Welcome To Gay And Lesbian Church Leader Week At Ragamuffin Soul
I thought the title catchy…
And the weeks almost over…
So bear with me.
The conversation is too important to stop now.
Meet my friend Andrew.
Andrew Marin is the President and Founder of The Marin Foundation (www.themarinfoundation.org), a non-profit organization that seeks to build bridges between the gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender (GLBT) and religious communities.
He wrote an award winning book called Love is an Orientation: Elevating the Conversation with the Gay Community.
His life changed forever when his three best friends came out to him in three consecutive months and he was compelled to understand how he could reconcile his friends to his faith.
So his wife and him moved to Boystown, a predominantly GLBT community in Chicago to jump into the conversation feet first.
I asked Andrew to jump into the conversation and he recorded this video for your discussion.
Andrew will be bouncing around the comment section interacting with you guys so feel free to ask him anything you are interested in!!!
Talk…
Los
IMPORTANT!!!
I NEVER moderate the comments here at RS, But since this is SO touchy…
I’m a gonna be watching you guys like white on rice.
I don’t even agree 100% with EVERYTHING Andrew is saying, but I do agree with what he is doing.
And hopefully you don’t agree with EVERYTHING I say on this blog.
Meekness wins…
Disagree all day and night.
But disagree like Christ would…
In love…
Or poof…
Out ya go!
Thanks.
Los
RAIN IT DOWN
Bringing in the big guns
Yes. We need to talk about this junk. Miss ya man
A difficult topic deserves a lengthy answer. I hope I can help.
I would encourage people who are struggling with temptation of homosexual desires to be careful not to define themselves as “homosexual.” Don’t say, “I am gay,” or “I am a homosexual.” Say, rather, “I struggle with homosexual desires.” That’s a very small—and huge—distinction.
Don’t ever let any man tell you he is a homosexual. Always correct his vocabulary, because in Christ Jesus that is not who you are. In Christ Jesus I am a new creature.
A new creature in Christ, even though people still struggle with the sins of impatience, lust, and pride, Christians who struggle with homosexual desires are not homosexuals. In Christ they are new creatures who struggle with the temptations of homosexuality. And I just want to come along side them and say, “Get that as your paradigm, and let’s struggle together in chastity and in purity until we’re dead.”
I’m willing to fight with people to the bitter end to help them war against their sin, just like I would like you to help me war against my sin. But if you make peace with your sin and you are acting as a gay man then you’re doing what Romans 6 says you can’t do as a Christian. And therefore you’re acting as a non-Christian, and you’re claiming to be a Christian. And the Bible says that I’m not supposed to have anything to do with you, not even to eat with you. And so our friendship is going to have to be broken if you go on like this.
And that holy ostracism is meant to have a convicting effect. It’s not meant to send them to hell. It’s meant to win them back.
A homosexual orientation is a result of the fall of humanity into a sinful condition that pervades every person. Whatever biological or familial roots of homosexuality may be discovered, we do not believe that these would sanction or excuse homosexual behavior, though they would deepen our compassion and patience for those who are struggling to be free from sexual temptations.
This freedom is attained through a process which includes recognizing homosexual behavior as sin, renouncing the practice of homosexual behavior, rediscovering healthy, non-erotic friendships with people of the same sex, embracing a moral sexual lifestyle, and in the age to come, rising from the dead with a new body free from every sinful impulse. This process parallels the similar process of sanctification needed in dealing with heterosexual temptations as well. We believe that this freedom comes through faith in Jesus Christ, by the power of his Spirit.
Christian churches should reach out in love and truth to minister to people touched by homosexuality, and that those who contend Biblically against their own sexual temptation should be patiently assisted in their battle, not ostracized or disdained.
HOWEVER, the more prominent a leadership role or modeling role a person holds in a church, the higher will be the expectations for God’s ideal of sexual obedience and wholeness.
Amen Ben. Very well-said.
WOW…what he said! Great post.
Becoming a new creature in Christ is different for each person. I was raised to be heterosexual just as virtually every LGBT person was raised to be heteronormative. It isn’t until we discover that this sexual or gender expression is not a good fit for us that we accept that God created us just the way we are. You can quote scripture all you want, but it is the “personal relationship with Jesus Christ” that makes a difference in my life. I am a lesbian and a Christian — just as I am, without one plea. That’s between me and God, and no one else gets a say-so.
Struggle with that!
Having dealt with the inner-workings of the church and people who believe that admitting you are gay is “making peace with sin”, I can honestly say that the ostracism you speak of does NOT have a convicting effect. Can you think of any example, homosexual or not, in which a person was turned away by the church or a Christian, and subsequently decided, “Hey, they won’t have anything to do with me. They must be right.”?? As much as I want to pinpoint the meaning of the scripture you mentioned, THAT interpretation just doesn’t settle within me. I can’t imagine Jesus distancing himself from someone he considered a sinner.
To Ben Terry…Solid and truthful response. Good words.
To Katie… regardless of how a person responds, the bible teaches that is what we as Christians and as a church are to do. Put them out. You asked for an example. The man in sin that Paul addresses in 1 Corinthians was then restored in 2 Corinthians. Jesus engaged and confronted those in sin, and for those that knew better, he was even harder – consider his comments regarding the Pharisees. To the rich young ruler, he didn’t chase after the guy… he let him walk away.
Christian Lesbian – God gets to say so. His Word is clear on this subject. Homosexuality is a sin. You are in sin and practicing sin. No because I say so or someone else but God’s Word says so. If you have a problem with it, then you have a problemw with God. Galatians 5:19-21
We are in the last days, where people, even those professing Christ are calling good evil and evil good. Isaiah 5:20
God help us.
God Help us for shure!!!!!
“Don’t ever let any man tell you he is a homosexual. Always correct his vocabulary,”
This doesn’t sound like a loving or open way to have a conversation, even if your intention is good. Why not let someone just talk?
My Ragamuffin homies…nothing is off the table for me. Let’s do this thing together. Looking forward to talking. Ask away if you’d like. Much love.
You sir, need a gravatar. Go here: http://www.gravatar.com Do this.
THANK YOU DANNY!
Now someone tells me how this works ! …Let’s get that fixed
Andrew – thanks for what you are doing to minister to the hurting. I have several friends in the homosexual lifestyle that grew up in church and even when they mentioned their temptation (before they ever acted out physically with anyone) they were shunned. They have read your book and it has really helped them takes some steps forward. They are each at different points in their struggles but it is ministering to them. Thanks for stepping into the gap to be the only representation of Jesus that some of them see that is loving instead of the representations they have seeen in the church over the years!
Andrew if he came out as gay why isn’t it wrong
b/c the bible says that being gay is wrong?
The Bible does not say that same-sex attractions are wrong, it says that same-sex sexual behaviors are wrong. In the Bible it says that eunichs (celibate people) are either: born that way, man-made or by choice. That is referring to the action, not the attraction.
does it say that same-sex attractions are right? if the action is supposedly wrong, then how can the first step to do wrong, be right?
come as you are…YES! even in sin. but are we changing lives if we aren’t eradicating sin? whether it be lust, fatness, laziness, addiction to tv…
as a whole, standards for pastors should be no different than ours….
Just because the Bible doesn’t say something is right doesn’t mean that it’s wrong.
So was “Bob” acting on his attraction in any way.
i.e. dating, seeking male companionship beyond friendship? Or did he simply have the attraction?
I’m not convicting in ANY type of facet, I’m 18 yrs old and running a student ministry at my high school. This is something that comes up.
CBP – As far as I am aware, he was not seeking or acting out in any fashion. He just had this attraction he didn’t want to hide anymore.
So you can do anything you want in your mind…just as long as you don’t act on it.
Can you support that in the Bible?
Brice – Attraction does not mean lust or explicit thoughts. Don’t you know anyone who has a same-sex attraction who is a Christian and doesn’t want those attractions? What about those people? Talk to them about it and see what their experience has been.
I do not know any well. (before you judge I also don’t know any Koreans well, but that doesn’t mean I hate them.) I love them too.
But I feel the dialogue is fruitless. I am willingly to lay down all my cards, talk openly about my beliefs and you are not. I have researched your site. It is very well done and much of your efforts our wonderful. But you explicitly state you will not ever answer whether being gay is a sin or not and a host of other questions.
You give your reasons way and I can respect them. Just totally disagree with them as I feel they are unbiblical besides being purposefully vague.
To me vulnerable, honest dialogue is not shut down by me or you having black and white opinions. Yes’s and no’s. They are not bad things. And I can still talk to people after hearing them. But it extremely frustrating to dialogue with someone who refuses to share or have an opinion.
I love you all, and I am out.
bb
What is “fruitless dialogue” to you is a Kingdom opportunity from God. I would encourage you to seek someone out and listen at their feet for a few…and a Korean as well. One last thought – I do not hide the fact that I believe in a traidtional interpreation of Scripture. Obviously by this video post, I do have an opinion. Much love.
At best, you can only say one way to have sexual intercourse is wrong. And, the scholars in Biblical Greek and Hebrew will argue about that.
It is important to make the distinction between the words of Scripture and the concept of homosexuality is that the first attempts to define human sexuality were not started until the 1800s. (I believe the first usage of homosexual in American English was something like 1890.) There is about 1700-1800 years between the writing on the Christian Scriptures and the existence of the concept of homosexuality and heterosexuality–longer for the Hebrew Scriptures.
It gets more sticky than that. There was a word available to Paul in Biblical Greek that was used to describe a same gender couple. While not exactly the same thing as homosexual, it would have been close–at the very least. (You can be homosexual whether or not you have had sexual relations, let alone a partner.)
Instead, Paul used another word that scholars have not found in use anywhere else. We do not have examples to see how it is used in order to know what is meant. At best, you can only rule out one type of sexual relation by adding it to the Holiness (Health) Code–and on the same basis of not eating pork.
The Hebrew Scriptures actually are more hazy in meaning in the two verses there in question. Are those verses simply a prohibition against male temple prostitution–which the Canaanites practiced.
Before you suggest I am wearing blinders, remember that David was not condemned for his relationship with Jonathan. 2 Samuel 1.25-27 gives David’s opinion very clearly. Jonathan’s opinion of David was made very clear in 1 Samuel 18.1-4–even making a covenant with David. The covenant made David a member of the royal household, and was dressed as such.
(You Biblical scholars may also remember that marriage is described as a “covenant.” Since there are other types of covenants, you cannot say there was a same gender marriage between David and Jonathan–but it was the same type of legal contract.)
This is all we get in Scripture. Nothing quite so definite as some church leaders are saying.
As someone who is gay and is a Christian, Andrew’s work has been a breathe of fresh air. I encourage everyone to read his book because it helps those who are out of touch with the reality of someone’s struggle understand where that person is coming from. It also helps the GLBT community to see the conservative evangelical’s side. I think it is very thought provoking and have given his book to many of my friends and pointed many to his blog.
Your words mean the world to me AJ; seriiously. I’m humbled.
Carlos, I’m so very glad that you asked Andrew into the discussion. I was thinking about him while reading all of the comments. He is much more versed in this topic than I am.
As a person who feels called to minister to the gay community, I applaud you for the question, the discussion, and finally this response.
“It’s our job to love.” Beautiful.
“Our job is to love”
WORD!
Uh, Andrew your interpretation of Scripture is wrong.
Matthew 5:28 seems to show us that action isn’t the issue, it is sinful intent. When you openly distort Scripture under the guise of”reconciliation” you show your ignorance on the teachings of Scripture.
I would be willing to bet that this pastor just didn’t fire this guy, but probably gave him plenty of severance while he worked this stuff out.
I am deeply disappointed in that video. It misses the point of Scripture.
Robert.
Meekness wins here.
Please comment in that spirit.
And please don’t assume what you have and call me a liar.
For that I am not.
Thanks man!
