The Professional Professional Church Person Hater
Do you say things like “That church and it’s leader is an inch deep and a mile wide”?
Do you anonymously post on church leader blogs saying how full of themselves they are?
Do you say things like “Where’s the conference I can go to that will help me choose the conference I will go to?”
Do you chat about how church leaders with great production are focused more on providing a show than providing Jesus while you secretly wish you had the money for one moving light?
Do you talk smack about other church leaders period?
Do you make fun of all the affliction shirt and 7 for all mankind wearing man bag sporting pastors who attend Catalyst while your v-neck and rosary are actually just as outdated?
Do you rip on Christian bloggers for using their network to market their product while you bow at the feet of Seth Godin for doing the same thing?
Do you hate on Crowder for taking “sloppy wet kiss” out while you censor yourself for your audience everyday?
If you answered yes to a few of these then you are well on your way to becoming a “Professional Professional Church Person Hater”
Look. We are all human.
We all fall short.
But hopefully this post and the post below will help us see the line a little clearer and stop acting like the way God made “us” is any better than the way God made “them”
Because we all suck and are in need of Jesus and a professional counselor anyway.
You’re Welcome…
Los
RAIN IT DOWN
AWESOME….I so agree!!!!
It’s Friday dude, do you think that you could get off my toes? Those Toms are beginning to hurt.
hahahaha
AMEN BROTHER!!
I can only preach with my fingers
‘Do you hate on Crowder for taking “sloppy wet kiss out” while you censor yourself for your audience everyday?’
WOW! I honestly have been guilty of that one.
I would never hate anything crowder does.
Maybe I am a Professional Crowder Lover
not that i disagree, but where do we draw the line between jealous and/or malicious criticism and genuine questioning of motives and methods?
That’s not disagreeing at all.
I don’t quite think I get what you are asking though. Dumb it down for me.
I believe it is not ours, but the Word of God’s job to both question and discern the intents of the heart.
38″Teacher,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
39″Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us.
SERIOUSLY. I come in contact more than I want with Christian leaders who will label anyone who disagrees with anything they do or say as a hater. God calls us to be encouraging – even supportive, but not yes men. Questioning and holding leaders accountable is often not rooted in disdain for a church (small c) leader, but is often out of concern for the Church (big C).
So… I won’t be able to read anymore on your blog today because my heart and mind are currently on overload thinking about this and the previous post. ;o)
Thank you for the incredibly thought provoking, gut checking posts today.
The questioning of motives is the LINE. We can and should debate methods, but to judge motives is just mean. That, I believe is the core issue here and in most of our churches.
I mean, I agree to an extent. But what does one do when your preacher says, from the front, that he wants our church to *be* an inch deep and a mile wide?
Chris
Well…this is what I would process…
Most people would drown in that inch.
“Most people would drown in that inch.”
Man, so true. That is why I want to do justly, desperately love mercy, and walk humbly with God. I don’t want to be concerned with figuring out how to be miles wide or deep, I just want to be His. I am so overwhelmed that He is faithful to compete this work until the day of Christ Jesus.
Thanks for reminding us that we are all in need of grace and we are all on the list.
We did “How He Loves” a few weeks ago and I like it better without “sloppy wet kiss”. Something like that could be distracting to people, at least in our congregation. If someone else does it the original way, that’s fine.
A lot of the stuff you list above I don’t understand the attraction to, but if that is how they are reaching people, and Christ is the center of their ministry, I won’t question.
professional… wait— you can get PAID? for hating church leaders? – how exactly does that work? some of us have been doing it for FREE for too long. LOL
brilliant
Be friends with Ken Silva
Interesting…
I’ve been re-reading Mere Christianity today (in the car, via cd) and today’s drive was the chapter titled, “The Great Sin”-which, of course, is about pride. Fitting…
I think the answer to both posts is pride. We all struggle with it, and consequently these things occur.
May God rip every shred of it out of me, ’cause it sucks.
