Is God In Control, Or Are We?
I was having a conversation with a friend last week and we started sitting on this topic.
Is God really in control of everything in this broken world?
I know He CAN be…
He CAN be whatever He wants. He is God.
But this scripture has been vibrating in my head for a week…
15 May you be blessed by the Lord,
the Maker of heaven and earth.
16 The highest heavens belong to the Lord,
but the earth he has given to man.
Psalms 115:15-16
When I look at all the depravity, sickness, and flat out horror in the world, and then I read scriptures like this, I begin to wrestle…
Has He given US the earth and He allows us control?
Look. I believe in God, Spirit, Son.
Don’t freak out on me.
But as I look around the world…then read scripture like this…
I wrestle…
And to wrestle…
Is human…
Thoughts?
Los
RAIN IT DOWN
It’s hard but it’s completely true. God is in control of everything in this broken world. It doesn’t mean he causes everything. He is, however, completely in control. If he’s not, then he’s not God.
A few examples from Proverbs: 16:1, 9, 33; 21:1
A few links for you to read and consider:
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/ConferenceMessages/ByDate/2005/227_Ten_Aspects_of_Gods_Sovereignty_Over_Suffering_and_Satans_Hand_in_It/
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/AskPastorJohn/ByTopic/43/3415_How_can_evil_have_a_good_purpose/
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/AskPastorJohn/ByTopic/43/2859_Is_Gods_sovereignty_limited/
Wrestle on brother. Let me know what you think.
What I am about to share is something that gets shut down a lot of times but if you would just hear me out.
Jesus was the clearer of the confusion because he was God manifested in man. He mentions several times in the book of John (Particularly Chapter 5) that he can only do what he sees the Father do. Jesus never killed, stole, or destroyed anything> He also healed, delivered, and made whole everyone who came to him and asked for it.
The book of 1 Corinthians says that Death is an enemy of enemy of God (15:26). Therefore, death is obviously not a part of God. Jesus said that he came to not only give life but give life more abundantly. He also cleared up another truth when he said that it was the enemy who comes to steal, kill, and destroy.
The next part I am going to mention is where I usually get bashed so please stick with me. In Genesis Chapter 1 if you will look then you will see several times where God (Elohim) was creating things. After every day that he created something there was evening then morning until the 7th day. On the 7th day it said that God rested from all His work which He created and made. You will also notice there that there was not evening and morning on the 7th day.
As soon as God rested you will notice the next verse in Chapter 2 of Genesis that there are two more words added in front of God (Elohim). These words are “the LORD.” If you have access to a Strong’s concordance check out the meanings and root words to the word LORD. I also think it is awesome how the translators of the bible decided to make this word all caps. It’s like they really wanted us to pay attention to this word. You will also notice in your studies that the word LORD and Lord have two separate meanings.
I would be more than willing to give you more revelation on this, but I do not want to throw out all the Pearls that the Holy Spirit has shown me so that just anybody can come by and snatch them.
One more thing that is just a little interesting is Exodus Chapter 6:3. Read that in either a KJV,NKJV, or ESV just so that a little more curiosity can be stirred up.
Just for the record: I believe that God has spoken things into existence, set man in dominion, and now things happen as a result of the actions of man. Thanks and Be Blessed to everyone who read this.
You make a point! As you have seen much there is must still unsaid. All they answer do not lay in one place. Even if you throw your pearl out, not maybe will be able to see what you have thrown. The one who can will see them shine for the are more the what is in front of them.
For real. I’m wrestling with this same idea. For the longest time I’ve been under the impression that God created us to not be robots, that we had ultimately a choice in doing things like what you are talking about, and what that scripture says. It’s scriptures like that one and 1st Peter 1:1-2 that cause me to conflict. But maybe it’s a Rob Bell thing, and it’s like “Yep.”
I don’t think it’s a Rob Bell thing. It is something worth wrestling through. The biblical truth that God is COMPLETELY Sovereign is precious and I hope God opens your eyes to its truth.
We are not robots. BUT at the same time he in control of all that happens. Roots have no emotion. We, because of God’s work in our lives, desire to love and serve him. This only happens when he open the eyes of my heart and we see him as beautiful.
Thoughts?
Amen Nick.
Nick, I absolutely agree. God’s sovereignty is a difficult concept to grasp, yet it is absolute.
I think of it in terms of having limited free will. We walk through doors through our own decisions, but once we get there, we look back seeing “I’ve planned this for you since the foundations of time.” God knows, God is in control, and all is according to his purpose. He orchestrates events in our lives so that we feel as though we’re making our own choices.
In this world, evil is a subjective idea. For God, all is good. He is good, and nothing of Him can be evil. God has created the demons and the “evils” in this world for the purpose of glorifying him. Once we understand the doctrine of God (God exists perfectly for His glory), we can understand why things we perceive as bad and evil are allowed to happen.
I apologize is this is a little all over the place. God bless.
Love it
If God is in complete control of everything, what’s the reward in obedience?
