If A Fat Man Can Lead A Church…My Reply
Yesterday I posted an email I received from a good friend who was laid off because he admitted that he struggled with homosexuality.
Go see the post and read the comments if you can stomach it.
Honestly…
If we spoke to each other in real life the way some of the commenters spoke to each other…
It could almost be enough to take a Bic to my ears.
Reminded me of this a bit…
Anyways…
I responded to him BEFORE I ever wrote that post.
While reading the comments I honestly almost decided not to post my reply…
Because I’m not NEAR as smart as most of you.
I mean I read my Bible…A Lot…
But I’m just a beautiful mess of a idiot.
So decided to post it anyways.
Because that is what I said I’d do.
Cause if the only people who can live a “true” Christian life are the smart ones who can read Greek, then we are all screwed.
Look at me. Full of integrity and stuff.
At least once a month or so.
So here is what I wrote my buddy *****.
I know many will want more, less, or whatever…Thank God I wasn’t writing it to the many…just to my buddy.
******,
Dude. That sucks. Sucks. I know your heart. I know your story. I know your struggle.
Well actually, I don’t know your struggle…but you know what I mean.
Listen. I’m not a theologian. I don’t have a doctorate. It took me like 10 years to get my BA.
So what I know is only from walking my journey with Jesus and not a greek dictionary. Here’s the deal.
You admit that it is a struggle. I admit that when a hot chick walks by I don’t always bounce my eyes. I try. But I fail.
That failure, whenever it happens in many other areas of my life as well cause a division between Jesus, Heather, and I.
Whether that be porn, lying, overeating, laziness, whatever. It drives a big fat steak between Jesus, Heather, and I.
Me? I am a lusting man that is on a journey towards redemption by the power and blood of Jesus Christ.
You? You are a gay man that is on a journey towards redemption by the power and blood of Jesus Christ.
Your gluttonous boss? He is a gluttonous man that is on a journey towards redemption by the power and blood of Jesus Christ.
The key to your question for me is “struggles”. This would assume that there is a conviction and wrestling match with sin in both of your lives. If you are struggling with this…and you went to your gluttonous pastor asking for help, and he drop kicked you without trying to come alongside you… Jesus would not have done that. Just an FYI.
But you know what? He’s also not Jesus. He might be trying like hell to be, or heaven, but he’s not Jesus.
So. Now what? As a gay man called to lead people to Jesus…
Love the crap out of your pastor. Love him till it hurts.
You are obviously not meant to work alongside him.
But if you are still the same ****** that I’ve always known…then you are called to ministry. You are.
And your ministry has just shifted… From loving 150 people from on stage… To loving 151 people off stage… And that one extra…love him like you would have wanted him to love you last week.
Jesus first…
second…
and third…
Carlos
In the coming days we will be diving in a bit closer to the heart of this as I interview a good friend of mine who is ready to come out of the blog closet with his struggle with being gay and working in a church…
So keep putting your bullhorn down and pick up a cup of coffee and whisper with me these next few days…
Drip Jesus…
Los
RAIN IT DOWN
Carlos, your response is awesome
right on
yes. yes. yes.
this is why i love you, friend.
thanks for posting this.
*applause*
Ministry isn’t only for those who are perfect or behind a pulpit.
I am a minister. Even in my house, without a mic, and sinful.
I can’t do it without Jesus, none of us can.
I pray your friend can overcome his struggles, as well as I pray we all can.
Nice response Los! BTW – the color scheme you use for the letter is tough to read (at least on my Win7 box running the newest Firefox) – not enough contrast between text and background for these eyes to easily read! But then again, I do have an eye appointment in 45 minutes…
Carlos, I hope your friend was uplifted by your reply. It was a beautiful response to a really tough issue.
I especially appreciate your point that he, the pastor…all of us have our struggles. I think we lose our way when we look at each other and say “But what about them…?”
One of the best things God ever showed me was that He loves all of us, but he mostly loves EACH of us. One at a time. And He’s making us into His image one at at time–one person at a time, one struggle at a time.
You handled it with grace and that is soooo what the church (and the world) needs.
Mary Hampton
Thank you Carlos. I struggled with the hatred that spewed forth in the words that I saw yesterday. And yet I tried so hard to speak a hierarchy or sins and rules. I couldn’t speak the words I wanted because I struggled with them.
Thank you for giving words!
what supersimbo said.
this is why i keep reading this site.
Grace and botherly advice. Spot on.
The big difference between you and everyone commenting on the last post is that this man is your friend and you responded as a friend. That’s something to learn from this: before jumping in to condemn someone, imagine it’s your best friend. Or brother.
That should be ‘brotherly’, obvioulsy…
we don’t need to imagine he’s our brother – he is our brother.
Yep. And that’s something easily forgotten when it’s an abstract situation.
If possible, imagine it’s being written to you. You’re the one who just lost your position, and potentially friends…etc.
You’re the one who’s hurt and need of Christ’s love.
This is great. This is what a good friend should say. Don’t let the 900 comments on your last post detract from what you needed to say friend to friend.
what a loving response, you really care about this dude…
Jesus said sin no more – but how easy is to do that. Do you realize wihtout even saying it bluntly you characterized homosexuality to him as a sin like gluttony is. Homosexuals dont think they are sinning – they think they are born that way and maybe some of them are. God says he will always give us a way out .. even when we dont want to take it. I will say a prayer for your freind whom shouldnt of been fired for that reason. I will also say a prayer for him in his current state as I believe he can do better in many ways. I am not passing judgement – I stripped to pay my bills when my husband was killed by a drunk driver & I too went down dark paths submerged in a dark world where what isnt normal becomes normal by many ..its the world.. I hope and pray your freind has a bright future : )
Doesn’t seem to answer the underlying question. It’s a nice start so I’m sure a more complete answer is forthcoming.