I’m thinking about starting a conference called Jaded for all the church conference speaker haters. Joel Osteen and Rick Warren headlining. We’re going to promote it by protesting at Catalyst.
hahahahahhahahahahha
You could do a whole post on this line right here…
“…and a professional counselor anyway.”
Glad you added that tidbit. Nice post.
Thanks i needed that… Putting others down to puff myself up is way to easy!
You had me at “wishing you had enough money for one moving light!”
I have an Affliction T-shirt thrown in the back of my closet somewhere if you want it…just give me an addy.
Kick ARS!
YOU ARE SO RIGHT HOW COULD = SAUL OR PAUL OF TARSUS = EVER BLOG =WRIGHT LETTERS TO THE CHURCH ON HOW WE SHOULD BEHAVE AND WARN OTHERS OF FOLKS WHO DO NOT LIVE THIS WAY I THINK THE HOLY SPIRIT SHOULD HAVE SAID SOME THING OH YA HE DID AND SAYS IT THREW US TO . AND I BET JESUS WISHED WHEN HE SPOKE TO THE CHURCH FOLK HE COULD AFFORD JUST ONE OF THOSE LIGHTS ? WE SHOULD HOLD EACH OTHER ACCOUNTABLE THANX FOR SHARING HOW STUPID THAT IS ?
Dude. Way to bring it today!
I GUESS IF NONE OF NOSE ANY THING AND EVERY THING IS OK THAN ANY ONE WHO DISAGREES IS WRONG ? HEBREWS 5:14 . YOU SOUND LIKE ABOMA ANY ONE WHO SAYS GOVERNMENT FUNDED ABORTION IS WRONG MUST BE A HATER AND IS JUST BLOGGING TO HATE ? I LOVE YOU .
If you take the shift lock off, your spell check will work….
THANKS FOR CORRECTING ME CORRECT A WISE MAN AND HE WILL THANK YOU CORRECT A FOOL AND HE WILL DESPISE YOU .
Man, this blog sucks and the leader is a total sellout.
Very Well Said! We are all members of this profession from time to time. Would do us all well to remember.
seriously I have seen this… heck I was this years ago… anymore tho… I’m more concerned about me getting my junk right than you getting yours…
I’m determined to have a plank-less face.
You know that nerve, that one we try to hide? Yeah, you just hit it hard!
Thanks!
i like leaders who rock true religion
CORRECT A WISE MAN AND HE WILL THANK YOU CORRECT A FOOL AND HE WILL DESPISE YOU .
we don’t suck.
there’s a cross for that.
**(that was NOT meant to sound like “there’s an app for that.”)
we are new.
we are beautiful.
Yes we are. In a really suck kinda way.
CARLOS IF YOU HATE THE HATERS FOR HATEN THAN YOU ARE THE KING BUT IF YOU LOVE THE HATERS YOU MAY SHOW THEM A GREATER WAY . I LOVE YOU CARLOS .LOVE ALWAYS W.I.N’S , AND CARLOS YOU CAN HATE ME IF YOU WANT TO IT MAY HURT SOME TIMES BUT LIKE JESUS SAID LORD PLEASE FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY NO NOT WHAT THEY DO ARE YOU REFLECTING THIS CARLOS AND IF NO ONE IS RIGHT TO CORRECT ANY ONE THAN WHY WOULD YOU RIGHT THIS BLOG IN CORRECTION AND SAYING YOU ARE A LOOSER IS THE STARTING LINE BEING A WINNER IN CHRIST IS THE RAISE AND VICTORY BE A WINNER IN CHRIST AND GET PAST THE STARTING LINE RUN A GOOD RACE .GO CARLOS , GO CARLOS GOOOOOOOO
dude. caps lock please. this is hurting my eyes so bad.
I know los is da bomb but please no shouting… my dogs sleeping… thanks!
Yes. And when you write that much, punctuation. Please.
My bad. I guess there actually is punctuation in there. I just can’t see it for all the CAPS.
The v-neck and rosary line…awesome.