Los
A guy can choose to not lust at a girl, though, in the same way a guy can choose to not lust at a guy. I think I agree with Andrew’s views, although I also believe SOME homosexual tendencies can be overcome through things like counseling and accountability, like any other sexual sin or issue. I don’t think people should just give up and say “oh well, I’m gay, that’s it”. I think they should try to fight back, and if that is unsuccessful, they should be celibate.
That’s exactly what I think, too. And universally the church should be addressing this and offering ways to help and support people IN LOVE.
If I could throw out a suggestion concerning Matt 5:28. I’ve understood it that to look after another woman “with lust in your eye” means to have a lustful/covetous desire for that person. And not that it merely means you find that person attractive.
I may be alone, but I’ve found plenty of women attractive that I haven’t felt a lustful or covetous desire for. In my experience, there is a difference.
If I could make an uninformed opinion about same-sex attraction, I’d assume that just because you’re gay doesn’t mean that you want to have sex with every person of your gender you see. So I see Matt 5:28 working in the same fashion here.
Robert – Both you, I and Carlos believe in a traditional interpretation of Scripture. There’s no doubt about that. If you want to talk about Jesus’ words about lust, true, however just because someone has a same-sex attraction doesn’t mean they lustfully long for men, no more than you or I or Los lustfully long for woman. You’re theology is equating same-sex attraction with porn instead of a what it really is: an orientation no different than each of us having the ability to make a choice for how we act/react to what we have…or in some cases, what we struggle with.
Robert, “intent” and “attraction” are not the same. I assume you are attracted to women. Does this attraction qualify you as a sinner, or the “intent” to lust (you know the double look, the long gaze that evoke the imagination)? Matthew 5:28 reads, “…looks at a women LUSTFULLY…” Intent and attraction are not the same!
I agree with Robert. And he is attracted to women. That is fine. Lusting isn’t. If he was attracted to men. That isn’t fine. If he lusted after a man, also not fine.
Temptations are fine and not sin. But then they are taken captive through Christ strength. You cannot go around saying, I am attracted to men, therefore I am Gay, but I will never do anything about it, therefore I am not sinning. Simply unbiblical logic.
These are not apples to apples comparisons you all are making. The totality of scripture teaches against same sex anything. It distorts our view of God and the male and female roles He established. This is much deeper than a guy liking guys. It is foundational to who God is, the roles of Christ and his Bride, etc…
Solid Brice. I agree. Your response is biblical. Good words.
Do you believe someone needs to completely overcome their same-sex attraction to be good enough for God?
Los, I’m glad you brought in another perspective on it although having read and re-read the comments in the first post I really question whether or not anything will ultimately be accomplished here. The entrenchment on both sides is so heavy…and having a position that isn’t in one camp or the other usually leaves you taking fire from both sides.
When you get into a debate like this where you say the temptations for a same-sex relationship isn’t a sin you draw the ire of most of the conservative side. Adding in that acting on those feelings IS a sin and you’ll get called bigot or worse by those on the more liberal side of the spectrum. So many involved won’t even consider the possibility the truth lies somewhere between the two extremes.
I have faith!
We’ll see.
Los
And according to 3 emails I received today… not only has something been accomplished…lives have been changed.
Los
Amen!
That’s good to know, Los. If we were all sitting around a coffee house talking about this I’d be a lot more optimistic than on a message board where most people can hide themselves. I may have been around the internet too long.
Fair.
I like to think of the internet as a personality enhancer. If you’re only civil because of a face to face interaction…you’re not really civil, you’re pretending to be out of some sense of social duty.
In some ways, we’re more like “ourselves” when that social obligations are stripped out and we don’t feel like there are consequences to our words.
Which when you think about it, can be incredibly depressing.
Seems like a win to me.
If this conversation brings one more person closer to Christ, helps understand someone they love and didn’t, or even opens the lines of communication between two people with the same Love of Christ in their heart makes it a incredible day. The most important thing over everything is to share Christ’s Love and help people find their way back to God one soul at a time.
Andrew and Los – you both have amazing ministries
Actually Jason…this discussion is doing a lot I think.
A few weeks ago I had to attend a SafeZone training. Ever since that time I’ve been seriously questioning why I believe what I believe about homosexuality.
So again, I’m grateful to Los for being brave enough to bring this conversation to the forefront. It’s enough to make you think that God has a “plan” or something.
Seriously, I say we clear the air and get it all out. Lets get rid of our Sunday Morning Worship masks and really talk.
Jason – Great points! This is why there is such an need to elevate the conversation to broader Kingdom principles. This elevation does not replace traditional interpretations of Scripture, but it does give us a new starting point of constructive converstions/dialogue instead of the back and forth.
I wince when i hear gay Christians call comments of concern “hate speach”. I throw my hands up when conservative Christians preach Romans 1 and quit before they get to 2.
I know the truth lies somewhere in between. I also must learn to trust the Holy Spirit over my own understanding of scripture. (Funny to think that in some other cultures this may be a non issue even where the Spirit moves strongly.) When I received the following revelation it came with the vague recognition that neither side has it right.
I am not GAY. I am a new creation.
If you are a christian you shouldnt call yourself gay or homosexual. I dont think you should call yourself straight either. Or conservative or liberal or democrat or republican or black or white or baptist or methodist or any other denomination. An identity tainted with anything other than what GOD says we are is an invitation for division …and trouble.
The weeks not over…and besides, you’re going to interview one of your friends in a few days so..it’s just a week starting on a different day. Thanks for providing a place to dialogue.
I don’t what exactly to think, but I’m thankful to hear this and be apart of this dialogue. As someone who is ministry staff, and former church staff I’m ready to form an idea not based on religiousity or fear. Thanks los
If I’m married wouldn’t it be kind of a problem if I have a desire for a sexual relationship with a woman who is not my wife…IMO.. that’s a problem! I say that because it’s a desire for something sinful that’s a distortion of God’s intent for that gift of sexuality– biblically it’s a desire for something that’s out of bounds.
“If you even look at a woman with lust”.. so it’s a HEART issue. Now should a man be fired for this?! IMO no (though it may depend on the situation — in this case, the guy humbly said ‘I believe in Scripture’ and wasn’t pursuing or knowingly stirring these desires). I say not to fire him because we all fall short of the glory of God.
So, Love that brother in Christ, we all have our struggles.
Help him to be more like Jesus.
Encourage him to kill sin.
Grow together.
If some1 comes up to me and is like, “my heart has wicked desires.” uhh…welcome to the club bro, and at the same time holiness is not an option. Jesus Christ redeems, lets be more like HIM. [rather than, "wowww, really?! smh smh smh o0o maaan. you're fired dude. How could your sinful nature ever have an effect on youuu?! *sarcasm*]
Alexander. Good point.
But think of it this way.
You prefer women over men.
You DON’T desire a sexual relationship with other women besides your wife.
Your safe.
Man A prefers men over women.
Man A DOESN’T desire sexual relationship with other men.
He’s as safe as you are.
Right?
Or wrong?
Orientation does not equal sex and porn.
Whatcha think?
Good point Los!
This is what I’m thinkin:
I prefer women, I’m safe — this is biblical and true and fortunately not an issue with my flesh.
Man A prefers men over women — this is immorality (biblically) and so this is now a fighting point with my heart/flesh– just as if I had a fleshly desire and preference towards violence or to punch ppl in the face who disagree with me.
I feel it. But it’s wrong. And that’s where the power of God comes in, that’s where grace comes in. That’s where the power of God can transform a wicked heart like all of ours and that’s where God puts his redemptive grace on display.
What does “IMO” mean?
In My Oppinion…. I think….
Maybe it’s “In Homosexual Opposition”?
I’m not sure how I feel about everything Andrew had to say but I do agree that the way the church is currently handling issues involving homosexuality is not right. We are not living out “love your neighbor as yourself” by ignoring or bashing members of the gay and lesbian community. Hopefully posts like these will be able to continue a dialogue among christians to really seek out a biblical solution!
Thanks Andrew and Los for talking about this issue when most people are too afraid too!
I’m with Andrew. On this subject, I like what Michael Curry, Episcopal bishop in NC, once said: “If we’re going to err, let’s err on the side of love.”
these conversations are vital to the Body. for way too long the Church has been silent on these issues and completely closed off to even discussing it. but sitting in ignorance and comfortability isn’t evangelism. resting on cold tradition and doctrine isn’t going and making disciples of all nations.
thank you, Carlos and Andrew for opening this door for grace and for truth to mingle together.
Ooooohhhh! That was good! For some reason I wanted to jump out of my rocking chair and yell AMEN! But fearful for waking up my kids, I refrained.
For most of Andrew’s video I agree. For some reason, Christianity has feared this sin and reacted to it in such a different way than other sins. And I agree with Andrew, we should actively seek out those not like us to love just as God loves us. I think even having this conversation is progress because again, no one wants to talk about it!
It’s tough to discuss such a personal situation but I appreciation the honesty and straightforwardness. Kudos guys!
“Jump out of the rocking chair…” Dude, that’s awesome. I need a rocking chair that one day I can yearn to jump out of as well! Much love.
I’m just joining the convo and for some reason, Carlos, I can’t load the original post on this discussion, so I have to jump in blindly not knowing what’s already been said.
But…
The way I see it, we’re talking about having, as Andrew says it, same sex attractions, not the physical act, which seems widely agreed is definitely a sin.
So…
As a married man, if I have attractions towards another woman(lust), that is a sin. I think we’ve all agreed on that so far.
So if my attraction toward a woman other than my wife(lust) is a sin(adultery even!), how can we say that this man’s attraction towards another man is not a sin?
If I look at another woman and think, “Man, I want that…” I’ve just committed adultery. So if a man looks at another man and says, “Man, I want that…” has he not just committed sin?
That being said, I definitely believe he has every right to lead a church as the glutton does. His thoughts of other men are no different than my thoughts of other women, which are all too frequent. If it stays a thought, then there’s no difference. Once it becomes a sexual relationship that’s a whole new ball game. Let’s not forget 1 Corinthians 6:18 which tells us that sexual sin is the only sin a man commits against his own body, whether it be heterosexual or homosexual relationships.
In short, are these attractions a sin, I think so(but I’m definitely not God so it doesn’t matter for squat what I think). Is there any difference between his attraction towards man and my overindulgence of food, no. Should he have been fired, absolutely not.
I feel I should add that while I might not agree with Andrew’s belief’s on this stuff, I think he’s without a doubt doing the right thing.
Andrew, whatever these small, and ultimately insignificant, differences between our two thoughts might be, I want to encourage to keep doing such freaking awesome stuff. Thanks for having the guts to do what so many others, including me a lot of times, wouldn’t.
For me, your post raises a question: is being attracted to someone the same as lusting after him/her?
Story time. There is a young woman to whom I was (and am) very attracted. After being attracted to her for a while (i.e. 4 or 5 months), I finally decided to pursue a relationship with her. Still, I could probably count on one hand the number of times that I actually lusted toward her (1. if I could remember specific times, and 2. assuming we’re talking about lusting for a physical connection… I lusted for an emotional connection many more times. But *can* that be considered lust? *sigh*… ambiguity.).
A month or so ago, I talked to her about my feelings for her. She rejected me. But still, I am attracted to her. It’s been a while since I lusted after her (which ironically greatly increased in frequency after she rejected me), BUT every time I’m around her, my mind is still going “d-d-duuuuuh…. wow.” Is that lust? I don’t think so. Is it attraction? You betcha.
So if it’s possible for me to be extremely attracted to a woman without lusting after her, I believe it’s possible for my homosexual friend to be attracted to a man without lusting after him.
That’s my personal POV… feel free to critique.
I agree, attraction and lust are different. If you are a heterosexual male, by definition you are attracted to women. Sin comes not in the attraction but in the lust of other people or things.