The larger issue is the difference in sin. Not all sins are equal. Sexual sins (both hetero and homo) carry a deeper judgment than others according to Scripture.
I am curious how you will answer your friend using the qualifications for church leadership laid out in the pastoral epistles. There is a mark leaders are called to, overt sinful lifestyles are not that mark.
Also, the idea that all obese (or as your friend has said, fat) people are gluttons. Some have legitimate weight issues. As someone else in the other comments rightly pointed out not all ministers are (or should be) called to wear skinny jeans, messy hair, black rimmed glasses, and affliction tshirts. Ministry is done by those who fit a look or style.
The qualifications for church leadership in the pastoral epistles speak directly to life conduct. We are qualified to lead as we conduct lives of sacrifice and growing sanctification. I’m thankful for your friendship with this person.
Sometimes Robert…the point isn’t always to be right.
Sometimes we just need to extend grace.
What’s going to help this person most? Throwing the letter of the law at him or smothering him in grace?
Grace by definition is unmerited favor.
Look at it this way…the church is a body. If part of your body is sick you’ll do everything you can to get it healed rather than just cutting it off.
This dude was hurting and no one offered to help him or to love him struggles and all. They just went for the saw and decided to amputate him.
When we do that…when we cut people off like that…we end up walking with a limp.
Beautiful post Los.
When it comes to leading God’s church there is a biblical standard on right and pure. God’s standard for those called out to lead is purity, fidelity, and humility. (1 Timothy 1:3-11; 3:1-13; 4:6-10; 6:11-16; Titus 1:5-16; 1 Peter 1:13-16)
As I mentioned above, I am thankful for this post and the poster’s relationship with this friend. We all come before the Cross and seek the grace of God. No one is disqualified to find mercy, no one is disqualified from the grace of God.
When it comes to church leadership, it is simply this: The Bride of Christ is too pure to deviate from God’s standard.
Do you have any close friends who are gay or who struggle with this? Pretend for a moment that the person we are talking about is your son or best friend. Would your tone or approach be different? Again, it’s not about being right, but offering hope to someone who is defeated. And, shouldn’t it be easy to find hope within the body of Christ?
I agree that there are standards….but if we’re not careful we start acting and sounding just like the pharisees. The issue I see is that we can tolerate just about any other sin in the church but not homosexuality. Maybe we’re more homophobic than we are biblical in our view of sin. I agree that it is a sin…as is lying…pride…gluttony…vanity…and so many things that you and I struggle with…..so maybe we should show some compassion and let him without sin cast the first stone.
Robert-you scripturally point out, “God’s standard for those called out to lead is purity, fidelity, and humility. (1 Timothy 1:3-11; 3:1-13; 4:6-10; 6:11-16; Titus 1:5-16; 1 Peter 1:13-16)”.
Many in the church don’t even act like pride is a sin–it’s labeled confidence or “leadership skills”…I have YET to meet a pastor that doesn’t struggle with pride/humility & most pastors I have encountered are yet aware of their issues of pride. STILL ….our *best righteousness is still filthy rags to Him who makes the standard. that’s why we all need the grace that Jesus provides…no matter what our sin is.
The one thing I’ve noticed is when people refer to homosexuality as a sin, they see it as a 24/7 lifestyle. The temptation comes and goes just like a heterosexual. When you are fighting that temptation, you are not a homosexual, you are a straight man after God’s heart and struggling with a sin. There’s no difference between that and struggling with lying. Liars don’t think about lying 24/7. That doesn’t define who they are. Our culture has used the term “gay” as the end-all definition of someone who struggles with homosexuality when really, that’s not the case. Most people who struggle with homosexuality would rather be straight, but they just aren’t attracted to a woman.
The guy is a brother in Christ with struggles just like you Robert. Don’t be so quick to judge him as a leader of the church. He may fight it with all his being and just simply told the pastor that it’s something he struggles with, not that he’s wrapped up in the lifestyle.
Oh, and if hetero and homo sins are equal though worse, then if you’ve ever masturbated or had sex outside of marriage (with either sex) then according to your definition of church leadership you’re unworthy of that position.
Oh, and why can some people have hormonal weight issues and yet other people can’t be borne with a pre-disposition to homosexuality? That doesn’t make homosexuality right, it just means that’s what your body’s attracted to and that’s a sin you struggle with. Just like guys who struggle with alcoholism. They were born with that struggle, now they have to fight it. We live in a fallen world and people are born with sin, hence the need for Jesus. That’s just one of the options they can get.
Robert,
I struggle with grasping the difference in weight of sins. I know that sexual sin bears a heavier weight than other sins, but what defines sexual sin? Is just the thought of something sexual a sexual sin? If so then we are all as leaders in a big mess of trouble.
I want to pose this question to you. If a man struggles with a homosexual thought in his mind where sin comes from, but does not act on that natural sin impulse has he not taken the way out that God provided for him?
Peter when asked three times if he was with Jesus… Denied Him! Yet, for lacking integrity in the moment he led the early church. This man has not denied Jesus, but simply reached out to someone who as a leader should embody the same desire of Jesus – to help the hurting. By helping I don’t mean throwing a man out of the ministry because he struggles with a sin and is in need of accountability and mentorship to get through his feelings, and for that he was turned away and not pulled in closer.