We wouldnt want to disrupt the celebrity culture in the Christian sub culture that is perpetuated by the never ending conferences that are funded by local church congregations. Oh, and we have to fund “para church” organizations like Catalyst, Leadership Network, etc….
And where do these funds come from? AH, thats right, local church congregations that fund their pastoral staffs to go out to these conferences to learn the latest and greatest method of drawing a crowd and preaching moralistic sermons to keep them. Oh, and lets not forget about learning how to promote your very own sex challenge to get the goats in the door.
Of course, I am a hater. You know that is a very well laid tactic. When you cant sustain any reasonable argument or meaningful discussion with someone of a dissenting view, you label them as a hater or more apt in the church work, Pharisee to demonize and minimize their objections and viewpoints.
Only problem with that tactic within the church is that it is creating an antigonistic relationship between pastors and their congregations. You know the same congregations these conference circuit pastors are supposed to be shepherding instead of trying to make themself famous.
Thomas. Your ip is pretty close to getting the boot.
caps lock bro. Caps lock.
Sam.
All great points.
Except you don’t “know” any of these pastors.
Therefor as much as I could not tell you that you dont love your mother or children, you can’t say that these pastors do not love their local churches and are trying to make themselves famous.
Really well strung words yet without much behind them.
I would suggest that you bring your concerns up to your local pastor if it is bothering you.
Always a good first step…
From a biblical standpoint, who is the pastor/shepherd main priority? Their sheep/congregation or speaking at multiple conferences per year? Maybe, and here is a CRAZY idea, if these same pastors invested the same time they spend on the road with their own congregations, then their sheep would be better equipped for evangelism. Not to mention the time these pastors spend away from their families. a pastor’s call is to his flock first and foremost because he will give account for them. The church should never be used as a means to gain some status of celebrity, sell books, etc. The church’s primary call is to edify and equip the saints for evangelism to the world.
My local pastor does not attend any of the church growth fad conferences out there today. Nor would I attend a church whose staff went to multiple conferences a year because that is bad stewardship of funds given by local congregations.
But I know you benefit from being paid by performing at conferences so you must defend the “establishment” that has been created. Classic self serving conflict of interest….
I actually don’t get paid to perform at any conference.
See what I mean?
Your responses are laced in ignorance.
Facts or much better than guesses.
update that email to discernment2010@hotmail.com and maybe it’ll be a bit clearer.
I KID I KID!
Thanks for your perspective though. It’s always interesting to read.
You know its quite ironic for someone who claims to like to shake up the status quo become a part of the status quo.
SO..just to clarify. When you perform at conferences, you take care of all your own expenses? travel, meals,hotels, etc? You do so out of your love for the Body of Christ?
Seriously, how much time have you wasted on this when you could be doing something constructive?
And you might want to read the apostle Paul’s view on remuneration.
I get paid when I sell merch.
Buy my record…Feed my kids.
And some conferences pay. most dont.
Most speakers and bands get paid by selling their merchandise.
See the lesson your getting?
Dialogue can help ignorance as opposed to straight up bashing.
The conversation looks like it could turn a corner with you but maybe not.
Let’s see…
Let’s play a game.
I want you to tell me 10 amazing things about one of these “fame chasing preachers” you speak about.
10 amazing things…
Let’s see if Sam can do it…
Sam,
I get what you’re saying. But I disagree with you on a couple of points…
First – the pastor’s main priority is not his people. It’s God. Same as everybody else’s. Someone in ministry cannot minister effectively if there isn’t an overflow of God’s presence in their lives. And they can’t get overflow if God isn’t the main priority. I’ve put ministry first in my own life. I used to help lead the praise team, and putting the ministry in front of God ended up poisoning my worship, which in turn was affecting my people, and I can’t be responsible for that.
Second – sending your Pastor to a leadership conference is not a bad thing in my humble opinion. As a matter of fact, my Pastor just recently returned from the first conference he’s been to in years. He had the same viewpoint as you do. His remarks to me upon his return were, “Man, I had no idea how anemic my spirit had become.”
