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	<title>Comments on: If A Fat Man Can Lead A Church&#8230;My Reply</title>
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	<link>http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2010/03/if-a-fat-man-can-lead-a-church-my-reply/</link>
	<description>Carlos Whittaker&#039;s Weblog</description>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2010/03/if-a-fat-man-can-lead-a-church-my-reply/#comment-510450</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:32:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/?p=9649#comment-510450</guid>
		<description>&quot;God’s standard for those called out to lead is purity, fidelity, and humility.&quot;  Humility, Ha!  How many &quot;church leaders&quot;, deacons, and pastors do you know who are anything but humble?  I&#039;ve known several who are arrogant, self centered and mostly concerned with protecting their turf and overseeing their little kingdoms.  Humble, my foot.  And these same ones presume to call out somebody for perceived sin?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;God’s standard for those called out to lead is purity, fidelity, and humility.&#8221;  Humility, Ha!  How many &#8220;church leaders&#8221;, deacons, and pastors do you know who are anything but humble?  I&#8217;ve known several who are arrogant, self centered and mostly concerned with protecting their turf and overseeing their little kingdoms.  Humble, my foot.  And these same ones presume to call out somebody for perceived sin?</p>
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		<title>By: Randy</title>
		<link>http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2010/03/if-a-fat-man-can-lead-a-church-my-reply/#comment-353266</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/?p=9649#comment-353266</guid>
		<description>a most excellent post</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a most excellent post</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2010/03/if-a-fat-man-can-lead-a-church-my-reply/#comment-351068</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 07:00:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/?p=9649#comment-351068</guid>
		<description>I just wanted to post and ask a question. All sin are they =. I think they are. Some say no and here is why I say yes, all sins lead to death and that death was paid by a man on a cross, so don&#039;t that make all sins =.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just wanted to post and ask a question. All sin are they =. I think they are. Some say no and here is why I say yes, all sins lead to death and that death was paid by a man on a cross, so don&#8217;t that make all sins =.</p>
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		<title>By: Michaelia</title>
		<link>http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2010/03/if-a-fat-man-can-lead-a-church-my-reply/#comment-351044</link>
		<dc:creator>Michaelia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 06:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/?p=9649#comment-351044</guid>
		<description>I somewhat agree. Though I think it is great that you didn&#039;t beat the guy over the head with your interpretation of scripture (hey, it&#039;s easier to refrain when the person is a friend or family member). We dance around the issue and throw grace with a side of love (which is fantastic. Don&#039;t get me wrong). We don&#039;t answer the real questions. Is there a place for him behind the pulpit? The answer is &quot;YES!&quot; Crucify me if you will, but I think that people who don&#039;t fit the khaki trouser/plaid polo dress-code have far more heart for people than those who live by by avoiding their classification lists of sin--they&#039;re preoccupied with perfection. Over all, I commend you for saying nothing you&#039;d likely regret later. You answered with trepidation--a good quality in a minister of the Gospel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I somewhat agree. Though I think it is great that you didn&#8217;t beat the guy over the head with your interpretation of scripture (hey, it&#8217;s easier to refrain when the person is a friend or family member). We dance around the issue and throw grace with a side of love (which is fantastic. Don&#8217;t get me wrong). We don&#8217;t answer the real questions. Is there a place for him behind the pulpit? The answer is &#8220;YES!&#8221; Crucify me if you will, but I think that people who don&#8217;t fit the khaki trouser/plaid polo dress-code have far more heart for people than those who live by by avoiding their classification lists of sin&#8211;they&#8217;re preoccupied with perfection. Over all, I commend you for saying nothing you&#8217;d likely regret later. You answered with trepidation&#8211;a good quality in a minister of the Gospel.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2010/03/if-a-fat-man-can-lead-a-church-my-reply/#comment-350880</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Mar 2010 21:39:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/?p=9649#comment-350880</guid>
		<description>ooh I sorta broke off in a rant there at the very end. Damnit. My bad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ooh I sorta broke off in a rant there at the very end. Damnit. My bad.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2010/03/if-a-fat-man-can-lead-a-church-my-reply/#comment-350877</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Mar 2010 21:34:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/?p=9649#comment-350877</guid>
		<description>I thought your response read very nicely, but it wasn&#039;t very meaningful. Here&#039;s why:

1- &quot;You are obviously not meant to work alongside him.&quot; Ummm, duh... the pastor fired him. The question is- is it right that the pastor fired him? You haven&#039;t spoken to the meaningful part of his situation. Say something with substance, like- &quot;It was wrong that you got fired. In my view, it&#039;s not Christlike.&quot; Be real man. 