If you are a heterosexual male, by definition you are attracted to women. Attraction and lust are not the same.
now i havent been able to read all the comments from the the last couple of posts, but for the most part ive been disheartened at the harshness. has anyone talked about the priesthood of all believers? if you ask me i think we’re putting church leaders on a pedestal on which they dont belong. does a degree somehow make us more qualified to be a spiritual leader? if sin is still an issue then jesus died for nothing didnt he? if god sent jesus to pay for all of mankinds sin in order to restore our relationship with him then why do we in the church try and create this huge cavern between us and him using our sin as the cavern? god is doing all this throughout the ages to bring us to him and to restore what he originally intended to be and we are still making sin the issue. its my opinion that the majority of christians will never do anything to advance the kingdom of god because they will have lived their life focused on all their sin and trying to be more holy when the fact is no one is going to heaven perfect. ‘you will know theyre my disciples because they love one another’ there is no such thing as a second class christian, and that goes for everyone who will call me a heretic because of this.
also all this talk of holiness…i mean are we trying to outdo what jesus said he did FOR US???
Preach it brother (hand raised
1 Peter 2:9, 1 Cor 4:1 come to mind
I know. this is part of the big picture we cant seem to get a handle on.
IMO I believe the biggest problem with the gay culture, is their sexual orientation has became their identity. When you have an identity outside of Christ, that can lead to problems. I caught my self telling a lie twice this week (which is just as much of a sin as homosexuality) but I do not see my identity as a liar. I would never say I am a untruthful man. I am a child of God who messed up. I have never even looked ay my identity as a straight man. no matter which one, your sexual orientation should not be your identity, that is dangerous, gay or straight. So I would like to see us embrace the gay community, but really minister to them that their identity is in Christ. Lets start NOT by telling them they are wrong orientation, but tell them there concept of themselves is inaccurate. Lets find our true identity in Christ first, then see where everything else falls.
I think you’d really enjoy reading Andrew’s book “Love is an Orientation.”
Much of what you said concerning sexual orientation as an identity is a point he speaks in great detail on.
I will definately read it. Thanks Danny!
I often wonder if the church had been more engaging early on would gay culture have gone so far off the deep end. I know i didnt have anyone to turn to in 1975. No one wanted to provide us any other aspects to our identity. All we had was each other from every kind of background. Sex was what we had in common.
Great posts this week Los. Thanks.
I have been reading your blog for a long time, but haven’t commented before.
I am a gay Christian who was a pastor for almost 12 years (youth minister, church planter, lead pastor) and resigned from the church I founded/led this past summer when they found out about my struggle/issue and the fact that I had failed to be celibate/chaste.
While there is more to the story than that (happy to give details of helpful), but within a week I lost my ministry, community, purpose, home, best friends, job and what I had committed my whole life to — because of my own sin. I resigned because that was the right thing to do. I was completely cast out and disowned by the community.
All of this is simply to say thanks for being willing to talk about these issues… and thanks Andrew as well. Your ministry inspires me.
Whichever side you end up on with this issue theologically (and, to be honest, I am still very much in process), I think we all have to admit that the church has not done a good job on this one and too many people are getting hurt, are being kept from Jesus, or are being forced to live behind masks, lies and closet doors in order to stay in the church — something Jesus would never want.
Thanks again…
Thank you for being so bold to share your life and story with us. These are all important parts (especially for the Church to hear) to move in a more incarnational place of productivity in changing our ‘medium of engagement’ from argumentative to engaging, surrounding divisive topics such as this one.
Thanks Andrew!
I appreciate the discussion first. Where I see a glaring whole in the position taken by Andrew is it’s moralism at best, not the gospel and it ignores what depravity and regeneration mean. To tackle depravity first…
Andrew’s recounting of Bob saying “I’m gay…won’t act on it…I don’t know why I have this” , the answer is, Bob you’re like that because you are a human and the bible says we are born sinners. You may very well be born with homosexual desires. That’s very possible. But it doesn’t change the fact that it’s a sin and you need Jesus. We all have a sin nature Bob, but yours may possibly include that specific proclivity to sin(iniquity). So come on and join the rest of us at the foot of the cross
But the doctrine of regeneration says that we are born again in Christ, dead to our sin, we have a new nature in Christ now. New hearts, new desires, new passions, new minds, a new creation. All of it. Managing your sin does you no good. It might make you a better citizen but it gets you no closer to Christ. God wants to change our desires from the filthy depraved sinners to the clean, washed and renewed children of God.
Managing sin is not gospel. A brutal ripping out of sin is gospel. To even say “I’m a gay man” is identifying yourself in your sin, not in the new nature Christ suffered and died for you to have. We all have “the ability to act or not act on sinful behaviours” as you put it Andrew. Homosexuality is not a special case. But not acting on a sinful desire is not the end all be all. Sanctification is making us into the image of Christ who had no sinful desires. That’s our model. But now you said…
“Nowhere in scripture does it say having a same sex attraction is a sin”
Incorrect sir. In fact scripture says any desire(acted upon or not) outside of heterosexual, monogamous marriage is a sin. I’m a married man, if I have desires for another woman it’s adultery. If I have desires for a man it’s adultery. When I was single and had desires for a woman it was fornication, if I had desires for a man it was fornication. The sin is in your heart, Jesus says this clearly. To say that sin is only what you act upon is to ignore huge portions of scripture and pretty much the entire gospel narrative.
So I pray for Bob that he’d let Jesus work on his heart to change his heart and desires, not be satisfied with his old one. God wants your heart and wants to give you a new one. He’s not there to help you manage your sin.
I’ve have the pleasure of working with a wonderful woman in our church who 2 years ago was a lesbian and hated Christians. Through God’s miraculous work, she came to know Christ. We continued to minister to her, and soon after God started working on her heart big time. I remember when she told us she didn’t even desire that lifestyle anymore and her desires were being completely reworked by Jesus. It’s been incredible to see, she is truly a new creation. In fact I think I’ll put up a video soon of an interview with her so people can see what God is able to do in the heart.
God bless you Bob, prayin for you man. We worship a risen Savior who can turn the darkest of sinners into a new creation. Believe it man, you don’t have to carry any weight in sin or of your old sin nature.
This might be the most well written rebuttal yet. Thanks for your mind, heart, and spirit.
I think what Andrew (PLEASE chime in if I’m misunderstanding you) is getting at is it’s not a sin to be tempted. Just like it wouldn’t be a sin for someone to be born with a proclivity toward addiction and to have to face that over and over. The question becomes are they taking those thoughts captive or allowing those thoughts to become something which define and control them.
We shouldn’t define our identity from what we face but our position as redeemed by Christ.
amen.
I appriciate your explanation of the gospel, Kyle, however it’s hard to cover a lifetime’s worth of info in a 10 minute video. I am not saying that we never talk about Christ or sin; I am saying that we have to earn that right first! Too often today many Christians take for granted the blood of the cross and just throw anything we want in the center of the ring and feel justified for doing such, because of Christ’s covering. That’s not “winning” anyone to anything except being more strongly entrentch in their own side. Not to sound shameless here, but it seems you’ve thought about these things a lot, and I wrote 204 pages deliniating a wholistic understanding of the culture war and our Christ-like engagement with the gay community in my book Love is an Orientation (InterVarsity Press published it.). I pray it is of use to all who read it.
Andrew I’ll definitely give the book a tumble. Sounds like a good book to discuss with the former G&L people in our church.
I said this in a reply above, so forgive me if you’ve already read that reply.
This is re: “any desire(acted upon or not) outside of heterosexual, monogamous marriage is a sin.”
My question is: does attraction equal desire? (This is assuming that by “desire” you mean desire for… er… sexually oriented physical interaction–regardless of the intensity thereof. [trying to be as couth as possible.
]) I’ll point you to my reply above (to Travis’ post) for my reasoning, but I don’t think it does. Though desire (probably) always includes attraction, attraction doesn’t always include desire (imho).
Furthermore, as Christians we can recognize that our our flesh is drawn toward things which we don’t desire. (Rom 7:17-25). It’s a tension that we’re going to have to live with on this earth, and I think it’s one that God is comfortable with. We’re supposed to strive after Him after all.
Matthew – I don’t believe attaction = desire. To me, desire = a passionate longing (which on a spectrum can go from desparate lust to general yearning); and attraction (which can be included in a desire) isn’t automatically associated with a desire (sexual or otherwise).
Interesting distinction you make between attraction and desire and I don’t mean that sarcastically. If I follow your definition of attraction you’ve defined it strikingly similar to iniquity, which the cross takes care of as well. Iniquity being our proclivity, bent, or attraction to sin; not the sinful action but the character of that sin. Jonathan you’re absolutely right, as not yet fully sanctified people we have conflicting desires. But….
We can’t claim that the presence of that iniquity in our lives is reflectant of Jesus. It’s not. Psalm 32:5 says it wonderfully, “I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, I will confess my transgressions to the Lord, and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah”
In Jesus we have forgiveness and freedom not just from our sins, but from the iniquity *of* our sins. We can’t cover our iniquity, we have to take it to the cross where it’s taken care of once and for all. Homosexuality doesn’t get a third option here, it isn’t a special category of sin/iniquity. I think stopping at that point feeling like we are justified in our iniquities(or attractions) misses the glory of the gospel. I’m not preaching condemnation, please hear me, I’m preaching the hope of the gospel for a hurting people in our culture that I pray the church is able to reach better.
Maybe you make another distinction between iniquity and attraction and I’m open to hearing that. “attraction” doesn’t have any literal biblical play so we don’t really have a common denominator on that word to work off.
Kyle – You can call it iniquity as well. Great points and I agree with what you said. The one point I would add on top of what you said: Is that just like our innate human iniquity that is covered, not all of that covering equates to us being able to overcom perfectly. We have overcome sin because of the cross! However there is always this duality in what we understanding to be true and live within (freedom from sin because of Christ’s death) vs. the practicality of what it means to live that out on a daily basis here on Earth – which because we are born into sin, we cannot escape even though we have already overcome b/c of Jesus. The same goes for homosexuality. I’m not arguing for a third option (even though 1/2 of the culture war is based on the broader gay community arguring for a third option), but I am arguing to start to align our missiological framework in its applications of what we understand to be true vs. how that Truth is lived out. I know quite a few people who have ‘overcome their same-sex attractions’! I’m not denying that reality as Truth, because it is legit. But I am also trying to be realistic in understanding that just because they now consider themselves ’straight’ (or ‘overcome’) doesn’t mean it will occur for everyone else. Hope is still there in people, yes. But placing a metric of success vs. failure on this situation causes more probelms than living within the journey centered around Christ.
Yeah I’m with you on the “not made perfect” yet. We’re all on our paths of sanctification until glorification.
“Managing sin is not gospel. A brutal ripping out of sin is gospel.”
Yes. This is why I say I WAS gay, not I AM gay.
When we underestimate God’s power to do the impossible in our lives, we stop Him from doing the impossible in our lives. Even in Paul saying I AM the worst of sinners in 1 Tim I think he is merely acknowledging that we are all sinners and will remain that way, but need no longer be enslaved to that nature if we choose.
I agree with what Jonathan has noted above too, that being tempted isn’t a sin since Jesus was tempted but never sinned. The ambiguity of what is temptation v desire v attraction is certainly a tough issue.
Wow, Kyle. That was awesome. You summed up what I believe exactly. Don’t even need to add my thoughts
Kyle, I hear your heart and agree with most of what you had to say about the gospel not being about just managing sin and Christ wanting to transform our hearts. But at the same time I find parts of this quote to be disturbing
“You may very well be born with homosexual desires. That’s very possible. But it doesn’t change the fact that it’s a sin and you need Jesus.”
So just by having those desires (and I am not talking about lusting in my heart after someone), someone is sinning 24/7 as a result of something that they did not choose? I guess I have come to understand that sinning is taking an action or choosing to do something that is a transgression of a divine law or an act that defies God’s will for us, thus creating distance (not separation) in our walk with God. By stating that having a desire to be with or a predisposition (regardless of whether it was caused by nature or nurture) that could lead to pursuing emotional/sexual thoughts or actions in a lustful manner is stating that there is something inherently sinful in a person that is causing them to live in a perpetual state of sin even if they are not acting on those desires. And this is different from the concept of “original sin” that puts us all in the same place as you seem to be talking about persistance in sin that is related to something that a person can not just choose to stop.