I’m a fellow problem wrestler with this Los, and i heard this quote the other day…
I kinda like the idea of it being a “yep” thing…yeah, we’re in charge, but yeah, God’s in charge.
yep
Habakkuk too, wrestled, with God when violence and devestation was breaking out…God said, “Hab…if I TOLD YOU what I was DOING (amongst all the devestation) you wouldn’t even believe it…” God is working. His silence doesn’t mean his absence. But we still can’t fathom how the all loving God can allow such things.
I don’t have the answers, but the Almighty God does.
In Genesis, we see that man was given dominion over the earth. (Gen 1:26-31). Then we read in Gen 3 that Satan ripped off Eve, this is the point sin entered the world. (Heb 5:12) But then we read in I John 5:19 that SATAN has dominion over this world: “…the whole world lies in power of the evil one.” He is the “prince of this world.” Wow. It’s not something I fully understand, but God will one day restore the earth back to Jesus…it’s a beautiful picture in Revelaton 5.
This is why we, like Habakkuk, in the face of destruction, famine, and death can say:
“Yet, I will exult in the Lord, I will rejoice in the God of my salvation. The Lord God is my strength, And he has made my feet like hinds’ feet, and he makes we walk in high places.”
We know there’s a battle. It’s a battle of souls. But one day, that battle will be won.
That is a great word
Well thought out and well said. Why does God “being in control” automatically have to mean “things can not go wrong?” When my car spun out of control, by the grace of God, I remained in control. In the midst of chaos, pain, and evil, God remains in control!
Going back to Creation, God gave man the earth. In Genesis 1:28 we read “God blessed them (Adam & Eve) and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”"
God is ultimately in control but He gave man a choice and as a result, sin entered the world. The brokeness we see now goes back to the Garden of Eden when man’s relationship with God was broken because of sin. While God has offered us redemption through Christ, our world is still under the curse of sin and will remain that way until Satan is ultimately bound and a new earth is created as described in Revelation 21.
I think “control” is the confusing word here. God “allows” sin to remain in the world and sin is the reason for all of this depravity, sickness, etc. 2 Peter 1:3-4 states:
“His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.”
Evil desires (sin) = corruption in the world
And unfortunatley its going to stay that way until Jesus comes to restore the earth to His glory.
We have a whole lot more sway that most people think. I agree that God is all of the OMNI’s, but um… we’re responsible for all sorts of things. Misallocation of resources, murder, abuse… Free will was a ballsy move.
Very ballsy
wow you are talking about God and Jesus, I thought you never did that…kidding and laughing with all the haters out there.
A huge topic that seems to really have no answer mainly because no of us are God (though we try to be, myself included). I have been wrestling with this idea of how God works in the world and our life. Is it the Donald Miller thought that the story is there and God is saying take a hold of it and do it. Or is it the idea that God will move and we just need to wait and He will reveal our direction.
I think that question fits into your question. It all comes back to the guidance of Gods people I think. Look at the Israelites, they had God’s direction, but went against that and wanted to be like the surrounding nations and wanted a King. That verse is very interesting though…really don’t have any answers, just confused thoughts.
I think you just wrote what I am thinking.
Do I have to pay you for that?
always…or you could pay me in advertisement space
I have to say I wrestle with some of these same thoughts. I always have a hard time when people say that God ‘has a plan’ when someone is going through a horrible experience. As if God caused it so that they could learn something. I don’t buy that. I think God can use something bad in my live, something caused because I or others make bad choices…but that he caused it or controlled it? I can’t go there.
Just look to the story of Job- God allowed Satan to tempt him and as result, all kinds of horrible things happened. Job lost his family and all of his possessions. God didn’t cause it but He allowed it to happen and because Job continued to trust in God in spite of the cirucumstances, God blessed Him in the end.
God granted Satan permission to test Job, showing God is ultimately in control. He doesn’t cause the bad things but we know that “in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose” (Romans 8:28)
God doesn’t cause bad things to happen. Bad things happen because we live in a sinful and fallen world. We have the will to accept God or reject him.. We have the will to follow his path for us, or our own. Jessica has it… even in calamity – in stories like Job, even Satan has to ask God permission to touch us.
Always take scripture in it’s full context. One verse does not a rule make — scripture consistantly refers to the soverienty of God. And scripture also consistantly states that Christ is untimately the ruler of this earth and our lives.
Great thoughts Carlos – worth wrestling over.
I agree. My husband and I lost a baby. There is NO WAY you can tell me that God caused that, or that He “took” our baby. God would not hurt one of His children (me) like that. But I think that God used that situation to draw me closer to Him because I CHOSE to cling to Him as my Abba Father. My husband has terminal cancer. Same thing- God didn’t give him cancer. But through it, my husband gave his heart to God, and because of that we are seeing a miraculous healing in his body. The cancer isn’t gone, but it’s dying. We live in a fallen world- that’s the only explanation I’ve been able to come up with. Just because we are Christians doesn’t mean that we are exempt from the ramifications of sin.