I love this discussion and Robert thank you for your post. I agree with you that the leaders of the church are held more accountable.
Robert isnt judging this pastor, he is using the counsel of the Word of God to make a clear determination if he has disqualified himself from ministering to the body of Christ.
If this pastor is engaging in homosexual activity, he needs to remove himself from leadership position.
Jesus made it very clear that those who love Him obey His Word. James, Titus, 1st Timothy speak of the qualifications of the elders and exhort not to have many teachers because of the higher accountability church leaders take on.
I think your response was good…not that what I think matters. And from reading some of the other things you’ve written, I have no doubt that when you know in your knower that you’re being convicted to speak with less rounded edges…you would do it. Grace…if all we ever had was grace…wouldn’t we bring so many more people to the Cross?
Hey man, I think god, who is all knowing, made those of us who are theologians and read greek… Just like he made those of us who will forget what agape means. We balance each other out. We each fall in our own way,and often we need that greek knowing theologian to help pick us up. Its like ying and yang… And jesus is thos little dots in there because he is both and we can’t be complete without those dots.
Most important thing we can do… Love. Ya know the agape kind.
Hey Carlos. I like it – good words for your friend.
Being smart doesn’t make you holy, but it can make you sound that way.
And that’s dangerous.
Brother…raw honest love and humility. wow. That’s how love is done.
Thanks for the lesson…
Amen. Couldn’t have said it better. Honestly, I didn’t read through all the comments on the other post (resisted THAT temptation), but that kept popping in my brain when I skimmed them was that everyone was so quick to point out the self-righteousness of others’ perspectives. Really, if we were loving like Jesus, we wouldn’t be pouncing on the legalists OR pouncing on the struggling closet-homosexuals. If we were honest, we’d remember how each of us are living stories of redemption–not of perfection.
It’s given me much to chew on…
Great point.
bravo!
you embraced, spoke truth and asked hard questions, in love. exactly as we’re called to do.
beautiful.
Yes!
I know of a pastor who struggles with homosexuality but is still in ministry. It made me think for a while, but I came to this same conclusion that you gave your friend. It made me say, “wow.” Wow at myself, wow at God, wow at other people.
Oops not pastor, but worship leader or youth leader i think.
wow. that was a good word to your friend, AND to anyone else reading it. thanks.
I followed the comments but never posted out of fear of “public” humiliation, but also the lack of an answer.
I’ll stick with you: “So what I know is only from walking my journey with Jesus. …
And that one extra…love him like you would have wanted him to love you last week.
Jesus first…
second…
and third…”
and @FayZ: “True grace has no agendas. Jesus first, then the rest. Rinse your brain. Repeat.”
Thanks for sharing your response. I know you said what the Holy Spirit wanted you to say. That’s all God asks of you. Kudos.
Nice, Los.
What a loving response. Your friend is lucky to have someone who can come along side of him just to say “I don’t know all of the answers but I love you” I pray that he crawls into Jesus’ arms and starts to sort through the struggle and the war that he is facing.
Carlos,
There are so many replies and so many areas of thought, so many hard lines and opinions and convictions on this subject. But one thing you knew needed to be said to your friend, because you know him better than your readers do, is that Jesus loves him and wants to restore him. We all need to be reminded of that in our own struggles.
Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself. You communicated love. You didn’t deny that it’s sin, but assured him that he can be set free. You validated his efforts. You showed compassion for the struggle. You supported him and mentioned your own failings. You don’t need a seminary degree for that. Good job, brother.
Wow, I’m glad that most of my fellow Christians DON’T have to deal with homosexual issues because they don’t have the guts. It’s all well and easy when we struggle with more “acceptable” sins… alocholics and adulterers can bounce back, right? Glad my sins are more acceptable and so very glad that all of us can count on the unfailing and unmerited love, mercy and grace of Jesus… because sadly we won’t find that with many of our brothers and sisters.
Amen!
Glad Jesus accepts us all with our sins, UNCONDITIONALLY.
GREAT response!!!
you spoke truth out of love.
i LIKE you.
hahahahhahahahaha
Very nice, man.
love and grace is great and wonderful, but we do a disservice to t our friends if we don’t also speak truth.
what you said to your friend was said with love & grace but with a lot of truth. so, well said. and i pray for him as i would you and myself and anyone on this journey. we’re never arrived. we all have a part to play.
ever learning.
ever growing.
ever becoming more like Him.
I wanted to post a reply yesterday and I’m so glad I didn’t!
Thank you, Los! What you wrote in reply to your friend is so much more than a theological discussion about sin… Thank you!
Jesus first…
second…
and third…
AMEN!
And, I second Chris’ comment on colorscheme… It’s pretty hard to read and I’m on a Mac.
Carlos, you did an excellent job saying what needed to be said. Don’t know you, don’t read you much, never been in the same building with you. But I’m proud to call you a brother…
Ballin’! <3
All I can think is that I am SO grateful that you have allowed God to pour His wisdom into you and then straight through you. Thank you, on behalf of your friend and so many others who are in similar situations as he is, that you chose to love the person, to love as God loves.
A similar conversation came up with my youth group just last night. I think I’m going to jot down some thoughts from what you said and use it for their (and my) benefit.
WOW!!! Amazing!!! I see God shining through that response to your buddy. And its something that is relevant to all of us who struggle with sin and separation from God.
Thank you for sharing this!