I acknowledge the legitimacy of your friend’s story who claims to no longer have those desires, but what about the majority of Christians (myself included) that continue to hold to a conservative interpretation of scripture as it relates to sexuality, but continue to experience a physical/emotional draw to members of the same sex.
To be quite honest, this seems to something that (primarily straight) people are quick to bring up without understanding the mental/emotional/spiritual ramifications that it can have for those that are gay or struggle with homosexuality. To highlight that a person is inherently sinful instead of highlighting Christ’s love and the scandelous grace of God is an idea that is more likely to land gay people in caskets than in church pews.
Kevin,
Because of original sin, we have depravity. You are right the 2 are not the same thing. But biblical depravity is that all humans are born into sin, we are sinners by nature and choice. Not that we are committing sins 24/7, but that we are a sinner 24/7, fallen short of the glory of God and without a savior we are deserving of and destined for hell. Enter the cross.
You are correct in that I cannot relate to much of the emotional anguish that G&L community feel in this. But that’s ok, because I am not their mediator, Christ is. And he is our perfect mediator and priest because he came in flesh, was tempted in all ways but did not sin. So all I can do is point people to Jesus. I’ll try my best to minister, server and love, but Jesus is the answer, not me.
Highlighting our natures in sin I actually find to be quite comforting and should be comforting to the G&L community as well. They aren’t humanoid freaks, they were born a sinner as I and we both equally need Jesus to save us. That I think is the great error of the church, somehow portraying homosexuality as a more depraved sin than any other sexual sin. It does come with an intense set of cultural attachments that may make freedom from it harder though. I’m not saying all homosexuals are born that way, I’m merely saying some of them may have been born with an iniquity in their heart/mind that drew them to it. I don’t argue the whole “I was born gay” thing because it doesn’t make a difference. So I concede it saying, I was born a sinner too, so we’re even.
Anyway I can’t bend the gospel in order to get people in the pews(removing depravity). Getting them in the pews is not my goal. Showing them Jesus as the truth, the light, the way, their reconciler to the Father is my goal. Lots of people sit in pews and know nothing of Jesus. There are some things that can’t be contextualized and made cool. The gospel will never be cool to everyone. But it is the hope of everyone, so I pray we can communicate it in love and truth.
Kyle,
Although I pretty much agreed with everything that you just wrote, I did not really see much that you said that spoke to the main question that I was raising except for the sentence where you typed
” Not that we are committing sins 24/7, but that we are a sinner 24/7″
If your main idea was to get at that we are all born with a sinful nature, then I completely agree. It may be coming down to what you mean by “desires” when you said above something to the effect of “having homosexual desires is sinful.” I was trying to highlight that there is a difference between being attracted to, interested in, drawn to (however you want to put it) and lusting in your mind after someone. You were making it sound like just being attracted to someone of the same sex was a sin, but if you believe what you wrote above “not that we are committing sins 24/7″ and this does not change with a gay or lesbian person compared to a heterosexual person, then I am on the same page.
And related to the pews section, I was merely writing and using two different images that are closly related to one another in physical make up but differ drastically in that one symbolizes death and the other symbolized and pointed towards something that is life giving (Christ, the Church). I agree that getting people into pews is not the point as Christ is the main focus and his death on the cross and resurrection that followed is our hope. I have slowly but surely been loosing faith in the institutional church (even though I still go and will continue to go) so my point is not to just get people to church. My point was that focusing on someone’s sins (and I’m not talking about their sinful nature) is not going to draw them to Christ and that the Church should be better know by what they are for than what they are against.
At 50 I dont deal with the sexual temtation that much any more. Yes I feel joy when I recognize that something which once was temptation has lost its appeal. Is it wrong for me to think that the emotional desires asssciated with same gender attraction may not ever make that list? Should they?
Thanks, Los and Andrew both, for being brave enough to host and facilitate this discussion!
Just a comment, But if people dont realize that this is not an impossible thing to come out of, then how can anyone truly be free? Love EVERYONE but Jesus came to set the captives free!
love Andrew’s heart for the GLBT community. i didn’t know his ministry existed, let alone any ministry even remotely CLOSE to it, but am so happy to have been introduced to it through your blog, Los.
i have to say i agree with Kyle on this one, that sin begins in one’s heart. but i also wholeheartedly agree that we should be pursuing our “enemies” relentlessly with Christ’s love. i’ve always had compassion for the GLBT community, especially as one whose friends were protesting, praying, and fasting for their demise. i never understood why i felt for them so deeply, or how to express that compassion while holding on to Christ’s standard of holiness until i saw Andrew’s response.
i’m definitely going to find out more about The Marin Foundation now and see what i can do to get involved.
Wow. I am sitting here with tears in my eyes.
I am working on my masters in counseling ministries and one of the first projects I have decided to undertake is an intensive investigation into how we can minister to the GLBT community in a more effective, inclusive way. I’m sure you won’t be surprised to find that many other students are shocked and dismayed to hear this!
Your posts today have certainly been sent to touch many peoples lives, but for me they just renew my determination in my ministry.
God’s love is being spread here today. It’s an amazing thing!
A thought:
If someone has homosexual tenancies, yet chooses to abstain from the sinful act of homosexuality…why title themselves as ‘gay’?
what i’m saying here is…why do we feel the need to identify ourselves with the sin?
As if to say every christian would introduce themselves that way. “Hi, i’m bob and i’m a liar”
I don’t get it…
Christ is the only thing i want attached to my name, the only thing i want to find my identity in.
I feel like putting a title on it, proves that its much more than just an attraction. Identity requires action.
just food for thought.
I get that question a lot, and I could write a chapter on it, but here’s my quick answer:
We learn a lot from the field of sociology. They say that what tends to happen is in minority populations (as is the gay communtiy), the minority group over time formulates an identity around what the minority group has in common (in this case their same-sex attractions/sexuality). And even if you were to take one of the members of the minority group and place them in the middle of the majority (broader Christian culture) group (e.g. a Christian with a same-sex attraction who believes in a traditional interpretation of Scripture), they will still have their overarching identity tied to their minority mindset. You will be learning more about this in Carlos’ next post, but that’s a start.
Good answer Andrew…
Also, let me add… for gay people, sex is only one part of the equation. Even if I never had sex, I would still be gay. I think it is interesting that this discussion always becomes only about sex. But being gay is not just about sex — it is also about how I love, who I feel safe with, what I dream about, how I relate to people, who makes my heart skip a beat when I see them… none of those things are sinful, but for me they are gay. We need to get beyond the “it is just about sex” deal if we are going to be able to have any real conversations on the topic. Just like being straight isn’t just about sex, the same is true for gays.
Just my thoughts…
I often wonder if the desire or lust towards the same sex is just a lie of the devil? his goal is to try and wedge between our relationships with God, and I have seen this be one of the biggest struggles. I have friends who come out of the closet, feel rejected, and give up on being Christians all together. This is the overall goal of the devil, is it not? He is winning. I don’t believe God wants us to have these struggles or live in this pain. I don’t think God wants situations like this to harbor hate in our churches, it only makes Christ followers look bad and in turn makes our God look unfavorable to those who do not know Him. i am not claiming to know anything, but food for thought. I think we have a healing God and i have to believe that God can heal the desire, because I believe it is a lie of the devil. Our God is greater than the devil. But, first, i think our churches need to be able to say we welcome, love and accept all members of GLBT, and we love you too much to NOT tell you it’s wrong to act on those desires.
also, i want to add that our God judges US at the end and if we act in hate, we are murderers in God’s eye. we all have our sin, and we all struggle. but like all other sins, i believe God can heal this sin.
One quick question: At least a handful of you have started out your comments by saying “I don’t agree with everything Andrew says but…. (and then go on to generally say something nice or constructive)”. I’m just curious though, what don’t you all agree with? It’s one thing to say you don’t agree, it’s another to say what you don’t agree with so we can openly talk about these issues. Thanks.
In an ideal world, we wouldn’t be struggling with any sins. That is not what the Lord originally intended for us to do. We were meant to live in perfect harmony with Him, but that was thwarted because of Adam and Eve. For some, lying is a huge struggle, for others, it just happens to be homosexuality.
Speaking of Adam and Eve, here’s something that just popped into my mind. Adam and Eve knew of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, because the Lord had warned them about it. Ultimately, they were tempted by the serpent to try the fruit and decided not to heed the God’s warning to them. Was it a sin if they were tempted, or was it a sin simply because they acted on it and disobeyed? I don’t think the struggle is a sin, I think acting upon it is.
At the end of the day, if a homosexual acts on their desires, it doesn’t make them any more of a sinner than I. Christ died for his sins, her sins, my sins, and everyone else’s sins. The wages of sin (all sin, not just homosexuality) is death. James 2:10 says, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.” Sin is sin in God’s eyes. Ranking sins according to what we think is a man-made thing that the Church seems to get a kick out of doing. I suck at life, so I sure as heck am not going to be the one setting the standard on what is a greater sin, and what is a lesser sin. I think we should leave that to God, and from what I can tell, sin is the same to Him.
God so loved the world, right? That’s why I’m going to try to do to.
What about non-practicing petophiles?
or non-practicing beastiality people?
or non-practicing rapists
or non-practicing insert other sin that many are saying are identical.
Jesus loves all of the above. Do they get to be Pastors?
I mean all of the above in Jesus love and would say it all face to face.
Can a non-practicing rapist be a rapist? Can a non-practing glutton, be a glutton? To practice is to be. That’s why I talked earlier about how I think acting upon these things is the issue, I don’t think the struggle is the issue.
Wow.
Strong things to be associating with being gay.
I don’t think Brice’s comment can be disregarded as you so quickly did. What is the difference? Is it that society has deemed that certain sins are less taboo? Or is it that the sin of acting on a homosexual relationship deals with consenting adults and the sins that Brice listed all do not.
I don’t know, but I would be interested in that discussion.
I think that in today’s society people do not associate their gay neighbor or friend with rapist, molestors, or pedaphiles. It seems that only Christians seem to do this. I think that is what Los was getting at. In some Christian circles, GLBT people are treated as second class citizens while society treats them as part of society. Why would a gay person want to go to a church where they are listed in the same sentence as such criminals? (I think we can all agree that whether you are gay or straight that rapist, molestors, or pedaphiles are wrong in their actions, but not in their need for a Savior.)
yep, Brice’s comment and then your comment Trevor were the tipping point for having to stop reading comments on this blog today as my heart simply can’t take anymore of that today. You can only be associated with a pedophile so many times until it starts to chip away at you.
Pedophiles and rapists hurt other people being what they are. Besides, these are NOT sexual orientations. They describe a harmful power relationship of one person controlling another. (Bestiality is probably this type of relationship, too–but it does not involve another person.)
A gay or lesbian is not any more (or less) likely to cause harm to another person than a heterosexual person. Heterosexuality and homosexuality are not defined by a power relationship of one person over another, but by a mutual relationship.
A gay teacher is just as unlikely to have sexual relations with a student as a heterosexual teacher is. That is not true about pedophiles.
There is your difference.
Thank you for that. I can’t hold it together enough to be civil in the wake of those kinds of comparisons, so I just stay quiet.
What about non practicing murderers? Sorry Saul. Guess someone else will have to get the name Paul and write half the new testament. Okay on a more serious note. IMO When someone presents themselves for accountability you dont throw them overboard. And its not my job or yours to say who can or can’t preach. Unless we are given that authority in that fellowship at that time I must humbly state: its really not any of our business. I could rail about Preachers who slander over the airwaves and teach false doctrine. What good does it do? Let ME set the example of what Christ says is right.