We wake up everyday with the ability to choose. God has told and shown us what to do. It is on us to decide if we will listen or not. It goes all the way back to the garden of Eden, God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit but yet they chose to. It still continues to this day. Yes, God is in control of everything and He can intervene when He chooses but He gave us dominion over the earth. I heard this recently ” God gave us authority on earth, man gave it to satan in the fall, Jesus came; died on the cross and took it back then Jesus gave it back to us. Is God in control or are we? The answer is “YEP”
This is a topic that is always bouncing around in my head but a recent sermon at my church brought it forward again. I don’t think it is a question we can answer until we can stand in front of the big man and have him explain it to us [mainly bc i don't think our brains can process the real answer until then]. But i do like to gather scripture for both sides so if some one [or many ones] would like to share what scriptures they feel speak to this, i would love to have them in my back pocket for rainy day discussions.
I am not so keen on the “we have control” part but the “we have responsibility” part. “Yep” HE does control all things but we have a responsibility to spread the Gospel, be kind to our neighbor, clean our room and “maybe” even recycle to “save the planet”. I have heard preachers say why should we recycle…”God will take care of the earth.” When I believe that God has given us a gift of life and the gift to live on such an abundant and beautiful place. It would be irresponsible to “trash” or throw away anything God has given us.
(I used a lot of ” ” in this comment.
DJ ACRIS IJosh Wyatt)
I think at times God takes control, but for most part he has given this world over to us. We are supposed to care for each other. Instead we look out for ourselves. That selfishness leads to disaster.
“I think at times God takes control,” Im not sure what to think of this statement but it’s not biblical in any way. Sometimes God takes control? Proverbs 16:33 states that even when a dice is thrown its controlled by God and you say he sometimes takes control? Dude, your God is a scary, not-too-sure-of-himself God.
So Nick … help me understand, you’re saying everything that happens is because God wanted it to happen? Like the picture loswhit uses at the top of this post – Jewish people during the Holocaust – God wanted 6 million people to die horrific deaths? Now that’s a scary God …
Nothing in the world can happen outside of God’s control. We all admit that. But think about what that really means for a second. If ANYTHING in this world happened outside of Gods control then he wouldn’t be sovereign. So with that in mind we have to say that yes the Holocaust happened w/in god’s control. We cannot see his plan so maybe that is scary, but if you ask me its much more scary to think that God is leaving the world up to us, we are sinful human beings who hate everything to do with God, until he gracefully reveals himself to us.
What’s your definition of sovereign?
Could God be sovereign, but not controlling?
I see it as the world/earth was perfect and we f’ed it up. Since that moment, we each sin has changed the original plan and made the world a mess.
Technically, our sin has control of the world…right??
God has control of the world. Hell is where sin has control.
Along the same lines…1) If part of God’s purpose in sending Jesus was to establishing His Kindgom on earth, and 2) the Kingdom = Christ’s reign, and 3) the process of establishing His reign in all the earth is not yet complete, then doesn’t that imply that in those areas in our World where His Kingdom has not yet been established, His power/authority is in some sense limited? Maybe it would be better to say the EXRESSION of his power/authority is limited??
not sure…
If we look around at all the junk in the world, the evidence would suggest it was all us. But, sovereignty comes in the discussion as well. This leaves me, like most people, very confused.
But, I am sure that scriptures say that he is redeeming all things. I rest in that truth, right there…
Good questions. I think it’s both. God has given us choice, therefore we do “control” our lives and others lives in some way (our sin effects ourselves and others). But God, in His sovereignty redeemed our souls. And He did that through His Son Jesus. As follower of Christ, our souls have been redeemed but the earth as a whole hasn’t yet (it’s still full of sin, etc.). I think God is ultimately in control (even when I don’t see it). I hold on to Romans 8:28. That God takes ALL things (the horrible, the ugly, the good) and works it all together for our good. How? Not always sure. But that’s part of the beautiful mystery of God.
Is God ultimately in control? Yes. Does He allow us to make decisions? Yes. Is this a contradiction? It appears so, at least to the human mind, however God’s ways are higher than our ways. This is a concept I struggle with daily but I have to trust that God is sovereign and in control no matter how out of control this world is.
Maybe the question is, how can we be a part of changing things and still trust in a God whose heart breaks every time one of his children goes with out food, or is abused, mistreated, or even killed?
What about Jesus saying “The rain falls on the just and the unjust”?
Wasn’t rain both a judgement “The Flood” and a Blessing – Elijah filling the wells that were dug in faith.
Could it be “chance and circumstance happening to all”.
Job had a trial, NO ONE but God and Job saw it as such. All his friends called it punishment for sin, but God was testing his faithfulness.
I think each persons circumstance is subject to the intent of the Maker. We do live in a fallen world, but we deal with a savior who deals on an individual basis and is attempting to draw all men unto Himself.
So, I love this sort of conversation. I could think about these things all day! (Of course, I don’t know if I would get any further in understanding, but pondering the great deeds of God produces praise!)
Long story short, I believe that God is in control of all things. I believe non-Christians have no free will (slaves to sin), and I believe that Christians are set free to obey God, and that God causes Christians to obey Him. That’s the short story… explanation to follow.
amen brother
I wonder the same thing, every day…
I feel like I see things in the world that are obviously driven by the sins of men. And at the exact same time, I see God working in and among us to engage in those things and change them.