Pastors need rest and refreshing too. They need a chance to be able to sit in the congregation and be ministered to every once in a while. I for one, would not mind if our church paid for him to go to a few more conferences. A refreshed and filled Pastor equals a refreshed and filled flock.
But this is all my opinion and we all know what that’s worth!
Maybe your Pastor is superman or something, I don’t know…but I hope he’s getting what he needs.
Love and peace to you brother…
Oh, I fully agree that pastors do need rest and refreshing as well. My pastor has a network of other pastors where he finds the type of enrichment that you speak about
But what I dont think they need is some church growth conference just designed to promote the latest in church growth fads designed to draw crowds to the church. Spurgeon said it best, “feeding the sheep or amusing the goats.”
Nor do I see why organizations like Catalyst exist and are funded by local church offerings that would be better served being given to missions to reach the lost. Instead the money is given to catalyst to put on an evangelical circus and have false teachers such as Rob Bell speak at these “conferences” Why would you want your pastor to sit under Rob Bell’s teaching?
Welp Sam. That was about as long as you last.
Argue and place your points as long as you wish but don’t start calling out Jesus loving pastors by name and calling them False Teachers.
Thanks for the convo though!!!
If you want to come out of timeout email me loswhit@gmail.com and we can talk!
Love different perspectives around here. Ask around. But not at the expensive of personal attacks.
Thanks man!
Los
So if someone actually comes out and says they don’t believe the Bible to be true and has MANY questionable beliefs as it pertains to what the Bible actually says, and someone here calls them out on it, they can’t post?
Just askin?
They can question. Yup. It wasn’t a question.
Here is a question.
“I would warn my pastor against the teaching of Rob Bell. I don’t think it’s legit.”
Simple changes.
Glad you cleared that up Los. For a second thought this was turning into a “you can’t say anything about anyone” blog. Not quite sure how your suggestion is much different from suggesting that someone is a false teacher, but I’m glad to see that this is not an environment where readers can’t openly question others’ teachings.
Sam,
Perhaps a better way to put this would be. “My pastor doesn’t seek enrichment from conferences.”
That’s fine. It does not mean that they are bad.
Some people need the enrichment that they find there. Some really great pastors do. Many do not find enrichment or challenge from other pastors. Rather, they find burnout, stress, complaining about their own congregations…
Organizations like Catalyst exist, in my opinion and experience, to challenge pastors and laymen alike to think about what they do and why. They exist to share Godly wisdom, to encourage church leaders and pastors to keep pushing forward the Good News. I have never been presented with a “Church Growth Fad” at these events. What I have found is challenge and encouragement from church planters and pastors with much more experience than I possess.
Do I always agree with what is said there? No.
But if I never allow myself to hear something with which I do not agree, I find myself less able to challenge it.
As for Rob Bell, if his teaching is wrong, I would want my pastor to know what the man says. To hear it. So that my pastor can instruct others from experience and not from rumor.
Ah well…we’ve already been through all the Nooma videos so….
I honestly don’t know how Catalyst is funded. I’ve never been to one of their conferences so I can’t really give an informed opinion about what they do.
Alls I know is, if they’re busy building the Kingdom, I got no beef with ‘em.
Amen brother.
I actually like the “sloppy wet kiss” line… we tried thinking of something that would mean the same as “heaven meets earth like a sloppy wet kiss” and couldn’t think of anything as good… its uncomfortable to sing that to our Lord and Savior, but Jesus didn’t come so we could be comfortable!
We are not called to be the Holy Spirit… the Holy Spirit does that well enough! If you think there’s something wrong, do you not have enough faith in God that HE will bring that person/ministry down? I think what Carlos is saying is that its not our job to be the Holy Spirit!
While I did gripe about crowder changing the lyric, unforseen kiss kinda took me there too.
I don’t believe its censorship as much as it is knowing how your people respond to certain thing. Learning how to say the same thing different.
I agree Charlton, its not our job to be the Holy Spirit.