Ok so the Bible is PRETTY clear on this issue… People will go so out of their way to prove that what they’re doing is okay even thought it is NOT! Jesus loves everyone… whether your gay, straight, an alcoholic, a drug addict or a prostitute… Jesus loves you all but nevertheless homosexuality is just as wrong as alcoholism. Sin is sin. Just like if two people were to rob a bank and one person just sat there and did nothing while his accomplice stole the money… who is guilty? They both are. They will both go to jail. Sin is sin. I wish people would just take the Bible for what it is and stop trying to make it say what you want it to say. Being a Christian is not easy… It was never meant to be easy! Giving up fleshly desires is hard. “Take up your cross and follow me”… Carrying a cross ain’t easy… My opinion is if you have to work this hard and really search for a scripture in the right version to justify what you’re doing then… IT’S NOT RIGHT!! Homosexuality goes against nature… It is not the way God intended… He did not put two men or two women in the Garden… He put a man and a woman. People may say they are born with those urges and yes that may be true but that doesn’t make it right! There are many child predators out there who were born with urges that are unnatural to us… Just because he was born with it does that make it right??? No. Take the Bible for what it is. It’s all black and white. There’s no room for your interpretation. Homosexuality is wrong. Plain and simple.
From what I’ve read, no one here is arguing if it’s right or wrong (and thank you RS for that!). So you’re trying to prove a point that is already in agreement by probably a majority of this audience. My one question for you though, why did you jump right towards “child predator” as an analogy for homosexuality? Those are analogies that do nothing other than continue this culture war having each side dig in further, based on nothing but unsubstantiated perceptions from one group to the next. It’s like the gay community saying that conservatives are homophobes because there might be some conservative homophobes. Might be true here and there, but generalizable – no way! Just a thought.
Thank you for that loving response and not even really taking the time to understand what I was saying. I do not put them in the same category but pedophiles say they are born that way and homosexuals think they are born that way. I am not a homophobe. I just believe the Bible. We are to love everyone but never should we condone their sin or tell them no it’s ok to have those tendencies because it’s not! I have a cousin who is gay. My grandmother prays and prays and prays and prays and prays for him. She cries herself to sleep every night crying out to God for him! Now are you going to put her in that same category as those narcissistic pastors who really aren’t Christians because they won’t let a self proclaimed gay work in their church! God is still God! If Jesus overturned the money changers tables then what makes you think he would be ok with a gay man or woman working in His Father’s house!!! He destroyed Sodom for a reason!
Bethany – I think Andrew did take time to understand your post. If you read his blog you will notice that he take a lot of time to respond to comments and understand the commenter’s point of view. He will also admit when he is wrong or has misunderstood a point of view. He is an extremely bright person when it comes to this.
My question to you is how are you loving your cousin? If you look at Jesus’ ministry he always built a bridge relationally before turned on a light spiritually to those he interacted with. Just because we are loving on someone doesn’t mean we have to agree with their lifestyle or point of view.
When it comes to this issue, most already have their point of view and it does not do any good to try to convice the other side that they are wrong and your are right. What we have to do is to try to understand the other person’s story. What makes them tick. What plays in to how they believe what they do. Most gay people will not want to be near a Christian because of past hurts from Christians. This is an opportunity to change the person’s perception of Christians…to actually love them in a real and tangible way. I hope you and your family have that opportunity with your cousin.
What else did he destroy sodom for besides “men laying with men”? That was not the only reason.
Men lying with men wasn’t the reason at all. It is not even close. We even have the words on Jesus on this one. It was all about hospitality.
Rape has nothing to do with homosexuality or heterosexuality. Rape is a power relationship of one person domineering another person. That is why defense attorneys seek to show that there was some element of consensual sexual relations in a rape trial.
Nothing in the story of the destruction of Sodom is there anything consensual.
Bethany, I appreciate your passion for the truth of God’s word and agree with you the Bible is very clear about homosexuality (and fornication, and adultery, and every kind of sexual sin) being a sin. But I think Andrew was just pointing out that jumping from gay to pedophile analogy reinforces some of the gay communities negative views about Christians.
You say there is no room for interpretation in Scripture. It is all black and white. Is that so?
If everything is black and white, why are you–a woman–trying to teach men here in public? Paul was very clear about that, wasn’t he?
Or was he?
Actually Paul is less clear than some people think, as he even greeted a woman once as a fellow apostle. Then there is the head of the first European congregation–a woman.
Those people that say that the Bible was very clear on homosexuality forget that the concept of sexuality wasn’t invented until the 1800s. We have to dig a little deeper.
Paul didn’t use the standard Biblical Greek word to describe a same gender couple. Those in such relationships could be assumed to be gay, even if the concept of homosexuality did not exist then. It may have been the only way to get the concept across if Paul had meant that–but he didn’t use that word.
Paul used another word that scholars have not found used in Scripture or secular writings of the day. We have not context for it, in order to properly define it.
Then you have the issue of what did the early church think on this subject. The Eastern Orthodox Church venerates St. Sergius and St. Bacchus–who were described as being lovers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Sergius_and_Bacchus http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13728a.htm
It is not that clear from the early church.
I forget who commented earlier about temptation, but Scripture tells us that Jesus, our Lord and Savior, was tempted in all ways man is tempted (Hebrews 4:15). ALL WAYS! That means every single way.
Now Jesus didn’t act on any of those temptations. So that begs the broader theological question, if we work off of a metric that says blatant temptation is sin, then did Jesus sin? According to one of the commentors rationale, yes, Jesus did sin because He faced temptations. But we all know Jesus didn’t sin. He was perfect and did not give in to or act upon any of those temptations, which once again, were temptations in every possible fashion known to humanity.
How does that lesson about Jesus then translate to this situation, or to you or I? I would think about this before talking about temptation or “non-practicing” as sin when it’s recorded in Scripture that Jesus had a parallel situation for such transcultural principles as this one.
So if Jesus was tempted in all ways. Got it. Why doesn’t he call himself gay?
I don’t think we are just talking about temptations.
Or else you are saying Jesus was gay.
Brice, please read my response above to Krissy Leigh. And now is not the forum for sarcastic comments like you last sentence. Much love.
oops, didn’t hit the right reply button…
my thoughts are below. Keep up the dialogue…
There are those that do. He only hung around other men. Just about the only women in his life (besides his mother) is Mary and Martha–two women living together.
I don’t necessarily believe necessary to believe Jesus was gay. I also don’t think you can rule it out, based on Scriptural evidence.
I dont recall Jesus claiming he was straight either. Yet he was certainly tempted with women. He knew who he was. Not homosexual. Certainly not normal by the cultures standards. Would Jeus scall himself straight today in our culture? I doubt it. He would stick with his true identity.
Dead serious. It was referred to as temptation only. Why is this gentlemen then calling himself gay? I do not define myself by every temptation I have, actually any.
Neither did Jesus…
Perhaps because a valid definition of gay is “having a sexual attraction to persons of the same sex”
So that begs the question is that just a temptation?
It seems that is what is being debated at the core here…
Andrew, I read your stuff. Just don’t agree with it. And you are the one who equated Jesus in this. So do you stand by your argument?
And even in the video above there was sarcasm…
I don’t agree either
WOW. There is a HUGE problem with your base-line interpretation. Just because someone has a “same-sex attraction”, that doesn’t make them gay or homosexual. A homosexual is one who engages in homosexual activity. So if someone is “struggling” with a same-sex attraction, that’s exactly what it is. They are a person with a same-sex attraction. They aren’t gay.
Someone who struggles with a same-sex attraction that admits they are gay is really saying, “Hey, this is the way I am. There’s nothing either I or God can do about it. God made me this way.” And that is simply not the truth. God does not make people gay. God does not make people gossips. God does not make people liars. God does not make people haters.
amen.
Not really understanding some of the debate here…
I have struggled with certain sins in my past and I didn’t need hand holding and coddeling. I needed a kick in the pants. I have heard you, Los, say that kind of thing all the time…
Why not here?
Do you think God loved Annanias and Saphira? Yes. Did God love Moses and not allow him into the promised land? Yes. God killed Achan (or whatever his name was (to late for googling) for touching the Ark as it was falling off the wagon (no puns there…).
People it is OK to admit something isn’t right and for there to be consequences.
I am not leaving this series of posts encouraged by peoples love, but only discouraged by what they think love is. And most of them are my brothers and sisters so It is OK to get after it. Again there are higher rules in place as family.
You need to check your definitions a little closer. It is not necessary to have had same-gender sexual relations to be homosexual.
Andrew & Los I have a question & I don’t mean to sound confertaional I’m truly inquiring. I have one friend that is openly gay but has chosen not to be in a relationship right now, not becuse of religioes convitions but he just feels like he dousent want the complications of a relationship right now. I have another friend that is strait & he admits he fights with lust & has dated a few times but just dosent want to be married right now, so he mostly just dosent even try the dateing thing much becuse he knows he’s going to have real troble with hands off, & he’s a christion & beleaves no sex before marrige. then theres me I am geneticly mixed & truly a eunic, I have no sexule disires towards either gender & wouldn’t be able to profoem normaly if I did. so heres me question, is one more “right then the others? one is making a choice based on his beleafe systems, one is making a choice becuse of life prefernces, & one isn’t really making a choice persay just living the only way they can. douse the motivation make a differnce?? thanks
Wow! What a question WackyWilliams. I would suggest that at the end of the day it comes down to:
1. Religious belief
2. Intent to live out that belief/lack their-of in a realtional context
So someone who is not in a reliationship just because they haven’t found anyone is totally different than choosing to live relationally in certain ways due to a belief in Scripture.
I guess the part about lust that really gets to me is that everyone, all of us, you and I and each reader of this blog or any blog has at some point lusted for another (person or object). It’s a huge part of our fallen world. We must never cast lust as irrelevant, but we must also stop using lust as a tool against others to create heiarchies when lust is so common within human structure.
thank you so much Andrew for exsplaning things to me in a way I really hadn’t continplated. & I agree we all lust for something. I guess I just feel kind of left out sometimes becuse in this very prevlent sexule culter it seems to be very hard to find a perspective of not desiring sexule relations & how to deal with the other lusts I do have to fight with (alcahol, drugs, food, control, ext). I love & care about both of my friends but to be honest almost feel like the unbeleaving one has taught me more about about Gods grace & accseptince, then the beleaving one, so it’s real hard to even contimplate he could be lost weather be for his sexule orintaion or just not trusting christ as his savior, becuse to be honest eventhough I do consider my self a Christ follower I follow waaaay behind & fear trusting him almost on a dayly bases.
Ok. Even as I type I am nervous because like anyone else struggling with anything in their life, or going out on a limb, or openly discussing personal thoughts, convictions, or “orientations,” I am scared of either being mis-interpreted, or mis-representing myself. But who cares… (I guess I do.)
I have one major problem with what I have NOT seen in the posts above. And, to be honest it is something that bothers me about what I have NOT seen, or heard in the Western church for a long time. Probably for the same reason that WE as the BODY have done such a horrendously CRAPPY job of ministering to those struggling under the oppression of same-sex attraction: FEAR.
Today in western christianity we are operating under an oppression of fear of the spiritual world. Scared that if we call things for what they are, that either A) we will jinx something (which is actually superstition not spiritual at all) or B) we will offend someone. (but news flash… the Gospel, and the Cross, and even Grace can be offensive!) Because it is all about perception and our perception has been spiritually SKEWED because their is an enemy who is working, along with other supernatural powers (sometimes referred to as Demons or Spirits) to ultimately, and utterly, destroy ALL of our lives to the same degree that Christ wants to GIVE us life (John 10:10) We are in a spiritual battle, and homosexuality, along with every other “Sin-life struggle,” is a spiritual battle. NOT an orientation battle.
We have talked a lot about what scripture may or may not say about whether or not “Same Sex Attraction” is a sin or just a temptation… But I have not seen one time someone deal with the heart of the issue, which is where all temptation comes from… We have talked a lot about how much Jesus loves us. All of us. Perfectly. But have said nothing abut how much Satan HATES us. Perfectly.
Temptation of ALL shapes, sizes, and varieties. Straight, Gay, Culinary, Health, Ego, come from the powers and spiritual forces that have set themselves against our lives. ie: Satan, and his 1/3 portion of former angels. Get this… A father brings an epileptic son to the Disciples and Jesus. Sounds like he needs healing right? Wrong. It was a demonic force, bent on destroying that young mans life.