I’m left believing that “what man meant for evil, God meant for good”. We get to choose how we will live AND God is present and taking an active role in our world. maybe… I dunno….
The real question should be:
Who are we going to be before God? God is faithful to those that love him.
However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him.”
Corinthians 2:9 (NIV)
Truth is in the tension. The real mindblower for me is that if we believe we have “control” because God designed and assigned dominion to us, then God’s destination is sovereign but the route is ever changing depending on us. For someone to believe this it would limit their definition of omniscience to everything there is to know He knows, yet that which does not exist (future) He would not know because our choices are constantly creating a new future? That’s a tough one to swallow.
I’m dizzy
What if its just that because God created us and intimately knows us, He knows what decisions we are going to make? That is, we have free will yet because God is God, He knows the choices we will make now and in the future.
God also exists outside time…there is no past, present or future for God. He just is – hence omniscience. Time has a beginning and an end, and God has both in His hands.
Having said that, the ever-changing nature of the route is how I think about our choices. The Israelites took 40 years to do a 40 day trip through their choices…God works with our choices to make all things work together for Him.
So here’s the explanation fro before.
My thoughts so far, and probably not in their entirety, are as follows:
1. Man was made in relationship with God, innocent and free, and was given choice (Gen. 1:29; 2:16-17;3:1-5).
2. Man freely chose to disbelieve God (Gen. 3:1-7) and with Adam and Eve, the whole human race also fell (Rom. 5:12-19). Innocence gone (Gen. 3:7-11). Freedom gone (Gen. 3:16-24). Completely free will, gone (Gen. 3:16; 4:6-7; 6:5). Relationship with God, broken (Gen. 3:8-10, 22-23; 4:6-7; 6:5-7).
3. Now man’s free will is like, to borrow the picture from John Piper, the free will of a skydiver before he realizes he has no parachute. The skydiver can do all sorts of things as he falls, but the way is always down. Scripture puts it this way: “When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regards to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end of those things is death,” (Rom. 6:20-21). “Jesus answered them, ‘Truly, truly I saw to you, everyone who commits sin in a slave to sin’,” (John 8:34). Read also Ephesians 2:1-3: “Dead in your trespasses and sins…”.
4. So, the entirely of mankind is enslaved to sin, but God had determined and promised to bring salvation (Gen. 3:15). So throughout history until Christ, man went his own way as a slave to his sin (Rom. 3:9-19), and God worked His will throughout. Cain and Abel, Noah, the Tower of Babel, Abraham, etc. All show man’s sin, God’s sovereign plan to save. God made covenants with all these people, in spite of their sin. True, some of these are spoken of as faithful and righteous; but first, God put his favor on them, approached them, kept up a relationship with them (Gen. 4:4; 6:8; 12:1-3). There are dozens more, but not enough room.
5. God always told mankind of the promise. He shared more and more of the picture as time went on. By the time of Ezekiel, God shared this: Though humanity, even God’s own people whom He had chosen and blessed, constantly rebelled and worshiped and believed created things instead of God, God would maintain His promise. He would come and get us, save us, give us new hearts (motivations, wellsprings of life), and then cause us to “walk is His statutes and be careful to obey His commands,” (Eze. 36:22-29).
Apparently, this is a big part of what it means to be saved. Once, we HAD to obey our master, Sin; but Jesus’ death set believers (who dies with Him – Gal. 2:19-20) free! So now we DON’T have to sin. Do we still? Yes. But less and less. And we cannot become slaves to sin again, because to sin, we are dead (Rom. 6:6-14).
6. Now is the hard part. And I completely agree with all who have said that the answer is “Yup” to both. But, I go back to Romans. “Let God be true, though every one were a liar,” (Rom. 3:4).
If humanity is powerless to obey God, to do what’s right without Jesus, then can we be surprised at the chaos, carnage, and cruelty? Aren’t we just seeing what God has already told us it true? We need Him to fix stuff. One of the ways He fixes stuff is through us. But HE gives the power, HE moves us forward (Phil. 2:12-13). HIS is the work and the glory for the success (Eph. 3:20). Our job is to obey, which now that we are free, we are willing and able to do!
This should cause us to pray more, to love others more, as we are God’s arms and legs in the world (the body of Christ), to look with expectation to the newness God has promised, to rejoice over all the evidence of that newness breaking through.
If God is good, why does evil still persist? Because God is good. He is patient. To destroy evil, in it’s entirety would mean, at least right now, to destroy us. In the meantime, everything that is happening is being used to bring glory to God and good to His people, even to those who aren’t His people yet, even to those who aren’t born yet. Joni Erikson Tada said, “Sometimes, God allows what He hates to accomplish what He loves.”
Final thought: A day is coming when evil will be ruined and when all of mankind will be new, not innocent like Adam and Eve, not slaves to sinful pleasures like we once were, but perfect, like Christ, our elder brother. Come quickly, Lord, make it so!
Wow. Thank you SO much for that word. I shall dive deep into it!
I enjoyed all said I just question the if God destroyed evil that would mean destroying us, right now – if we are saved, believers in Christ, our sins on Him, His perfect righteousness ours – are we not seen as beautiful and righteous by God therefore not evil and not in need of being destroyed? When I start thinking about these questions, thoughts, truths, ideas, I get so confused. Thanks for the all the insight, it has fed a great need in a very dry spell in my life.