Los
I responded to the other post also – but you are on track. We are to come along side our brothers and sisters in Christ and when they struggle with something, we help them get focused on God. I do have to say that all Leaders (ministers) as a CALLED profession by God must seek to be leaders as Christ was and if we are not willing to give up our sin’s to repent from actions that are sinful then we should step down as a leader and work on our relationship with God. We are all on Journey’s working on our life as a sinful flesh to stay focused on God and His will – nothing different about my sins compared to yours or anyone else – GOD HATES ALL SIN! But we have to have that conviction and we must be repenting from them turning toward God for guidance and love. I encourage you to come along side your bother in Christ and help him – walk along side him pointing to God and seeking God’s wisdom. God Bless.
I liked your response.
BA or GED, Seminary or on the streets, the list could go on…we all need Jesus, and we all need people to journey with us in truth and love.
Keep journeying & loving! Thanks for being and saying what Jesus wants.
awww, i love my pastor.
hi ron.
Mercy triumphs over judgment. That’s what matters most. Thanks for responding with mercy.
distinction of sexual sin v. other sins? yes, sexual sin is completely called out by Jesus… but so is idolatry. In fact, it seems to me (an un-greek scholar) idolatry is ‘root’. Sex and twinkies are ‘fruit’. If we only want Jesus, we won’t chase after false idols such as food, sex, etc…
Jesus hammered the religious scholars because they thought by obeying the law, they were justified. But we have to remember that we’re the ones in those sandals…the religious, the conservative, the ones with the Perfect Attender ribbons.
I don’t struggle with homosexuality. I struggle with pride…and in that case, I make an idol out of myself. I guess I’m just not ready to cast stones at a Christian brother for his own struggle when I am not yet fully redeemed.
thanks, Los.
Drip on.
Tom… excellent. I was wrestling with how to respond to the comment before, and you took the words wonderfully out of out my mouth.
The struggle is not the sin… and I praise God for Paul in Romans 7 that shows me the struggle is the wrestling of the old man against the new man. Sure, the struggle looks different for all of us (I never had the perfect attender award!), but nonetheless, the struggle will remain until we see Him face to Face.
grateful for brothers and sisters who get it.
“sex and twinkies are fruit” BWAHAHAHAH!
sorry…it struck as funny…
Good stuff Los.
This issue is one of the closest issues to my heart as I have seen people I love get drop kicked by the church on the issue.
check this conversation out – http://www.vimeo.com/6344577 probably the most powerful church service I have been a part of. skip ahead to the interviews.
I’ll add my props in support of the video. I’ve seen it before. Listen to what God has done!
proud to be your friend and proud of you.
Hello,
I don’t know you, at all, but I am friends with one of your friends. I saw this blog come up on my newfeed and I HAD to tell you what I think.
I think you are amazingly courageous. I am in college at a very progressive Christian school on the East Coast. I lead the LGBT group on campus, and yes, we are a Christian group! It is not about changing the people in the group and ridding them of their homosexuality. It is about loving each person, gay or straight, for the EXACT person God made them to be.
I personally would say to you, there is room for you in the kingdom, there is room for you as a pastor, and there is room for you to be a gay minister. I tend to laugh when people try to explain what God thinks is a bigger sin ( I am not even certain being gay is a sin). God is a big enough God to take on this battle for you. YOU are gay, not the neighbor next to you, and if they think it is a sin, it is not separating them from their relationship with God. It is about YOUR relationship with God.
Jesus NEVER lays out a heirarchy of sin for us, so we shouldn’t create one either. Homosexuality makes people uncomfortable, plain and simple. Sadly, I feel like many Christians believe that there is more strength in creating a movement against something, when in reality we should be FOR people, not against them.
I don’t know my complete “theological” stance on homosexuality, but I do no that Jesus never directly speaks against it. And if Jesus isn’t going to speak against something, I sure as heck will not.
I say love and understand on this topic is the answer. And I say… be an openly-gay minister. There are plenty of people who will support and love you– including the God who created you.
Love to you.
“And your ministry has just shifted… love him like you would have wanted him to love you last week.”
oh, man – beautiful … I seriously teared up because I’ve finally started really praying for those who have persecuted me … I know we’re told to, but honestly, I didn’t ever really want to … then I looked at the person like I’d want them to look at me – a sinner, trying desperately to live a changed life … with pressures and failures and sin struggles … we can’t know anyone like God knows them, but we can love them like Jesus wants us to … well done
Chills. As the sister of both my own gay brother and my husband’s gay brother my heart needed to hear your loving, honest, response. The vitriolic discourse in the comments yesterday was difficult for me to read. My heart wants to reside in the perfect love of Jesus. The love that casts out fear and disables condemnation, the love that covers over a multitude of sins. Mine. Yours. Theirs. Ours.
Your response was born out of this love.
Chills, man. And thank you.
A lot of Scripture got flung around yesterday. Here’s a couple of verses I read today:
2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,4 who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.
and you said yesterday that many wouldn’t agree with you…
I have a couple of folks in my life that speak words to me like this when I’m struggling….I could stand a few more.
Also… look up Tony and Peggy Campolo. Tony and Peggy have mentored me and they have an amazing stance (both different, but both amazing) and I think you will find that there is a large Christian community who will affirm you.
Red Letter Christians is also a great book to go to.
Try the American Baptist Church, as well.
OH so glad this dude has a friend like you!
I like what someone said earlier: sometimes it’s not the point to be ‘right.’ Way to love this man and point him to Jesus!
Right on Los!
To Friend (if they’re so bold as to read this thread)
I realize I may have seemed harsh or insensitive on the previous thread by treating it like an abstraction, and I’m sorry for that. Theres no cookie-cutter response I or anyone else can give.