You struggle with lying… same sex attraction… gluttony… guess what? There is a demonic force at work, bent on destroying your life. This is a spiritual battle. That is why we will never REASON our way to some kind of “acceptable” “meet half-way about the issue” answer.
In the church today we are afraid to talk about what we don’t understand. Guess what? There is a spiritual force at work, bent on destroying the church by making it afraid to ask powerful questions, afraid of attacking back the spiritual forces that are trying to break down the walls of our lives. We should be the ones breaking down HELL’s gates and pushing back the territory marked by the enemy that once belonged to the Kingdom of God.
want more? Read stories like the Cross and the Switchblade or stories from missionaries long ago passed… and you will find not the victories of sin habits beaten, but victories of spiritual powers destroyed, by the power of the Holy Spirit at work in humans just like you or me.
Back to homosexuality.
Recently I watched a low budget but well thought out movie… maybe you watched it too… “Lord, Save Us From Your Followers”
I cried. The church has for too long… Demonized the sinner…. And that is a tragedy that dates as far back as the church has been in existence. It’s not right, and honestly, I feel, in and of itself, is a sin, at least for me. Because it’s not right, and to him who knows to do right, and does it not… to him (me) it is a sin, and I am guilty. I want desperately for the homosexual community to find refuge in the church! I do not, however, ever, want homosexuality to find refuge in the church.
There is a demon of “same-sex attraction” he is the offspring of the full grown demon of “Homosexuality”
The person however is not a demon… any more than a fat pastor is a demon.
I’ll stop there with that. You get the picture.. but the whole pastor thing brings me to another point to close.
We have been talking a lot about the “gay community” and the “church community.” I agree whole heartedly that this is a subject that needs to be addressed… DESPERATELY. But this whole issue started with “Bob” who was not “outside” the church community but rather was INSIDE the church community. And not only that, he was a church leader. Not just a member.
If he was straight booted (pun not really intended, and it would be in bad taste anyways…) then that would be 100% wrong. Where is the love ya’ll? IF you are a church leader and you are struggling with ANYTHING… (it’s called being human) find someone else… another church leader, or higher ranked church leader, even from another church or community, that you can be real and honest with. If you are a church leader and someone comes to you with an issue… you need to already have in place a procedure for removal, reform, reconciliation, and possible re-instatement. Remembering… “But by the Grace of GOD.. there go I.”
Because this is a spiritual battle and we are all either warriors, wounded, or casualties. Leave NO ONE behind.
I hope that this can all be received in love, and I pray by the Power of the Holy Spirit that God would illuminate the Truth in my own life, and in the lives of all those here, to what is truly at stake, and what is really going on here.
God Bless you guys… And Thank You for this conversation!
Thank you for getting to the spiritual root of the problem. I think we forget that we have a real enemy bent on seeking, killing, and destroying us.
I agree-you must have missed my post
Thanks for your thoughts brother. Here’s some food for thought: I can’t tell you how many hundreds of pastors over the years have emailed/called/etc me to tell me about their struggle because they were scared to tell their own pastoral staff because it wasn’t a safe place to talk about such things. Church is supposed to be that safe place to journey and talk about everything. It says something huge when hundreds from around the country tell me their own church isn’t. Don’t get me wrong, I love the church. But spiritual oppression isn’t something that just happens ‘out there’. We can fix our own stuff in our own backyard, and this whole thing will dramatically change overnight. I believe that with my whole heart.
Andrew,
Thanks for the reply. I am totally on spot with you in this regard. The church has/is doing a horrible job of creating “safe space” to share the things that are affecting us the most at our deepest cores. This is not right. It needs to change. NOW! And I also totally agree that spiritual oppression is not something that just happens “out there.” It’s happening all around us, in the church, and without. Part of this whole issue is a spiritual oppression keeping us divided, and in fear. It is a tool of the enemy to keep those who are called from being those who are chosen.
Thank you for your thoughts, and I have committed to doing what I can to be a part of the solution. (we need a transformation of heart, and action).
God Bless
I was once afraid that I was gay. I have never told anyone that. Sometimes I’m still afraid of it. But even when I was worried, I knew that God loved me and that He would help me to resist any curse I had. It seems that I “grew out of it,” and I’m ashamed to say that because of my fear, I adopted a very distant approach to gays. I ostracized that which I had almost been. Recently, I think God has been putting GBLT on my heart. I’ve been reminded that my approach should be one of love, and this video has really punctuated my thoughts. I think I’ve found the topic for my term paper.
Dean – Your transparency is truly special and I am honored to have read your boldness. Thank you so much for sharing. Muchlove brother.
Wow. Gutsy. Thanks Los and Andrew. I’m learning. I have some good friends who are practicing homosexuals. We have an unspoken rift. I don’t expect them to change their lifestyle any more than they expect me to change my Biblical views on the immorality of homosexual behavior. So, we are at a silent impasse. And I love them. But we can’t really talk to each other about what matters most. It is heartbreaking gridlock. Praying and thinking about all of this. Thanks for the discussion here. God bless you both.
Joshua- I will STRONGLY recommend that you read Andrew’s book. The unnecessary rift in your friendship BREAKS MY HEART! As a gay christian, I would be more than willing to dialogue with you about your fears, hesitations, concerns, etc. related to rekindling this friendship in a way that prioritizes LOVE over ISSUES. Sometimes, someone on the outside can help.
wow. thank you, Carlos and Andrew for jumping in and for not avoiding this discussion. we NEED to have this discussion, because it’s not enough to say, “homosexuality is a sin.” homosexuality (and gluttony, for that matter) are weekly topics of discussion in my home between me and my teenagers, because it is something that they deal with at school every day. they have so many questions about how to relate to people who have already come out as gay, to gay teachers, to friends that they think might be gay. they have lots of questions about what makes someone gay, and what should you tell a friend who struggles with that. it’s tough stuff. after searching scripture, this is where we end up: temptation isn’t sin. allowing it to grow in your heart and result in action is sin.
for some reason, we (the church) tolerate some struggles with some temptations more than others, and that is wrong. when someone struggles with certain temptations, we encourage them and love on them and tell them that we struggle with that, too. that kind of transparency can change lives. I just wish that we extended that same mercy and encouragement to those who struggle with homosexuality, instead of shunning them. I wish it was ok to say, I struggle with that, too, and here is how the Lord has enabled me to deal with this.
thank you. these discussions aren’t easy, but they are necessary. just because you don’t talk about something, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. if you don’t know anyone struggling with homosexuality, chances are your kids do!
thanks Danielle.
after reading through every single comment and reply, I was really disappointed with a lot of my fellow believers. I go to a church where I am like a lone Andrew in a sea of Bethany.
Most people want to dismiss the issue or go with tradition (ie their parent’s opinions) instead of investigating and seeing what discrepancies lie between what the Bible Actually says and what we’ve been raised to believe/interpret what it says out of our own desire.
I am so glad to know you are not just passing down accepted “truth” to your children, but are actually taking the time to figure it out.
bravo!
I agree with you but we have to be careful and not take the “thought and not acting on it” to lightly. Thinking about it to much, focusing on it and even playing out in your head will cause you to follow through. I believe you have to take those thoughts into captivity as the word of God says.
jerah, I totally agree. Matthew 5 covers the idea that dwelling on sinful thoughts are equal to the physical acts themselves. I think I meant that both “letting it grow in your heart” and “result in action” are sins. thanks for helping me clarify that.
Your friendly European, social scientist perspective here.
First, I think it’s important for you all realise that from a secular perspective, there is no justification for turning someone down for leadership based on whom they are attracted to. It’s mad. No one is (or can, for that matter) making emperical claims against someone’s ability to lead a group of people in a moral or religious endeavor based on their sexual orientation. It is fundamentally illogical. That, I understand, does not make or break what you think is right or wrong, but the culture is moving away from believing that homosexuality is wrong and the world you will be hoping to reach will increasely seeing your position as bigoted because of a lack of evidence supporting your view. My question is, is your response to that going to be, ‘So what: the Bible says-?’
Second, I wonder about the effect of trying to make the literal words of Paul fit in a contemporary perspective. Obviously this has been a problem with teaching about women, but it seems that this group of people largely doesn’t have a problem with women in leadership anymore? Maybe I’m misreading that, but that shift was, in my opinion, a larger cultural one that forced the church to re-read Paul in light of a new reality.
Anyway, it seems that for now, the bottom line is: don’t be gay in the church in America. Not much has changed.
Good job! Provocative post…I like it!
There is nothing better than constructive thinkers. Thanks for your deliniations; I feel they bring a much need persepctive boost to this conversation.
Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and I believe that God loves ALL of his children, regardless of their sexual orientation.
I am a heterosexual, I was born that way and I cannot change that no matter what. Likewise, homosexuals are also born that way and cannot change how they feel any more than I can.
THAT, dear Christians, is a FACT. It is NOT a mistake, because The Lord does not make mistakes. It simply is what it is and we will all be better served by accepting it as such.
My God is a loving God. He does not hate or discriminate among those that love Him and honor Him. He accepts all of the souls who wish to honor and love Him. My God doesn’t see the lines that society draws. Nor should He.
Corrina;
I am an alcoholic and cocaine addict (clean and sober 7 years). By your logic I should be able to drink and do drugs as much as I want because ‘God made me this way and He doesn’t make mistakes’.
Thing is, God didn’t make me this way, sin did. As we are right now, in this earth, we are not the perfect reflection of God. We are broken. We all battle sin and temptation. We’re all on paths that take us towards of away from God.
Society didn’t draw the lines of sexual sin, it’s quite clearly Scriptural.
Here’s the deal for me. We are all tempted (be it sexually, by greed, judgment etc) and we all overcome or succumb to those temptations. The point is not to live a sinless life (impossible). the point is, when we sin, to ask the Lord for forgiveness and strength to battle that sin and then continue pursuing God.
Hello and thanks Andrew.
I read a book last year (called salvation on the small screen- very funny and worth a read) by a lutheran pastor who watched 24 hours straight of TBN.
In it she talks about the need to love the other- Even if the ‘other’ is a conservative Christian.
As a lesbian I found that a really tough read. There’s a massive section of the church that I write off because of how it sees me and more importantly my relationship with my partner. A lot of the time I choose to see them as wrong or misguided ie. ‘if they really understood scripture they would agree with me’ or ‘it’s a shame that that otherwise normal person has been brain washed by the church into being a bigot’
I know it’s wrong to think of people in this way but I don’t understand their interpretation of scripture in exactly the same way they don’t understand mine.
There are no 2 sides in this. esp. with so many gay people in the church. The church doesn’t have to go anywhere to find LGBT people. We’re in the pews, on the kneelers, on the stadium seating with our hand in the air…just like everyone else.
Was chatting to a bunch of liberal Christian students on a weekend away last month and humility was something that kept coming up. We in the liberal church can be very intellectually arrogant.
Thanks for being a model of humility. We need to learn from other people again.
What a profound statement Holly “we need to learn from other people again.” It’s so profound because a big part of what it means to be Christian is to incarnationally try as best as we can to understand those not only unlike us, but who completely disagree with us – not to learn how to convert them better, but to undertake what it means to have a wholistic worldview informed by Christian prinicples. A bridge can’t be built from only one side. Thank you so much for your reminders.
I think doing the celibate thing is very difficult.
doing the “Christian thing” isn’t very easy either.
There are many people that are celibate. Many of them do it out of love for Christ. For me – it’d be very tough. That’s why we should be praying for those that are doing it.
Isaiah 56:3-5 and a whole bunch of people say otherwise. But if it’s easy for you, that’s awesome!
Actually, it is impossible unless you’ve been given the gift by God.
You may not have sexual relations, but you will have problems elsewhere in your life.
Gifts are given as the Spirit wills, not as humans will.
I can’t get past the fact that Andrew looks like the actor that played in “Rudy” and was Frodo’s friend in Lord of the Rings. Just sayin
“God doesn’t only work when we know what the outcome will be.”