Hello CarLos,
Re: Your question – Who is in Control GOD, or US? – I love the prior comments by Tony in March, and now I am another Johnny come lately to the discussion, in June of 2010
You are definitely not alone in your wrestling. Here are just a few more related wrestling thoughts
I have been a follower of Jesus Christ for nearly 50 years and I am not convinced that anyone has all the answers concerning HIS thoughts and HIS ways. HE stated: “My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways,’ says the Lord. ‘For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.” Isaiah 55:8-9
We have a grandchild with a life threatening blood disorder and I have seriously wrestled with your very same question. I have a tendency to think that GOD did not Control or cause our grandchild’s illness, nor do I believe that his parents did. And I am not convinced that there is some GODLY purpose for it either. Some believers believe that everything is in HIS Control and that HE has a purpose for everything that happens in life. In NIV Ecclesiastes 3:1 “There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: ” Same verse in King James: Ecc 3:1 “To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven”. Many believers think that this scripture implies a purpose for everything. But, this scripture surely is not implying that GOD Controls all human choices or behaviors, nor does it imply that there is a purpose for everything, it says that there is a time for every purpose. Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. Yes, HIS PURPOSE for us. Again His PURPOSE for us, would be that we serve Him, but he is not implying that everything else has a purpose. We know that humans have free will, and we also know that murder and mayhem, and many other horrors of this life, are not likely candidates for any purpose. For that matter, Carlos, it appears that someone else may be controlling the world these days . GOD is in Charge of Satan, to be sure, but we also know that GOD is allowing Satan to be the ruler of this world, scripture clearly states, that whole world is under Satan’s control, so for now we have another controller in the whole world: 1st John 5:19 states “We know that we are children of GOD, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one”. Although, HE allows Satan to rule the whole world for now, GOD is in fully in Control of him (Satan). Satan is a creature and God is the Creator. Therefore, we live in a fallen world, with it’s many horrors and calamities, but thankfully, we believers have been given another COMFORTER, the HOLY SPIRIT.
No doubt our Heavenly Father has a background purpose for allowing any and all of life’s positive and/or negative events, and surely HE is in Complete Control with HIS Over-ALL Plan. Likewise, I am fairly confident, that HE/GOD, does not control our eternal decisions. We know that he leaves this entirely in our hands. HE either gave ADAM free will or HE did not. Since we have freedom to choose and obey HIM , we also have freedom to choose and disobey HIM. I think you would also agree that he usually does not pick what salad we choose for dinner either. He leaves most of life’s routine living decisions in our hands.
Carlos, I am confident that you believe GOD is behind everything and in CHARGE of everything, directly or indirectly, but not in a controlling way. If GOD ‘micro-managed’ all of our lives, then we would be mere puppets on a string, without a free will at all. HE gave us great freedom in HIM and HIS desire is for all people to love and to obey HIM, and I know that you know, that the rest is up to us. Carlos, keep on wrestling and I will too, because we each want to know his complete WILL and HIS PURPOSE for our lives. After considering all of these responses to your question, please let us know what you think of our collective thoughts.
Rob
it’s interesting that we look at the “evil” in the world and have questions about where is God?
The problem with the world is not suffering, flat out depravity, etc… that should be expected. We are all fallen and gross. So of course there is pain and hurt in the world. The surprise is that there is anything good.
The surprise is that God is in control and shares His goodness with us despite our sinful hearts.
ANY glimpse of God in our world shows that he is in control, becuase that can’t come from us.
I’m ok with suffering in the world and God still controlling it. I’m ok with horror in the world and it being part of God’s plan.
I CANNOT have a religion that is based upon the crucifixion of an innocent, perfect God/man and then question when hard/evil/horrible things happen in this world. It’s funny to me that we celebrate the cross being “God’s plan”, and then question the hard things in our own lives and say, “Surely this isn’t God’s plan…”
“In this world you WILL have trouble (Jesus promised us this, apparently he is in control and knew it), but take heart, I have overcome the WORLD.” To overcome something would seem you are pretty in control of it.
Trusting.
Amen…
Yes, Amen!
Thanks loswhit for being honest and sharing. This is a good conversation. I wish everyone that has commented could get together with you and we could wrestle with these things over a beer and wings.
These things are confusing and we wil always have lots of questions. So, I think the real question is not “Why is there so much evil in the world if we serve a loving, Sovereign God” but rather “How is it that i have been so sinful and committed horrendous sins in the last hour and God has not wiped me off the face of the earth?” I think these questions should always drive us to our knees in worship and awe of Jesus.
OK. Buffalos. Tonight. 7 pm
Wow… Maybe in the new earth ATL will be right down the block from NYC…
How about Tracy’s here in MN?:)
I wish!