2- &quot;Whether that be porn, lying, overeating, laziness, whatever.&quot; I know you meant well- you&#039;re trying to say &quot;Hey man, we&#039;re all sinners and I feel your pain.&quot; Gluttony, lying, or your struggling with porn as a straight man is completely different because, well, for a bunch of reasons. The social stigma, the embarrassment, the inner conflict of what feels natural versus what&#039;s biblically moral. THIS is what&#039;s at the heart of the struggle. THIS is why it&#039;s alienating to tell a gay man &quot;You&#039;re attraction to men is like my attraction to porn.&quot; No. It&#039;s not. You even say &quot;You admit that it is a struggle. I admit that when a hot chick walks by I don’t always bounce my eyes. I try. But I fail.&quot; Do you really think you can empathize with a Christian wrestling with a same-sex-attraction? No dude, you can&#039;t. Trying to tell someone you can is like being at a funeral and telling the widow &quot;Yeah, I know it&#039;s rough. I remember when my dog died last year.&quot;

3- &quot;Love the crap out of your pastor. Love him till it hurts.&quot; Love your enemies, turn the other cheek, etc. In the mean time, this guy wants to know if his pastor is in the right or not. If the pastor isn&#039;t right in firing him, then perhaps your friend and the rest of the &quot;flock&quot; shouldn&#039;t listen to the guy. Maybe he shouldn&#039;t be a pastor? 

Anyway, this whole issue seems to come down to: Do Christians think that same-sex attractions are sinful in and of themselves? Do gay people need to be cured of this desire? Can you be a pastor or a follower of Jesus and still have a same-sex-attraction? Is there a place of him in the church? Is there a place for him there... as a leader. SHOULD there be?


Isn&#039;t that what he&#039;s asking? Isn&#039;t that what all gay people are asking the church? And yet every time someone asks, they&#039;re met with this type of non-answer: &quot;Hate the sin, love the sinner.&quot; No wonder Pop-Christianity is slipping deeper into sub-culture and further away from being a relevant, compelling force in the US and the world. Our world is looking for meaningful answers, not WWJD bracelets, NOTW bumper stickers, and Christian radio.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought your response read very nicely, but it wasn&#8217;t very meaningful. Here&#8217;s why:</p>
<p>1- &#8220;You are obviously not meant to work alongside him.&#8221; Ummm, duh&#8230; the pastor fired him. The question is- is it right that the pastor fired him? You haven&#8217;t spoken to the meaningful part of his situation. Say something with substance, like- &#8220;It was wrong that you got fired. In my view, it&#8217;s not Christlike.&#8221; Be real man. </p>
<p>2- &#8220;Whether that be porn, lying, overeating, laziness, whatever.&#8221; I know you meant well- you&#8217;re trying to say &#8220;Hey man, we&#8217;re all sinners and I feel your pain.&#8221; Gluttony, lying, or your struggling with porn as a straight man is completely different because, well, for a bunch of reasons. The social stigma, the embarrassment, the inner conflict of what feels natural versus what&#8217;s biblically moral. THIS is what&#8217;s at the heart of the struggle. THIS is why it&#8217;s alienating to tell a gay man &#8220;You&#8217;re attraction to men is like my attraction to porn.&#8221; No. It&#8217;s not. You even say &#8220;You admit that it is a struggle. I admit that when a hot chick walks by I don’t always bounce my eyes. I try. But I fail.&#8221; Do you really think you can empathize with a Christian wrestling with a same-sex-attraction? No dude, you can&#8217;t. Trying to tell someone you can is like being at a funeral and telling the widow &#8220;Yeah, I know it&#8217;s rough. I remember when my dog died last year.&#8221;</p>
<p>3- &#8220;Love the crap out of your pastor. Love him till it hurts.&#8221; Love your enemies, turn the other cheek, etc. In the mean time, this guy wants to know if his pastor is in the right or not. If the pastor isn&#8217;t right in firing him, then perhaps your friend and the rest of the &#8220;flock&#8221; shouldn&#8217;t listen to the guy. Maybe he shouldn&#8217;t be a pastor? </p>
<p>Anyway, this whole issue seems to come down to: Do Christians think that same-sex attractions are sinful in and of themselves? Do gay people need to be cured of this desire? Can you be a pastor or a follower of Jesus and still have a same-sex-attraction? Is there a place of him in the church? Is there a place for him there&#8230; as a leader. SHOULD there be?</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t that what he&#8217;s asking? Isn&#8217;t that what all gay people are asking the church? And yet every time someone asks, they&#8217;re met with this type of non-answer: &#8220;Hate the sin, love the sinner.&#8221; No wonder Pop-Christianity is slipping deeper into sub-culture and further away from being a relevant, compelling force in the US and the world. Our world is looking for meaningful answers, not WWJD bracelets, NOTW bumper stickers, and Christian radio.</p>
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		<title>By: Dawn Bryant (@simplydawnb)</title>
		<link>http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2010/03/if-a-fat-man-can-lead-a-church-my-reply/#comment-350357</link>
		<dc:creator>Dawn Bryant (@simplydawnb)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Mar 2010 02:07:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/?p=9649#comment-350357</guid>
		<description>Beautiful. The point is...it&#039;s not the point. Grace wins. Jesus rocks like that. Thanks for speaking Good News.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beautiful. The point is&#8230;it&#8217;s not the point. Grace wins. Jesus rocks like that. Thanks for speaking Good News.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2010/03/if-a-fat-man-can-lead-a-church-my-reply/#comment-350131</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 19:26:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Robert isnt judging this pastor, he is using the counsel of the Word of God to make a clear determination if he has disqualified himself from ministering to the body of Christ.