Thomas,
It is clear you have strong beliefs about this post, but keep in mind that Carlos is portraying a pattern of behavior that leads to an act of “hating” rather than careful consideration of motives.
Also good to consider, when the Bible talks about praying it does so with the mindset that you pray in private so others do not look at you and think you are doing it for attention. Likewise, as you mentioned the correction of a fool vs. a wise man, I do not believe a wise man would take a lot of time posting on someone else’ blog how wise they are because they handle correction well. The actions are supposed to speak for themselves.
Have a great day, and God bless
Carlos, thanks for keeping our minds and hearts in check with our actions.
I recently blogged some brief thoughts on why i didnt go to hear Rob Bell speak in Belfast (hardly a conference)
http://supersimbo.com/2010/03/not-going-to-rob-bell/
I have been critical of that scene & the CCM scene but my criticisms have came out of being badly burned over a period of years…..i guess the warning for me, that you highlight, is not to let it become a hatred!
p.s. the CAPS LOCK dude almost caused a stroke!
AMEN. There are some things that I hate unapologetically and boldly … because there are things that Jesus Christ hates unapologetically and boldly. If we truly desire to follow him, we should do so entirely. Instead of promoting an “everybody’s perspective should be given a platform” theology. It’s not Biblical. It’s not right.
Here’s a suggestion…
Don’t read those blogs…
Great point. And steer others away from them as well if you believe they are compromising the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Sure, most won’t consume info from leaders who they deem unworthy of following. But simply encouraging one not to follow those is just a first step. Don’t read those blogs AND be proactive in spreading Biblical truths.
Los, if you are just bent on ticking people off I guess I can’t stop ya..
I will say nice counter article… I am a lover of peace… and it really strains me when I have to deal with people that begin the whole comparative analysis… I think the other thing that really causes me frustration is that a lot of these issues cause us to lose sight of loving the Church… (The actual people ya know?)
“Where’s the conference I can go to that will help me choose the conference I will go to?”
Face it. There truth to that statement. Everyone and their grandma hosts a conference or has written a book on leadership, media, pastors, worship, children’s, student, parking ministry, coffee, etc…
Love the church. Love the blog. Hate Christian consumerism.
Ryan.
You act like this is a new thing.
Resources.
I would argue that “everyone” who has written a book or hosted a conference felt the Lord prompting them to.
I wouldn’t argue against His prompting.
And Christian consumerism for the sake of consumerism sucks.
Books written out of the prompting of the Holy Spirit…may suck…but should always be written.
But I’m assuming you agree so I’m probably preaching to the choir.
the problem with Christian consumerism is rarely about the product being consumed but mostly about the attitude of the consumer towards the things they consume…
Is it getting hot in here, or is it just me? Carlos, It’s cool how you allow differing view points here. Most people won’t do that. I like see where others are coming from.
darnit…i cant hate on Crowder anymore for “unforseen”? Curse you, los. I thought we were tight.
Preach on.
Hmmm…
I wonder what you would have called “Martin Luther” when he nailed the 95 Thesis to the door of the chapel?
I wonder what you would have called “Paul” when he talked about “enemies of the cross” (Philippians 3:18)?
I wonder what you would have said about “Jesus” when he threw down in the temple for people “buying and selling” merchandise in the temple (Matthew 21)?
I’m all for being positive and building people up but never at the cost of discernment and the call to judge ministries and teachers by their fruit and teachings.
Well. None of those have anything to do with a blog.
So…
Since blogging didn’t exist in those days, that doesn’t make a very convincing response. These were Christians publicly calling the greater Church and its teachings ‘on the carpet’ in light of a Biblical standard of Truth.
If Martin Luther had posted the 95 Thesis on a blog, would it have made them any less of a valid criticism of the Roman Catholic Church of that era?
Comparing Martin Luther with an anonymous blogger/commenter is interesting…
Seems like most of the people that get attacked, mostly listen to criticism from those that they “know” love them.
I’ve never seen anyone change their ways by reading a blog critical of them.
There are some of us who have been brought to the true gospel, to true salvation in Christ’s work on the Cross, through the reading of viewpoints critical of popular ‘Christian’ speakers and writers.
