selling album.
Insert headache man picture here.
I would like to see a list of churches that are actually fulfilling the Great Commission and actually raising disciples and not just converts and not just butts in seats. And if you can put a number on how many disciples you are raising, I will contend you are doing it wrong.
I do not think Rob was referring to outreach magazine or atleast i don’t think he was anyways. Outreach list the top 100 not the top 50. Thats just my opinion.If anyone wasn’t there this was one of the best catalyst talks EVER. Rob hit a grandslam here. Rob summed it up best when he said “when you obey God you won’t want anyone elses life.”He was basically telling people not to compare yourself to another church or leader,don’t be obsessed with growth but with who God called you to be. If you weren’t at catalyst do yourself a favor and hear his talk from this year. I have never agreed with everything Rob has said but on this night i did. Warning this is not a safe message.
I believe Rob Bell is on to something. Yeah I understand that he pastors a huge giga church but regardless of this he raises a good thought. Why Rank? Why? Can you give a good enough reason/cause why? To puff up yourself? The world does this, should we? What are our motives? I’ll be honest it would be real cool to see my name up there/my blog up there/anything I do up there. But that’s so selfish, ya know? Does Rob Bell want his name on the list? Not sure if he is looking for his name on the list. I’m sure other people have pointed it out to him but does he want his name on the list? I will choose to Believe the Best (Andy Stanley) and say that he doesn’t.
If your name is on the list, don’t fret, no reason to. All you have to do is stay who you are. And if you have to, humble yourself, that way you dont get BIG headed. That’s where the real problem lies.
What Rob Bell said. Couldn’t have articulated it much better. One salvation is as significant as a thousand.
But IS one salvation as significant as a thousand? We know – because scripture tells us – about the joy in heaven over just one sinner who comes to repentance, but a thousand sinners coming to repentance isn’t more significant?
One is one eternity, one soul, one person that Christ loves more than we know and died for. And if that one were the only soul on the line would He still have gone to the cross? Absolutely.
But a thousand is 999 more. One is good, but I don’t know if I agree that +999 isn’t better.
I like Rob Bell, but maybe before he judges the motives of others with a blanket statement he should check out this verse before throwing out WTF earlier in the message.Eph. 5:4 – nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
90% percent of the time, criticism is a bad thing. It involves telling others what they are doing wrong. Even if it is “Positive’ criticism. So this list is telling all these other churches “Hey! You’re doin it all wrong!” But if that “bad” church brings in a new believer, than that church has fulfilled it’s role.
On the flipside, this list may show the “lesser churches” what LARGER, not better, churches are doing that is drawing a larger crowd.
i am not sure what i think of these lists, mainly because i don’t understand the point of these lists. what are they truly trying to communicate about these churches? how is this benefiting me as a leader in a church? as a church-goer?
My church is on one of those lists, but the hearts of our church leaders are solely focused on reaching people for Christ. We have to measure attendance, number of people in groups, baptisms, etc., to see if our tactics are working. If not, then we change our tactics. But our goal–reaching people for Christ–will never change. It’s the foundation of our vision plan. Don’t judge the churches on the “lists” or assume their motives are not right. Being on the “list” is just one tactic to get people into the building so they can hear about Christ. And yes, we are out being “the church” in the community, too.
Hey Los, first of all, you along with Anne and Jon gave a great talk at Catalyst. Second, I thought that was one of the best things Rob said. What does it produce to rank ministries? Is that a spiritual gift or a job designated by Christ? It’s a waste of time and money. People in those churches know what they’re all about. People outside ought to hear their stories, but putting them into a ‘hot or not’ list is childish.