I’m encouraged by the tone of Los’s response, that you’re a man running after Jesus. Never stop pursuing him! As difficult as it can be let no one’s attempt to define you by anything other than your identity as a redeemed brother in Christ matter. Let Him shape you and transform you daily to become more like Him!
—-
“I know your heart. I know your story.”
And that’s what helps us to love like Jesus and live life past abstraction.
Los, I took 2 years of Greek and I can tell you that all it did was solidify my trust in scripture, and help me to appreciate just how difficult it can be to figure out just what the text is saying. That intelligent people really can come to some pretty major differences and so it still comes down to faith and the convictions of the Holy Spirit.
We have to approach the cross humbly and seek wisdom, we can’t just try and proof-text our way out of this tension in any language. We have to love each other, embrace each other in our hurt, and ask Christ to meet us there, and help us live our lives in pursuit of Him.
Amen
You are an awesome friend.
Truth in love, Truth in grace, is very hard to do, and you do it so well.
Hey Los,
Shalom! – I can’t imagine the inner questioning that went on over posting these emails but I just hope and pray that you will know the presence of Jehovah Shalom.
Thank you so much for sharing both these emails – and for your humble and loving heart as you have done so.
I think you truly nailed the issue in your email – A JOURNEY TOWARDS REDEMPTION.
My wife and I have only recently been discussing this whole issue and I think there are two different issues – I’ll try to explain and please believe me when I try to explain these… I’m not judging or being hateful but trying to understand things and explain how I understand them.
Firstly – there are homosexuals like your friend, who know they are in sin and are on that journey towards redemption. These shouldn’t be judged any more than any other sinner seeking redemption and trying to find their way out of sin. Personally I would say that someone living in a gay relationship, as with anyone living in a non-marital partnership, shouldn’t be in leadership. But if that person is working to manage their desires and instincts and isn’t in a public relationship (ergo a public sin) then there should be no more judgment or restriction on them as there is on any other sinner.
Where I struggle is with the second area and this is where I believe the Church does need to take a stand. That is the area of the proud homosexual who doesn’t see it as a sin – again, this to my understanding is as bad as a leader saying it’s OK to live in a non-marital partnership or to have multiple wives and concubines
This is where I think the Church should stand up and say no – but not in a harsh way… in LOVE and with support and biblical foundation and understanding… working with them to try and help them understand their sin and then releasing them into all that Christ has for us all.
‘Los – I have been totally humbled by your heart in this and I hope that I don’t come across as bigoted or hateful… I really don’t mean to if I have.
Blessings and love to you all
Mike
WooHoo – it ROCKS!
P.S. Just managed to get your EP from itunes UK
I’m going to go hang out on a limb with Andrew Marin on this one and say he’s not not sinning. He’s made a very hard commitment to follow Christ despite his desires, and for that he should be commended.
PS: How can I get this thing to pop up an avatar alongside my posts so I have a slightly-more unified presence here (Between this/twitter/Facebook)? I don’t have a website or anything like that to drop in the link.
I want to hug your face off. That’s a great response. And I love that rather than being judgmental like most of my Christian brothers and sisters that I’ve been dealing with lately, you responded to your friend in a loving, Christian way.
THAT is what Christianity is all about.
I started to read the thread yesterday and I was getting so throughly depressed that I had to stop. I am glad that I waited for your letter to your friend and your response.
Is my sin of gluttony less “heavy” than a sexual sin? maybe, “you” can make the argument for that, have at it.
Is that sexual sin gonna keep someone from living with Jesus for all eternity in heaven?
Nope.
Just might not have a front row seat.
Rats.
I think we’ll all have pretty awesome intimacy with Jesus.. Front row-seats won’t even begin to compare
Carlos, I know there are already like 60 responses, and many of them echoing what I’m about to say… but thank you and I agree with you. And whether or not anyone reads my response way down here I just wanted to say….
I believe that God is a God of redemption that he loves us always thoroughly through and through. I don’t believe that there is now nor has ever been a person who doesn’t struggle with sin, and I do think that God might still have a ministry for your friend it just might be different and more specific. I think the issues of homosexuality and abortion are so over emotionalized in our churches, that we as the body of Christ forget that behind each one of those sins is the broken heart of someone created in God’s image. Someone who desperately needs to be loved on by the body and to know that they belong, and that there is hope and mercy and grace. I know My Jesus, and He is not someone to walk away from a hurting heart… This judgementalism, and condescension, this rating of some sins as being worse than others that are easier to hide is exactly what my generation both Christian and non finds so distasteful about the Church. We should be the first to love the broken, the first to minister to the needy. And yet so often we are the first, and last, and loudest to condemn… It breaks my heart for the body, and it breaks my heart for those suffering, and it breaks my heart for my Jesus, because he is first and foremost and lasting and always unconditionally love.
Tell your friend that I love him because he is made in God’s image, tell him that I believe that God is doing a great work in Him, and although he’s suffering now, that he has not been abandoned or shunned. He is still a prince of the kingdom with all the authority of the spirit, and most of all he is still usable. This is a new chapter in which “God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure -Phil 2:13″ God is working in your friend… I’m sorry for his struggle, I’m sorry that he has a particularly hard sin burden to bear, and I’m sorry that he has been hurt by the church…. But I love him something fierce for what it’s worth, a random blogger from a random place on the internet, loves him something fierce!
a) loved your response. if only we could all live/walk with such grace, love and humility.
b) it’s funny. yesterday’s comments were filled with such hate, bigotry, hypocrisy, plank-eyed accusations. today? all (mostly) love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, compassion. i haven’t taken the time to see if it is from the same who commented yesterday, but thought it was interesting how the tone changed.
good words, sir.