Perhaps we should consider the possibility that these criticisms might allow deeper theological discussion for us lay-folk trying to make sense of all the Christian teaching that is out there today.
If you’ve ever written an entire blog about the things people do wrong that you feel they have no business doing… You might be a hater… LOL
But just because we all fall short… is that any reason not to hold church leaders and pastors to a higher standard; that standard being the BIBLICAL standard for what a Pastor should be? Titus 2:1 “You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.”
What I mean is this… as teacher, I shouldn’t get away with teaching 2+2=6 in the classroom. My fellow teachers should correct that mistake. My students (those who know better) should correct my mistake. If I am not doing what I am supposed to, or teaching what I myself am instructed to teach from my boss, I MUST be rebuked and called to change my ways. That’s not hateful… its the most Loving thing we can do for our fellow teachers and leaders in Christianity – to hold one another lovingly accountable to the Word. This doesn’t mean we let false teaching and outrageous behavior slide because “we’re not perfect.” Christ, in HIS perfection, set a standard for what is to be taught, what the Bible means in light of his death and resurrection, and what Christians are to handle themselves, teach, and believe in our churches. We must criticize using HIS standards… not our own.
I totally agree with what you are saying. But one thing (and you’ll probably agree with it). In order to teach, you have to listen first. Everyone who has ever become a teacher, including myself, has always been taught. I listened to the teachers that listened to me. There is a way to rebuke without appearing domineering and belligerent. You said, “to hold one another lovingly accountable to the Word.” Some of the things on this blog kind of make me want to cry because they are the antithesis of that. Some people are not willing to listen to anyone.
I hear so many people talk about false teaching, but I’ve followed Rob Bell for awhile and he obviously loves Jesus, or he wouldn’t be preaching salvation through Jesus. I just have to keep Paul’s words in Philippians 1:15-18. Whatever the motives are of people preaching, Jesus is being preached, and if it brings more into the Kingdom, then…what do you do?
I agree that those who teach must first listen (or learn really)… but what are we listening to? Our hearts? Our peers? OR, are we listening to Christ and what he says about what his life and death were all about?!?! And when I say we must hold one another lovingly accountable to that Word, I mean that we should be following the Biblical example of what the Apostles did when they rebuked false teachers… they did not sugar coat things, and they did not engage in ‘conversation.’ They defended the TRUE Gospel, and called those who pandered teachings to the contrary to repent of these false messages!
As for Rob Bell, I know that he preaches about Jesus… but the Jesus he preaches about is NOT the same Jesus who reveals Himself to us in the scriptures. Bell preaches about a Jesus that you can get closer to by being spiritual and by working towards social justice. The Jesus of the Gospel brings us into his own simply though HIS work on the Cross – in SPITE of everything I do or have done! What do we do about this? Well, we continue to point out to Bell that his teachings are contrary to Christ’s own teachings, and pray for his repentance. We must ALSO warn others that his message that you’ve got to be spiritual to earn your salvation isn’t true, and shift the focus to the real message of the Gospel: Christ Crucified for the forgiveness of our sins.
Having found myself all over the “Professional Church Person” list, I was also expecting to be everything on this list too.
Surprisingly, I’m not as much of a hater as I thought.
Good to know
I couldn’t answer yes to most of those because I didn’t understand them. Is this post in code? What exactly is a “7 for all mankind wearing man bag”?
Slight tangent here, but I’ve had this thought rolling around in my head:
I wonder how much Jesus appreciates our efforts to call each other on the carpet. Like the Holy Spirit needs help or something.
Saying “I love Jesus, but think the church (or certain churches) suck,” is kind of like saying, “Hey Jesus, you’re cool, but your wife’s a whore man.”
Like Tony Campollo said, “The church is a whore, but she’s my mother.” Quit kicking your mom when she’s down. Help her up!
Thanks Los, for helping us help her up. Sometimes that means tough love with tough words, but more often, I think it means encouragement.