I’ve yet to read anyone else’s response, and maybe someone else has already responded with this, but…
I think, no, I know, that God gives us the power of choice. He allows us to love Him, because it is what we are created to do and what the innermost part of desires to do. With the power of choice and temptation, we have victimized the world with our sefishness greed. In our choices we have slowly torn about his creation. God can take over at any moment and have control over this earth again. He however, has decided to let us learn through our failures and screw-ups. Meanwhile, His heart breaks and hurts, because we continue to be selfish with our own needs, and overlook the CONSTANT pain and struggle of those around us. We were created to LOVE. Does anyone else feel that we have forgotten what that even means!?
God is in control, and in the control, He is choosing to let us have a part of this world, hoping that we choose HIM. Not just part of Him, but ALL of Him. If we do that, then the poverty, the pain, the sufferings are not as many, and are not in vain.
Sorry dude but you will have one heck of a hard time backing up your story biblically. Seriously, your version of God makes him look ridiculous. Can you back up what you are saying biblically?
Please explain deeper if you will how “my version of God” makes him look ridiculous. Feel free to email me, kylejreese@gmail.com. Maybe you misunderstand what I stated, or my statement delivery was poor. Either way, I’m interested in sharing dialogue with you. Thanks!
Genesis 2:15 says, “The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.”
I think we were given enough control to take care of this place, but we have done a pretty bad job of that.
My thoughts are pretty simple, its a war between good and evil on this earth..and the manifestations of evil are all around us.. drugs, greed, fratricde, patricide and on and on.. all that is evil is the work of Satan and his troops, and the war , the battle goes on..
i think of it like we’re responsible for our actions here; that’s why they have consequences. Paul says in 2 Cor. 5 that we’ll give an account of everything that we’ve done in this body to the LORD. we are rewarded, it says in Matthew 25, for feeding, clothing, visiting, etc. those around us.
Just found your blog!
Great topic, in fact I did a short podcast on my blog called, “God is Not in Charge.” I believe He gave us all free will to make choices. If everything was just “meant to be” then why does Scripture talk so much about praying and asking for His help? I am very glad He is kind and loving and does help us, but we ought to stop blamming Him for the messes we make.
Wow … this is a discussion I’ve had a zillion times in the past 5 years after being severely hurt in an accident. Yes, we call it an accident – so is it and accident or not?
I had multitudes of people tell me things like … God planned it, it’s for my good, I’m special (this one made me want to hit them and I’m not a violent person) it’s cause God loves me and has something good planned for me, but first has to teach/prepare/discipline me and the list goes on.
Has any good come from my injuries – yes, some has. I learned a lot from what I went through and the limitations/pain I still live with, but I wish I could have learned it another way.
I have come to the conclusion that while God uses bad things, he doesn’t cause them. Yes, yes, I know – what about his sovereignty, what about the Job story, etc. One thing about Job – many miracles and other events are listed in the Bible – but very rarely do we get the same results today. Such as, if you fall overboard, do you think you’d be rescued by a big fish? Or when you see someone blind, do you rub mud on their eyes to heal them? No, those events are exceptions to the norm – could the Job story be the same? Just cause his suffering was okayed by God, doesn’t mean all suffering is. Isn’t that putting God in a box?
As for God’s sovereignty … I’m going to direct you to someone wiser than me – Rachel Held Evans. Love this quote from her – “I believe that God is in control. I do not believe that God controls.”
check out Rachel’s blog: http://rachelheldevans.com/is-god-in-control
I can understand what you mean by that. I have always seen God allowing things to happen and break us while he is in the background watching. Maybe he is just a observer who shows love to people
What a great conversation…one wrinkle that I don’t think my mind will ever quite grasp in all this is how free will is even possible if God exists outside of time.
From where we’re sitting it’s possible, but we’re stuck experiencing life moment by moment. God is uncreated, eternal and outside of time.
And so the Scriptures demand that we pray, and teach us how. Jesus talks about the day of judgement, when people are held accountable for their lives (yucky word, but it’s in there). So there’s choice.
And at the same time, in Jeremiah, the Proverbs, Ephesians, Revelation, and a whole mess of other places we’re told that God not only knows the future, but has also predetermined salvation and maybe even history (Prov 16:9, Jeremiah 10:23, Rev 13:8, etc). A rough thought on the front end perhaps, but my brothers in the reformed camp believe it for good, biblical reasons.
For me, it comes down to this.
I think if the Bible is okay with giving us a both/and answer, I can live with it, too, even if I don’t really understand it all.
It just forces me to depend on Christ because my eyes are so small, but he sees everything. Or all, if you’re the rhyming type.
Man, I wish I’d seen Janet’s comment before I posted mine…thanks for the honesty. Very good stuff!
Read Job. Satan must come before God to get HIS PERMISSION on anything. No events that we encounter will ever come to us prior to being sifted by the very hands of God. Daniel is another good example. Joseph in Genesis is yet another great example.
Jerry Bridges in his book ‘Transforming Grace’ (paraphrase) says that God is not interested in our happiness. He is interested in our holiness. Tragedy, challenges, disease, pain, sorrow, ill…all of it has has been authored/designed/ok’ed by God to refine us, prune us, shape us, purify us, and mold us for His glory.