Carlos,
Well said….thanks for responding to him the way Jesus would. Your friend is blessed to have you speaking truth into his life.
This is my first post on here but I thought I might as well jump in!
I have read through all of the posts from yesterday and today and was a little taken back by some comments across the whole spectrum. There are a couple of things that I want to add to the discussion.
1) God gives grace to the humble and opposes the proud. The bible doesn’t say that he gives grace to the right and opposes the wrong. (I am not part of the Ulitimate Reconciliation Movement… don’t read to much into this! I do believe in absolute truth.) I bring this up because a lot of the time, we are more concerned about being right then humble. You can be right theologically, but still be “wrong”. I think this is why the church has rendered herself ineffective in today’s world. We have turned into the “moral police” without humility, compassion, and love. In other words, we have turned into a resounding gong. We must be excellent in humility, compassion and love. Towards EVERYONE!
2) I find it a little troubling that we still identify ourselves by our sin. We are new creations. If someone identifies themselves as an Adulterer, they are identifying themselves by their sin. (I am writing this from the assumption that you believe homosexuality is a sin, since the initial letter that was written to Carlos from his friend seems to agree that it is sin, just the same as gluttony is a sin.) Jesus has called us OUT of sin. I disagree when you (Carlos) say “I am a lusting man that is on a journey towards redemption”. It sounds very nice, but I believe that it romanticizes sin. We are new creations! We are no longer liars, cheats, adulterers, and pornographers. That is what Jesus saved us from! I think it is dangerous to identify ourselves as something that he has saved us out of. That doesn’t mean that we no longer are tempted, and even fall, but we are now identified with Christ! This is awesome news of God’s redemption! The only reason I say this is I think it is dangerous to say “As a gay man called to lead people to Jesus…”. If God has redeemed your friend, He (God) no longer sees him as gay, but as a child of God. I would say to your friend, “As a child of God called to lead people to Jesus…” that is who he is through the blood of Jesus! His sin is gone! We also have a responsibility to live rightly before God, and we all screw up… but we repent and turn from our sin. If we live in a lifestyle of sin, then we haven’t truly repented, and we need God to break our hearts over our sin. Also, I believe that we are not on a journey of redemption. God has redeemed us. Period. We are redeemed. We are on a journey of being transformed more into his likeness, but we are redeemed!
3) Thank you Carlos for the loving response to your friend. Thank you for challenging me as a worship leader and for being open and honest about your walk with God. I appreciate that and it is refreshing! Also, thank your friend for allowing you to use his letter. I know that it has probably been tough seeing some of the responses especially during this hard time but I pray that he will know the love of God more than anything else.
So, that was a lot longer than I intended, but I hope it helps. Feel free to disagree, because I know I only see in part.
I really hope this comes across in love… that is my heart…
Long time reader, first time commenter.
I’m close with a person in a similar position – deciding whether or not to join the Church (Catholic) while still working through her teachings on homosexuality. So, I’ve been thinking about this subject quite a bit lately.
I think, Los, that what you’ve done with your friend is a great example of Christ’s love. Sin is sin and, while we are the bride of Christ and called to holiness, we all are in the midst of struggles.
I am a liar, but I despise my lies. I am quick to anger, but I despise the outbursts. I am a child of God, but I stumble.
The only thing I have to add is that I’m worried when people say, “the point isn’t always to be right”. What you said, Los, is RIGHT. Responding with grace to a person who earnestly desires to be conformed to Christ is right. Responding with harsh truths to someone who is living in sin is also right.
Grace is not the enemy of truth, nor truth the enemy of grace.
We are light AND salt. We give hope to the weary that on the road with us, and we speak with conviction against those who have turned back toward their lives in the dead flesh.
- A Catholic Reader
I agree. But I think you misunderstood my meaning.
I just meant that sometimes people are more interested in winning an argument (thus being “right”) than in helping.
But…you’re right.
I’m sorry your friend confessed a sin that he was struggling with and got fired. Maybe they should have come along side him and helped him. But this is my struggle, is it wise (for that person and for the church) to put someone in pastoral leadership who is struggling with homosexuality, pornography, adultery, etc.? Because whether we like to admit it or not, if they were to fall in a big way, it would have an impact on so many other people. I don’t have all the answers to those questions. Because people’s sin effects so many others. I guess if that person set themselves up with strict accountability then the position of pastoral leadership could still be kept. I’m truly sorry for your friend. He did the right thing by confessing his sin struggle.
BTW- I LOVED your answer. Perfectly said
Preach it Brother Carlos!
Wow. wow. wow. and wow. It took me like 2 hours to sift through all the comments from yesterday. but wow. I’m glad I did.I agree with alot of people on here that think there would be a difference between your friend ‘living’ in and with the sin, and having the thoughts/desires/struggle with the sin. But I’m still lost on if that opinion is good or not.
I’m judgemental. I’m hateful. I lust. I’m selfish. I’m ruthless.
But aren’t we all? Isn’t what we do about it, the important part. Isn’t that why Jesus came to save us? To save us from our sins? The fact that your friend admits that it’s something that he struggles with, implies that he knows it doesn’t find favor in God’s eyes. Who the heck are we to judge his struggle against that of another? Who’s to say what’s better?