“Find the person that is most unlike yourself and RELENTLESSLY PERSUE THEM!”
Those are the money quotes right there! WE need those tattooed on our minds!
Don’t test me…I’ve been known to drop some ink on myself before.
Andrew, thanks for your desire to help the Church to overcome our past failures to display the love of Christ to the LGTB community.
We truly have failed miserably, either by demonizing, or sweeping the issue under the rug.
One of the things which has troubled me is that it seems there are many who have fervently prayed, resisted and wrestled with their same-sex desires & yet have not experienced a change in those desires. So they either live in loneliness and inner turmoil, or give up and embrace homosexuality, finding acceptance in the LGTB community (ala Christian singer Ray Boltz).
While I believe that God’s pattern and original design for sexual relationships is heterosexual, expressed within marriage, it is very hard to understand why God would not answer the prayers of those who seek an orientation change.
Any thoughts on this?
John- I’m with you on this. And I also wonder this: If a person who is “uncertain” about their orientation or is bisexual finds more love and acceptance in the GLBT community than the church, then how will they ever find the redemptive love for Christ and, therefore, find the “wholeness” that allows them to figure themselves out once and for all?
I actually wrote a blog post about this question last summer. Here it is:
http://www.loveisanorientation.com/2009/why-god-doesnt-answer-prayers-2/
I would love to hear your thoughts about what I suggested.
I really struggled with my position on this “issue” a few years back, and here’s what has leaned me in the direction of tolerance:
Go back to the original post and it’s 300+ comments (or any other Gay vs. Anti-Gay post on any page on the internet or in any church). Then pull back from the argument about 3,000 feet and simply look at the color and tone of the arguments. Here is what you will see in many cases:
Anti-Gay=Judgment, finger-pointing, isolation, and hate (in the name of religion-EEK!)
Pro-Gay=Acceptance, tolerance, inclusion, and unconditional love
That did it for me. If our greatest commandment is “love”, then it should be obvious to all of us, which position is working against that commandment.
(I know that THIS post is representative of a new way of thinking and I am SO grateful about that. Thanks Andrew and Los.)
Wow. Shocked. Disbelief. Surprised.
Happy. Elated. Thankful.
Thank you, Carlos & Andrew, for this post and video message. I wish that more Christians could get this. I am a heterosexual Christian, who has many homosexual friends and family members. All of my loved ones know my stance on homosexuality; I believe that it is a legitimate thing, yes, I believe they can be born with this attraction, but like you, Andrew, I too feel that acting on said attractions create the sin. Some of my loved ones are practicing homosexuals, some are simply struggling with attractions and feelings. However, no matter their decisions, my love for them does not falter, njust as Christ’s love for me never falters, no matter how many times I fail.
I so hope that more people will take this post and ignnite conversations in our homes, churches, bible studies, and relationships. No, I do not mean initiate, I chose “ignite” as I feel this topic has been kindling inside the Christian circle for a long time, yet no one really knew how to begin the conversation. I hope that we can ignite a passion for souls, no matter their lifestyles. A soul lost is a soul lost for eternity. We are all STRUGGLING Christians: none of us is completely Christlike and never will be, as we are all human. We are all sinners, saved by His grace… His LOVE. Love, love, love…
Much love to you sister; thank you for engaging not only in this discussion, but the places of constructive tension within your everyday life. What folks don’t give people like you enough credit for is the understanding that you had two choices:
1. Easily ditch your gay family members
2. Try to live as faithfully as you can in relation to, and relationship with them centering Christ in the middle.
Brilliant choice. Thanks for being you and letting your life be an example for us.
Romans 1:21-29, NIV
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice.
1 Corinthians 6:13, NIV
“‘Food for the stomach and the stomach for food’ – but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.”
1 Corinthians 6:18-19, NIV
“Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own.”
Hebrews 13:4 (New International Version)
4Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.
AND FINALLY….
Romans 12:2, NIV
“Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.”
Whoever wrote Roman 1:21-29 has to be a complete idiot. Of course, they wrote it hundreds of years ago so I suppose they are entitled to be ignorant. But if you take it literally, it says that they became homosexual because they were worshipping idols. WRONG. Biology is what makes people gay. There are millions of kids raised in Evangelical families that never saw an idol in their life and they are gay as spades. Guess again, Romans writer. That fact that something this stupid is used to deny gay people dignity and equality just shows what a terrible influence conservative Christianity has on the world. I do, however, like the left wing of the faith.
Nick… are you serious? God, through the Holy Spirit inspired Paul (through Tertius [Rom.16:22]) to pen those words. The short of it is = God wrote those words. You’re calling God a “complete idiot”.
Dangerous place to be. I’d recommend a reconsideration of your thoughts.
BTW – an idol can be anything you put before God. It doesn’t have to necessarily be a little carved image. Anything can become an idol.
You should read the gospel of John. I think you will find it a good read.
I read through the replies here and in the other threads and am surprised that in an important conversation like this there is a lot of talk about Scripture but little use of Scripture. Of course this isn’t surprising. I’m great at talking, I suck at using the Bible.
Over the past five years I’ve been involved in a number of conversations and have done plenty of pastoral counseling with men dealing with this issue. It is a hard question. We have not done it justice in the Church Inc.
The larger question here is still unresolved, is this guy fit for leadership in the local church?
We can talk about the issues about homosexuality all day but nobody is talking about the main issue. As a pastor I am lashed to the testimony of the Scriptures in 1 Timothy and Titus about what it takes to be a leader. Honestly, if someone is coming to the pastorate with unresolved sexual identity issues, with unresolved chemical depency issues, with unresolved spiritual identity issues…they are disqualified from serving. When it comes to our non-pastoral church staffs they should be held to a similar standard. They are overseers, they are presbuteros. We need to keep our churches safe from spiritually immature people in leadership…please note I said leadership…positions. We need to keep our people safe from spiritually immature people.
We had a hard decision a couple of years ago. One of our worship leaders was a single guy who was sleeping with several girls in our 20somethings ministry. We had to fire him. We believe in sexual purity period. The only, we believe, authentic sexual expression that the Scriptures validate is that between a married man and a woman. All else fails. We had to fire this guy because he was not ready to lead.
Leading in a church is an important role. It doesn’t matter if you are a secretary, graphics designer, janitor, director, activities director, or pastoral staff…you fall under the qualifications for leadership in 1 Timothy and Titus. In this instance the pastor was, imho, justified for asking the person to leave.
I don’t know the situation. I don’t. But if it was the church where I get to serve, this guy would have gotten time for a sabbatical, then we would have paid for his counseling, and given him time to work through this. At the end of the day though, we believe same-sex attraction is an unbiblical, sinful desire that needs to be reconciled at the foot of the Cross. Roms 1:24-31; 1 Corinthians 5:1-8; 6:9-11; 1 Timothy 1:8-11; Jude 7.
Saying the having a same sex attraction but not acting on it isn’t sin seems to be a backdoor way out. Matthew 5:27-30; 1 Corinthians 10:13; Hebrews 3:12-14; James 1:12-18 indicate sinfulness isn’t about action it is about heart condition.
Thanks for the convo.
Peace, love, and keep Jesus First
PreachinJesus
Amen!!!!!!!! I’m going to quote that, in case people didn’t catch it:
“Saying the having a same sex attraction but not acting on it isn’t sin seems to be a backdoor way out. Matthew 5:27-30; 1 Corinthians 10:13; Hebrews 3:12-14; James 1:12-18 indicate sinfulness isn’t about action it is about heart condition.”
AMEN AMEN AMEN.
But Bob, in Andrew’s video, wasn’t sleeping with men. He had committed to be celibate since he did believe, as you do, that the only “authentic sexual expression that the Scriptures validate is that between a married man and a woman.” So why did he have to be fired?
I’m simultaneously encouraged and dismayed and completely overwhelmed by the comments here. I come at this from the perspective of a lay leader (and Bible College & Seminary graduate to boot) who left before being thrown of a non-denominational church for experiencing same-sex attraction. I’ve been in Bob’s shoes. I left because I experienced, albeit secondhand, the wrath and judgment of some church folk who were trying to condemn people into the kingdom. Which doesn’t ever work by the way. After a church board member took over an adult forum on sexuality in order to literally shout Leviticus 18 over anyone else attempting to have a conversation in the room (the bullhorn thing) I figured out that church wasn’t exactly a safe space for me. Not one of the church pastors in the room did anything to stop him.
Today I’ve been contemplating not just church leaders, but the everyday people in the pews who sit under you as you divide and communicate the word of truth. Andrew and I live in the same neighborhood, and we both see and know all too well the devastation that current church teaching has brought to the lives of so many gay people. Among my closest friends I count graduates of Moody, Wheaton College, Olivet Nazarene, etc. The details of our stories may differ, but the common threads of rejection, condemnation, and judgment have impacted all of us. We need to move beyond “gay people, you’re just not welcome here.”
The Marin foundation did a survey that found that 85% of the people who responded said that they had been actively involved in the life of a church. Of that group, 70% said that there was nothing–NOTHING–that could ever be done that would make them want to join a church again.
I implore you as church leaders to remember that people with same sex attractions are still PEOPLE, individuals that God loves deeply. And that of faith, hope, and love, the greatest of these still is LOVE. I hope that you will relentlessly persue a gay person or two in order to get to know them, and to do more listening than counseling. I encourage you to read Andrew’s book and to try to have the kinds of elevated conversations that he talks about. Let’s keep the conversation going, in meekness, humility, and grace.
Love to you all…
I’m a Worship Pastor.
I’m also a smoker.
Aside from the fact that my disgusting little habit is making my singing voice unreliable, should I be fired for my sin of smoking? Should I not define myself as a ’smoker’, but rather a ‘person who struggles with the temptation to smoke’? I don’t posess any solid answer to this discussion, and I fear adding my opinion is merely giving myself a chance to digest and wrestle with my own internal fight with this subject. But here I go anyway…
I agree with Andrew, that the church has done a severely poor job in reaching out with Jesus’ Grace and hope to the gay community. I agree with Kyle, that making concession for blatant, unrepentant sin is unScriptural and inviting compromise (potentially) in our own lives.
Equating a particular type of sin to another is a flawed perspective anyway, according to Romans 3:23. If my body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and I pollute it via Marlboro, McDonalds, or Masturbation, it makes no difference. I’m guilty of every ounce of the Law if I trespass in a single facet of it.
Romans 8 is a great encouragement to me. Especially when Paul talks about we who (present-tense) are walking according to the Spirit. Not in self-justification, not in pride or flippant ‘covered by Grace, so it’s all good’ hedonism… but in humility, because of what Jesus has done to redeem me, I can (and do, whether or not I feel it) walk according to the Spirit. The evidence is in how God breaks me from the chains of sin- porn addiction, homosexual desires, self-pollution via cigarettes, hatred in my heart for another person… all of it dies eventually. I walk with Him, best as I am able, and He changes me. Always.
People who haven’t met Jesus yet are defined by their sins. My boss is a philanderer. He knows I’m a believer, so makes his crude jokes and referrences and then ‘apologizes’ and blames it on his member… He’s a slave to his sin and he knows it. He even half-jokingly acknowledges it. But this ‘Bob’ guy admits his fight, and is fired as a result. I could come to my pastor and admit my struggle against porn (which I do), and his heart is restoration and prayer and accountability. But I don’t envy him his position- as leadership is held to a higher standard (James 3:1).
Fat pastor DID have an opportunity to disciple and pray and come alongside and give God room to grow them both through the tension suddenly exposed… but he failed to step up. But I don’t know THAT guy’s heart, either, so who am I (we) to make such snap judgments? I think Carlos’ response to ‘Bob’ was spot-on. Jesus loved until it hurt, and then until it killed Him.