 If this pastor is engaging in homosexual activity, he needs to remove himself from leadership position.

Jesus made it very clear that those who love Him obey His Word. James, Titus, 1st Timothy speak of the qualifications of the elders and exhort not to have many teachers because of the higher accountability church leaders take on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert isnt judging this pastor, he is using the counsel of the Word of God to make a clear determination if he has disqualified himself from ministering to the body of Christ.</p>
<p> If this pastor is engaging in homosexual activity, he needs to remove himself from leadership position.</p>
<p>Jesus made it very clear that those who love Him obey His Word. James, Titus, 1st Timothy speak of the qualifications of the elders and exhort not to have many teachers because of the higher accountability church leaders take on.</p>
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		<title>By: @michaelharrison</title>
		<link>http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2010/03/if-a-fat-man-can-lead-a-church-my-reply/#comment-349993</link>
		<dc:creator>@michaelharrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 14:57:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/?p=9649#comment-349993</guid>
		<description>great word, LOS.  I want to pass on the fact that our struggle is real.  Admit it. Deal with Jesus and stay on the journey!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>great word, LOS.  I want to pass on the fact that our struggle is real.  Admit it. Deal with Jesus and stay on the journey!</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2010/03/if-a-fat-man-can-lead-a-church-my-reply/#comment-349983</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 14:40:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/?p=9649#comment-349983</guid>
		<description>Robert,

I struggle with grasping the difference in weight of sins. I know that sexual sin bears a heavier weight than other sins, but what defines sexual sin? Is just the thought of something sexual a sexual sin? If so then we are all as leaders in a big mess of trouble. 

I want to pose this question to you. If a man struggles with a homosexual thought in his mind where sin comes from, but does not act on that natural sin impulse has he not taken the way out that God provided for him? 

Peter when asked three times if he was with Jesus... Denied Him! Yet, for lacking integrity in the moment he led the early church. This man has not denied Jesus, but simply reached out to someone who as a leader should embody the same desire of Jesus - to help the hurting. By helping I don&#039;t mean throwing a man out of the ministry because he struggles with a sin and is in need of accountability and mentorship to get through his feelings, and for that he was turned away and not pulled in closer. 

I love this discussion and Robert thank you for your post. I agree with you that the leaders of the church are held more accountable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert,</p>
<p>I struggle with grasping the difference in weight of sins. I know that sexual sin bears a heavier weight than other sins, but what defines sexual sin? Is just the thought of something sexual a sexual sin? If so then we are all as leaders in a big mess of trouble. </p>
<p>I want to pose this question to you. If a man struggles with a homosexual thought in his mind where sin comes from, but does not act on that natural sin impulse has he not taken the way out that God provided for him? </p>
<p>Peter when asked three times if he was with Jesus&#8230; Denied Him! Yet, for lacking integrity in the moment he led the early church. This man has not denied Jesus, but simply reached out to someone who as a leader should embody the same desire of Jesus &#8211; to help the hurting. By helping I don&#8217;t mean throwing a man out of the ministry because he struggles with a sin and is in need of accountability and mentorship to get through his feelings, and for that he was turned away and not pulled in closer. </p>
<p>I love this discussion and Robert thank you for your post. I agree with you that the leaders of the church are held more accountable.</p>
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