May we look more and more like Him.
my only answer to this is…
“yes”
I have come to realise my friend, that we live in a world full of extremes: rain-drought, life-death, fire-water, etc but we believe in a God who is constant. No matter what happens around us, He graciously calms the storm that rages inside of us, not that rages around us as this is life . Peace that passes understanding…I see things that I grapple with, get angry with, but freel content knowing the God of the universe lives in me.
Dude I feel you.
I’m wrestling through Epicurus these days in my own little corner of the interwebs and I’ve come across the same issue.
This is always a tough subject to wrestle with, but I’ve recently heard an analogy that makes sense to me. Remember those Goosebumps books that you could choose your own ending. You would read a chapter and at the end of the chapter you got to decide where you want the story to go, but depending on the choice you chose you would go to a certain page. What if it’s something similar to that with God? We can choose what we do at the end of each chapter, and control in that sense what happens, but God wrote the entire book. So God knows exactly which page our choice will take us to and our final destination. God wrote the entire “book” of our life, and while we get to choose which direction to go at the end of the chapter, God still knows exactly where that choice leads.
Anyways, when I heard that analogy, it seemed to make a little more sense to me. Just thought I’d throw it out there.
I also think of Job when the sovereignty of God is wrestled with;
Job-”I don’t understand, I don’t understand and I MUST understand!!!”
God-”What makes you so sure that you even CAN understand?”
I think that perhaps the true crux of the matter is less “why does God allow evil to exist?” and more “why do I so often choose it?”
Well crap! Now you’ve done it. I have taught and written on many, many occasions something along the lines of “Look people, either God is Sovreign, or He’s not. He’s in charge, even of the bad stuff!”
Now you’ve gone and given me something to hash over. Just because God is Sovreign, doesn’t mean He HAS to control everything. And, that gives a more legitimate answer to the issue of squaring up His control, with our free will…
This is definitely something I’ve wrestled with… I’ve thought before of someone sending a shot out of their gun and the bullet whizzing by so many people and hitting one and how God somehow put that person there in that exact second and knew the time of their death before it happened. He controlled all that and yet we have free will. That blows my mind! I just keep coming back to the fact that my mind is so small and really nothing compared to God and I just have to trust that He somehow works out our free choice with his will… I’m going to be studying more of what Sarahbeth wrote up there as well.
a few thoughts…starting in Genesis and Romans….man fell..sin entered…the wages of sin is death. next I am reminded that in Genesis God told Adam to rule the earth, land, animals etc. next I think of the reality that without the transforming power of Christ, there is nothing man can do to break free of the power and results of sin and death. So the only hope is for as many people as possible to be spiritually reborn through the faith so that they can have the choice to choose life instead of sin and death. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only hope. Then as James tells us…faith without works is dead…
I have a question based on Jenn’s scenario. (2 comments up)
God knows all, so he knows the day the person will die that gets hit with a bullet, but does that have to mean he caused it? Maybe the line about our days being numbered means he knows the number of days we will live, cause he knows all … but does it have to mean he causes the untimely deaths? Maybe they are caused by other reasons – someone’s bad choice/accident/disease/etc.
Carlos,
I have been reading your blog for a while. I get a great deal of satisfaction from it, often feeling enlightened, or intrigued. All this despite the fact that I live in Australia, and am a non practicing catholic who struggles alot with religion in general. I often think I would go to church if there was someone like you near me.
Anyway… the point of my comment is this…
I often ponder on the power of God, and try to decide if I believe He is an ‘interventionist God’ (as phrased in a beautiful song called into my arms by Nick Cave) or if he, as your scripture states, gave the world to us and does not interfere.
However whenever I wrestle with this I think of a very good friend of mine, who is very firm in her faith, although not blind to it’s flaws. When I questioned her about the conflicting nature of religion one time she looked me in the eye and said ‘Janna, I do not have an answer. But that is why they call it Faith’.
I respect that answer more than any other I have ever been given. I admire her strength of her FAITH, and her ability to be content with that. Your post reminded me of that.
Freewill. God gave us “freewill.”
Dude!! Thanks!! As a former youth pastor I too have wrestled with this!! I have heard it said this way before that has brought me great comfort:
“Many times we say that “IF” God is in control how could this or that happen. That is the wrong word. We should say, “SINCE” God is in control why is this happening and why can I do to fulfill God’s plan in this?”
For me I lived through Hurricane Katrina. It was horrible!! Bodies floating down the street. People hurting, death everywhere. In all of this and SINCE God is in control what could I do to help those that need him most? Be like Jesus.
I know we will never totally understand this but for me this has helped me in my wrestling with God and walking with a limp.
Much love
Might it be as simple as us having the free will to give him control? Isn’t grace all about realizing we cannot do it on our own? He taught us that with The Law…and then fulfilled the law with Jesus…giving us grace. Don’t we just need to acknowledge it? Acknowledge it’s not in our control and submit it to him? So he can use it for good??? I believe the Gospel is simple. And I believe the Gospel is Good News. Period. LOVE that you posted this question!
God is in control. And we control our actions (freewill). I think those are completely contradictory statements but also completely true. I just think we’re God so we don’t get it – we maybe can’t get it. That’s why we’re not God.
I also believe that when you’re emotionally attached to one specific example of this, it’s almost impossible to accept it.