Some of the greatest sermon’s I ever heard, came from a man that stood outside the church to greet his congregation, while smoking a half a pack of cig’s… But did that make his sermons any less powerful? The day his sermon was about keeping what belongs to God holy, was he talking as a hypocrite? No way! He openly talked about his need/want/desire to quit. He openly said that he ’struggled’ with addiction. He said it was an on going conversation he has with God, everyday. Isn’t that what matters? Isn’t that the example we should set for others when we sin? That we give it up to God?
While I don’t think that anyone here on earth has the right to decipher what sins are more heinous than others, I do think it’s such an awesome testiment, and witness to others, to watch how someone uses their struggles in life to show that God gave us the gift of Jesus dying on the cross, so that we may be saved by God’s grace. Even though your friend may have lost his position in the church, he hasn’t lost his ministry. He will take that with him where ever he goes. And hundreds and hundreds of people have now had the opportunity to read these thoughts and comments on this blog. That’s ministry. His, and Yours Carlos. Way too cool.
This is honestly the first time I have read your site, and what a time to jump into the conversation.
I only halfway read the comments to yesterday’s post as they got pretty visous pretty fast.
I love the response you gave. It was really beautiful.
I also happen to believe that homosexuality is NOT a sin. God doesn’t ask gay people to deny who they are as his creations anymore than he ask straight people to do so. I believe he calls us to be a part of loving relationships and to take those relationships (whatever they look like) very seriously.
I have friends who are ministers and who are gay. I have friends who have been kicked out of ministry for being gay. I have found that they understand the Grace and love of God in a far deeper way that I could ever imagine.
So Carolos, I would say to your friend that the way he was treated sucks. It really really sucks, but the God’s grace is bigger than any one sucky situation.
Your letter back to your friend was beautiful Los! It was a Jesus response. I didn’t comment on the original post for the same reasons you said. After reading a bunch of the comments, I felt disheartened and I didn’t feel smart enough…
Thanks for sharing all that personal stuff with us.
Several weeks ago Pete Wilson had a post that has stuck with me. And I’m horrible at remembering quotes!
“We want to be loved,
We want to be accepted,
We want to matter”
And above Derek “Being smart doesn’t make you holy, but it can make you sound that way. And that’s dangerous.” How can we NOT love everyone. We all have our struggles. Looking for that thing that will make me accepted. For who I am and for who I want to be. That validation that gives me the faith to go on. Step by step. Hand in hand with all my brothers & sisters. Race doesn’t matter. Size doesn’t matter. Sexual orientation doesn’t matter. Being an idiot doesn’t matter. Being a theological scholar doesn’t matter.
I also loved the comment (but didn’t want to go up 70 responses) that said something about putting my name where the ***** are. Wow. No matter what. God loves me.
Loved the post today. That is very corageous of you. Thanks for embracing the struggles of everyone instead of running away from a big issue that a lot of people avoid. Anyways thanks for showing love to your friend.
hey Carlos man
prop’s to your response true brotherly love,
love doesn’t equal being perfectly right or theologically water tight just first, second and third love, once you got that down it’s cool to spend 1,2 or 10 years on your theology doc and statement.
my only hesitation is thats a great response but i guess all good leaders know that to be only reactive is to have already lost half the battle.
So whats the proactive re/pre-sponce to this
it’s much easier to be a supporter from the sidelines, championing someone on like cheerleader or being there to help them pick up the pieces. But as leader (someone pro-active in a position of power, with the opportunity to truly serve others, to make change first and foremost rather than react to bad situation) I wonder what championing the ministries of your friends those with similar struggles looks like.
Oh I long for the leaders who share your sentiments not only in hiding but openly. leaders who go beyond resisting the easy option of jettisoning those with messy real life’s but invest in them, trust them, inspire and and give up their platforms for them
For me thats where the real rubber hits the road
thats where the real men are at
and that is definitely something that is absolutely missing in the church today
Awesome words, Carlos!
Much prayer for your friend – keep loving them like Jesus, brother!
I will read, then re-read, then read again before posting any comment. THANK YOU for starting the dialogue here. Swords into plowshares…
I’ve put a lot of thought into my response on this issue. You see, I come from the point of view of someone who has dealt with homosexual thoughts and tendencies, am dealing with those and no longer identifying myself as gay, and have dealt with other sexual sins. I found more acceptance and accountability when it came to porn than I did with the homosexuality. I was very blessed with friends who were the church to me and loved me through my healing process and spoke nothing but truth to me.
It took a long time to find those people and a lot of heartache was found along the way… so much so, that I no longer can look at someone and dismiss them because of their struggle.
Yes, there is healing and acceptance and peace for all in the arms of Jesus. He holds us to a very high standard, but gives us the tools to walk this path of sanctification.
(Honestly, I’m hitting the submit button before I chicken out on posting this.)
Praise God! Sadly I’ve found that to be the case too as I’ve walked toward Christ. He may not give us lots of people to walk with, but he is faithful to equip us to overcome temptation and give us a way of escape! (1Cor 10:13)
That is one of my life verses. The five life verses I have are: 1 Cor 10:13, Zeph 3:16 Psalm 45:11, Romans 8:1 and Isaiah 1:18. All of four of the verses represent different stages of my Christan walk:
* 1 Cor 10:13 to battle the hopelessness that comes with temptation
* Romans 8:1 as a reminder that God is loving and not condeming
* Psalm 45:11 and Zeph 3:16 to remind me of my value to God
* Isaiah 1:18 to remind me that it is ok to wrestle things out with God… and to remind me that if I keep a willing and open heart, His truth will prevail.