From a stay at home mom who spends more time changing diapers, rolling around on the floor with toddlers, scrubbing toilets and clipping coupons than having deep theological thoughts, thanks
I’m so late to the party, but stumbled across this discussion and figured what the heck… I probably don’t have much to say that has not already been said, but as someone forced to wrestle with this subject, I want to offer two thoughts. My faith was tested about 3 years ago with the most devastating event in my life. I had friends who had preached to me that God was so in control that he makes everything that happens in the world come to pass, and the results don’t really matter because we deserve death and hell anyway, He is holy and we are not!
But this situation forced me to question this theology and scripture seems to be planted on both sides, God is in control, yet as you pointed out, the bible seems to suggest we are co-creators with God in this earth and this life… when new things are invented and new buildings are erected… its not simply his breadth that produces, but our cooperation with Him that creates. So I think Genesis and the psalms and countless other passages suggest we work with God in this life. And along those same lines, sometimes we work things not according to his will and God is grieved… the same people who point to Job, refuse to use the same hermeneutic with Noah and the Flood. God was grieved and pushed the restart button… what kind of extreme and sovereign control is that. Things got so out of hand he had to call for a “do-over”!!!
And lastly, I have learned that having all the answers is not important anymore, and I don’t think the bible is given to us as a study guide for the test of life that has a right answer to every question. BUT I have found that as I seek the answers are wrestle with each situation in my life, I find this amazing savior on the other end of my questions and sometimes he is not holding a white card with the answer written in black… sometimes he just stands alone as THE ANSWER! And in this I have found comfort, not cheezy “Jesus is the answer, just give everything to Him, answers” but the kind of faith that says, I don’t have to have the answer to EVERYTHING to trust you! So with my uncertainty I trust you Jesus! Check out The Great Commission and look at the word used to describe the 11 he gives the command to as they are watching Jesus about to leave them forever!!! They didn’t have all the answers, and these men changed the world!!! The opposite of faith is not fear… it’s certainty! If you think you are certain of everything, then you are not operating in faith. Is God in control, and yet are we somehow in control with God… YEP : )
Peace
Tony
Hello Los,
Re: Your question – Who is in Control GOD, or US? – I love the prior comments by Tony in March, and now I am another Johnny come lately to the discussion, in June of 2010
You are definitely not alone in your wrestling. Here are just a few more related wrestling thoughts
I have been a follower of Jesus Christ for nearly 50 years and I am not convinced that anyone has all the answers concerning HIS thoughts and HIS ways. HE stated: “My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways,’ says the Lord. ‘For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.” Isaiah 55:8-9
We have a grandchild with a life threatening blood disorder and I have seriously wrestled with your very same question. I have a tendency to think that GOD did not Control or cause our grandchild’s illness, nor do I believe that his parents did. And I am not convinced that there is some GODLY purpose for it either. Some believers believe that everything is in HIS Control and that HE has a purpose for everything that happens in life. In NIV Ecclesiastes 3:1 “There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: ” Same verse in King James: Ecc 3:1 “To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven”. Many believers think that this scripture implies a purpose for everything. But, this scripture surely is not implying that GOD Controls all human choices or behaviors, nor does it imply that there is a purpose for everything, it says that there is a time for every purpose. Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. Yes, HIS PURPOSE for us. Again His PURPOSE for us, would be that we serve Him, but he is not implying that everything else has a purpose. We know that humans have free will, and we also know that murder and mayhem, and many other horrors of this life, are not likely candidates for any purpose. For that matter, Los, it appears that someone else may be controlling the world these days . GOD is in Charge of Satan, to be sure, but we also know that GOD is allowing Satan to be the ruler of this world, scripture clearly states, that whole world is under Satan’s control, so for now we have another controller in the whole world: 1st John 5:19 states “We know that we are children of GOD, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one”. Although, HE allows Satan to rule the whole world for now, GOD is in fully in Control of him (Satan). Satan is a creature and God is the Creator. Therefore, we live in a fallen world, with it’s many horrors and calamities, but thankfully, we believers have been given another COMFORTER, the HOLY SPIRIT.
No doubt our Heavenly Father has a background purpose for allowing any and all of life’s positive and/or negative events, and surely HE is in Complete Control with HIS Over-ALL Plan. Likewise, I am fairly confident, that HE/GOD, does not control our eternal decisions. We know that he leaves this entirely in our hands. HE either gave ADAM free will or HE did not. Since we have freedom to choose and obey HIM , we also have freedom to choose and disobey HIM. I think you would also agree that he usually does not pick what salad we choose for dinner either. He leaves most of life’s routine living decisions in our hands.
Los, I am confident that you believe GOD is behind everything and in CHARGE of everything, directly or indirectly, but not in a controlling way. If GOD ‘micro-managed’ all of our lives, then we would be mere puppets on a string, without a free will at all. HE gave us great freedom in HIM and HIS desire is for all people to love and to obey HIM, and I know that you know, that the rest is up to us. Los, keep on wrestling and I will too, because we each want to know his complete WILL and HIS PURPOSE for our lives. After considering all of these responses to your question, please let us know what you think.
Rob