Thank you for sharing those others, I needed to hear them right now.
The ’such WERE some of you’ part of 1Cor 6:11 I’m also stoked about, only recently did I put it together..(with the context of the preceding verses) God’s in the business of transforming all our sinful ways, so that none remain.
Our identity is found in Him alone. Not our sinful past, or our present hangups…Just got to remember that sometimes when I get down
You’re welcome. It’s a wonderful thing that we have the scriptures to encourage, exhort, and correct each other.
Love your response bro. If, I can say anything about the gospel, it all stems and is rooted in LOVE. Being raised in a culture, where marrying out of our own race is still considered taboo by many of the older folk (let alone homosexuality–which we (my culture) think is something that other people deal with), I’m thankful for your response. Christ, is first and foremost LOVE, and we need to approach others in that same manner.
wow…. in a good way
When I get the guts to tell someone about my same-sex struggle, I hope they respond with that kind of love and support. Right now I’m terrified of revealing this double life, for fear of what happened to your friend. It’s so hard to wear a mask around my Christian brothers and sisters, but when I hear the jokes and judgment it’s just as hard to feel like I can trust them. That young man has got a good friend for sure. Pray for me if you would – I need to get this off my chest and get some accountablitly. Thanks
Hey matt…you’re not alone in your battles. It may feel like it, but you’re not. There is a freedom that comes when we share and not let that guilt or shame take a hold of our lives. We like to pretend that “true” Christians would never struggle with things like this. I say this because I can relate to you. I’ve been where you are, and I’m still learning, growing, and surrendering it all to the Lord. God sees you’re heart bro..keep trusting in Him. I’ll definitely keep you in prayers.
Matt, when I first told someone about my SSA it was the most terrifying thing I’ve ever done. God saw me through, and he’ll see you through to get the help you need. 1 Cor 10:13 talks about God equipping us with what we need to handle temptation. Praying God shows you the godly brothers you need to surround yourself to help you in your battle.
Los,
As I read your response it was like I heard the stones hitting the ground as they fell from the hands of the self righteous. Modern day example of John 8. Much love.
Matt
great word, LOS. I want to pass on the fact that our struggle is real. Admit it. Deal with Jesus and stay on the journey!
Beautiful. The point is…it’s not the point. Grace wins. Jesus rocks like that. Thanks for speaking Good News.
I thought your response read very nicely, but it wasn’t very meaningful. Here’s why:
1- “You are obviously not meant to work alongside him.” Ummm, duh… the pastor fired him. The question is- is it right that the pastor fired him? You haven’t spoken to the meaningful part of his situation. Say something with substance, like- “It was wrong that you got fired. In my view, it’s not Christlike.” Be real man.
2- “Whether that be porn, lying, overeating, laziness, whatever.” I know you meant well- you’re trying to say “Hey man, we’re all sinners and I feel your pain.” Gluttony, lying, or your struggling with porn as a straight man is completely different because, well, for a bunch of reasons. The social stigma, the embarrassment, the inner conflict of what feels natural versus what’s biblically moral. THIS is what’s at the heart of the struggle. THIS is why it’s alienating to tell a gay man “You’re attraction to men is like my attraction to porn.” No. It’s not. You even say “You admit that it is a struggle. I admit that when a hot chick walks by I don’t always bounce my eyes. I try. But I fail.” Do you really think you can empathize with a Christian wrestling with a same-sex-attraction? No dude, you can’t. Trying to tell someone you can is like being at a funeral and telling the widow “Yeah, I know it’s rough. I remember when my dog died last year.”
3- “Love the crap out of your pastor. Love him till it hurts.” Love your enemies, turn the other cheek, etc. In the mean time, this guy wants to know if his pastor is in the right or not. If the pastor isn’t right in firing him, then perhaps your friend and the rest of the “flock” shouldn’t listen to the guy. Maybe he shouldn’t be a pastor?
Anyway, this whole issue seems to come down to: Do Christians think that same-sex attractions are sinful in and of themselves? Do gay people need to be cured of this desire? Can you be a pastor or a follower of Jesus and still have a same-sex-attraction? Is there a place of him in the church? Is there a place for him there… as a leader. SHOULD there be?
Isn’t that what he’s asking? Isn’t that what all gay people are asking the church? And yet every time someone asks, they’re met with this type of non-answer: “Hate the sin, love the sinner.” No wonder Pop-Christianity is slipping deeper into sub-culture and further away from being a relevant, compelling force in the US and the world. Our world is looking for meaningful answers, not WWJD bracelets, NOTW bumper stickers, and Christian radio.
ooh I sorta broke off in a rant there at the very end. Damnit. My bad.
I somewhat agree. Though I think it is great that you didn’t beat the guy over the head with your interpretation of scripture (hey, it’s easier to refrain when the person is a friend or family member). We dance around the issue and throw grace with a side of love (which is fantastic. Don’t get me wrong). We don’t answer the real questions. Is there a place for him behind the pulpit? The answer is “YES!” Crucify me if you will, but I think that people who don’t fit the khaki trouser/plaid polo dress-code have far more heart for people than those who live by by avoiding their classification lists of sin–they’re preoccupied with perfection. Over all, I commend you for saying nothing you’d likely regret later. You answered with trepidation–a good quality in a minister of the Gospel.
I just wanted to post and ask a question. All sin are they =. I think they are. Some say no and here is why I say yes, all sins lead to death and that death was paid by a man on a cross, so don’t that make all sins =.
a most excellent post