The pastor could have been ruled by the fear of men. He could have perceived the potential outcry from his congregation if it were ever exposed that he let someone struggling with homosexuality remain in a position of leadership. He could also have been Divinely directed to fire Bob. Maybe neither is true and he just made the decision he felt he had to, and now it’s up to God to turn Joseph’s being sold into slavery into a moment of redemption in Egypt. Who knows. Neither party is allowed to let bitterness and resentment and self-justification enter into their hearts. Scripture is pretty damn clear on that. From the tone of Bob’s question to Los that started this whole dialogue, he may be in the midst of battling those things. His heart is hurt, and sounds like it wants to lash back at the pastor for his perception of the others’ gluttony.
Bob can’t let that bitterness take root. Los is right, Bob (if you’re reading this). Jesus loved people simply because they existed, not to get them into His club. It probably sounds trite to say ‘take the high road’, but you’ve gotta. I’ve been slandered, lied about, exposed for my hidden sins, taken advantage of, and raped by a cop when I was a 9 year old boy. Jesus + Forgiveness = Deep Healing… the only kind that is completely guaranteed.
Matthew 5:16 – “In the same way, let your good deeds shine out for all to see, so that everyone will praise your heavenly Father.”
D,
I’m late to the party.
But that was awesome. Thank you.
Coming from the perspective of a staff member at a church (Worship Leader) and a volunteer in the Senior and Junior High youth groups…thats right, I spend most of my time at church…
I have personal relationships with our pastors and know that they sin and struggle with temptations of sin on a regular basis just as all of us do. The difference between pastors/church staff and other believers is that church leader must avoid acting on sin regardless of desire or nature.
The difference comes in the actions. No pastor will be broken of their temptation to sin. We all live within a world that has been contaminated with sin. Life is a daily trudge through temptation with Jesus at our side. ONLY through HIS help are we able to avoid the actions that temptation leads us to.
Regardless of the sin, engaging in a homosexual relationship, stealing a pack of gum from 7-11, or lusting after women that you see in the apple store, we are called (and church leadership is expected) to abstain from participating.
To me there is a difference between the action and the desire. Engaging regularly in the action of sinning would make it difficult or impossible for a pastor or staff member to lead a church toward our God.
A person that trudges through the temptation with Jesus at their side is as qualified as any of us to lead.
I read quite a few of the comments and then decided to stop that. Too aggravating. Whatever.
Here’s my thoughts. I keep reading “Why identify as “gay” if he’s going to be celibate?” Maybe he’s reaching out to ministerial peers to help with this issue? Maybe seeking ministerial support would be helpful for him to remain celibate? God forbid that he turn to the church for honest support or encouragement.
I feel bad for Bob. He reached out with honesty and for support and he got the boot. Maybe in the long run he’ll be better off away from that particular church community.
I’m a gay Christian. I’m quite comfortably reconciled with my faith and my sexuality. My lifestyle is nothing like that described or imagined by most Christian leaders. I’m a married professional with a home, two sons, two dogs, and a cat. My family and I have found a church home where this isn’t an issue. Our family is nurtured and supported, just like any other family. There’s no drama or semantic war over “attraction vs. lust” towards each other, just like there’s no such debate where it comes to the het married couples here. We’re just a family.
I don’t know what I have to add to this discussion (where I truly understand that I’m in the minority here), but to offer support to Bob to find a Christian community that will offer him encouragement and support, whether he remain celibate or even builds his own family. Peace, Bob.
<3
As a gay Christian many of these comments make me feel like my voice is worthless. I’m sad because Andrew’s video was very encouraging to me, and yet I am not sure I see a willingness to try and embrace people who look different than ourselves.
Andrew, I really liked your video but I think one practical thing you left out was ideas on how to engage LGBT people in love. My two cents is this: ask us our stories. Ask us our stories before you tell us what you think about sin or what the Bible says. Ask us our stories and listen to us as we tell them. I wholeheartedly promise to listen to your story, to how you got to be where you are in your life if you will listen to mine. Too many times I have been dismissed by my Christian brothers and sisters because of my affectional orientation and it is incredibly disheartening.
I am willing to partake in this conversation (exploring what the Bible says, sexual hamartiology, learning to love in the midst of difference) but only once I feel that my voice matters and is respected, like it was before I came out.
Thank you for being willing to take part!
Please share your story and help us learn to love despite any differences we may see.
Jonathan – My work, my book and my blog (www.loveisanorientation.com) are filled with stories. I try so hard with a lot of intentionality to give dignity to each party involved in this culture war/debate/Kingdom opporunities. In the video I was asked to try and answer a question. But in my work it goes so much further than an overivew 10 minute thing. In fact, Jon Trouten above has guest posted and they are some of the most read posts I’ve had. Thank you for being willing to engage, and there is a 7-day a week dialogue about faith, sexuality and culture happening on my blog. Still read this blog!, but if you want to dive deeper into a variety of issues surrounding sexuality, my community is here for you.
Andrew-I’ve been reading his stuff there and here. Do you have an RSS comment feed for your blog? I bet it’d cooperate better than the one I have for Ragamuffin soul because there are so few comments. Google Reader sadly only gets roughly 1 in 20 comment posts from here on the RSS feed despite it appearing to have them all in the actual feed.
Jon Trouten-I am truly interested in hearing your story, wherever and however you may choose to share it. You may already have over at Andrew’s blog somewhere that I missed. I’ve only been following his blog closely for about 6months, I’d followed it off and on before but when I finally found his RSS feed I at least got the posts on a daily basis. I don’t often see many comments so I suspect they’re after I’ve already come along. Thank you for being willing to share your heart with people in hopes that we will learn from the mistakes of others and our own and grow to be more loving individuals.
Jonathan A: For whatever reason this reply keeps appearing above your 3/05/10/2:03 PM response, so hopefully this doesn’t come out too confusing. I have a blog (of course, these days who doesn’t???) at jontrouten.blogspot.com. Sometimes I blog about myself and my family, other times I blog about local news or my thoughts/outrages re: current events. Check it out if you want and feel free to comment, even if you don’t agree with my thoughts. Just know that I might respond back!
You can get the RSS feed at the top right hand corner of my blog.
Andrew, that’s just your posts, not the comments, its what I’m using now. Is there a comment feed?
oooooo, I have absolutely no idea. I am what you call “not technologically advanced.” Drat!
Jonathan,
Thank you for your words. I know a Rabbi who said in regards to gays and lesbians, “when we don’t know [any gays or lesbians] we demonize and dehumanize, yet when we do know we have a harder time demonizing and dehumanizing.”
I, along with Andrew, are working for the re-humanization of the LGBT community. One way in which we do that is by listening to stories; for your story and other people’s stories change my own.
“No one ever converted to Christianity because they lost the argument” (P. Yancey) The reason is a self-sacrificial love seen through Christ, embodied by His followers. That is what I want to see. Love and mercy trump judgment (Js 2)
Johnathan thanks for your honesty. I choose to love you out loud and openly just as Jesus would have if he were here in the flesh and how he does love you in the spirit. Know that there are many Christians who are God-fearing and bible-believing that will love you for where you are and choose to show you grace. Christ came to die for all people and not just a select few. Much love man! There are many people loving you and the whole LGBT community!!!
I, like many other people, have sat back and watched comment after comment be made since yesterday, however, i did read all of them. the consequence of sitting here and reading them all: a broken heart. not the heart broken by the Spirit for transformation but a heart broken by hatred so deeply imbedded that many are not even aware it exists. i whole heartedly reiterate jon trouten and jonathan edmund’s comments (and thank you Andrew for sharing so many people’s lives with us on your blog).
with that being said, i’d like to respond to quite a few comments that have been made, but i’m not sure who made them.
* during the conversation about Christ identifying himself as “gay” because he has been tempted in every way… Christ doesn’t identify himself in any way. The only comment that could be taken as orientation is that he loves the Church like the bridegroom loves the bride. However since the church is made up of males as well, this is not a sexual orientation comment. moreover, orientation wasn’t understood in biblical times as it is now, in fact there is no word for homosexual in neither greek nor hebrew. the closest word we have is eunuch. until the last 100 years homosexuality was assumed to JUST be an act out of purely sexual desires. so when we discuss the sin that is homosexuality in regards to “Bob” we must look at it from a biblically relevant POV, his orientation matters not when we discuss sin, his actions are what matter.
* one woman commented on how people twist the Word to support or disprove certain things… the Word as we know it today is in itself and interpretation of ancient writings that were not written in english. while God has promised to keep and preserve his word no one can deny that there are discrepancies between the translations and even other ancient writings written before the gospels around the time of paul’s letters. everything is an interpretation, we all bring our own background and understanding of life to everything we do. to say that two people will ever read the Word and believe EXACTLY the same things is ridiculous. this is where the Holy Spirit comes in, we must be convicted in our hearts, Christ and the Holy Spirit loosen and bind as the rabbis did in the jewish culture and for one person to say they understand anything %100 is a lie. moreover, if nothing has ever been interpreted differently or deemed culturally irrelevant then why do we as americans eat blood, divorce, not own slaves, or have women in any position of power in the Church?
* i believe the same person also said something about Sodom being destroyed for a reason. they hinted that it was destroyed due to homosexuality. i disagree and the Bible as it reads states quite the contrary. Sodom was destroyed because of its inhospitality (show by the desire to rape outsiders that came in), they had wealth that they did not want to share with outsiders, thus they would publicly humiliate them by raping them. in jewish law if someone came to your door you were to feed them and provide for them, not turn them away. Sodom would not only turn them away but defile them by raping them. all the gay men i know would not accept two virgin women as an equal trade off if they wanted to have sex with someone. the sin was therefor rape and inhospitality. any claim that there sin was homosexuality has done nothing but harm the GLBT community and the churches witness to the GLBT community.
Andrew, thank you so much for giving us a voice in a conversation that is so relevant to the Church. thank you for speaking out on our behalf and for choosing love when it has become acceptable to ignore or hate. You are influencing the Kingdom more than you will understand until all good things have been revealed.
Love in Him,
alex
Preach, Alex. Preach.
‘You’re welcome’ doesn’t seem to do enough justice. I would rather be doing nothing other than what the Lord continues to lay before me. It is an exciting and extremely scary time building these bridges. Just keepin’ on keepin’ on.
I don’t really have anything to add to the conversation. But I wanted to say thank you, Andrew, for speaking out. There may be haters out there (and here, evidently), but there are a lot of us that think what you are doing is right and good and Godly. I’m not American but I did spend a few years in the States. From what I saw/heard about from gay friends, your message of love above all else needs to be heard. I pray that many will hear your voice, crying in the wilderness of evangelicalism, hear the Jesus behind the words, calling us to LOVE ONE ANOTHER and lay down our lives that we all may be brought to our knees in love for “the other” – on both sides.
wow…. my brain is a little fried from reading all of the comments. i have been lurking, but like many, feel compelled to speak out.
for as long as i can remember, the church (as a whole) has gotten a bad rap. some of it is entirely justified. seems like the majority of the bad stuff you hear about are because of some extremist, nut case.
2 things:
1. we have made things SO complicated. Jesus made it SO simple. love God. love others.
– when you do that, you truly invest in other people and their story.
2. before anybody can get on the judgement train, EVERYBODY needs to have AGREED upon the same rules. without that, it’s just a bunch of barking in either direction (this may be different in Bob’s case – and terribly sorry if it is the case).
judging people FIRST, does the Kingdom a great dis-service. how can anyone hear the good news about God’s love for us if we are busy barking at people and pointing out their sin?
i choose to love God. love others. invest…
Nathan
…and Andrew, thanks for building bridges. we need more bridge builders in the Kingdom – gay, straight, purple, yellow, fat, skinny.
Blessings!
Nathan- I love that you said, “judging people FIRST, does the Kingdom a great dis-service. how can anyone hear the good news about God’s love for us if we are busy barking at people and pointing out their sin?”
i have a great quote on my wall from mother teresa that reminds me this. it professes, “If you judge people, you have no time to love them.”
cheers to loving God and loving others.
thanks! “Momma T” was the best at that. invest in people. don’t try to change them – let God produce ANY life change.
I am very glad to see that people that have truly been hated by the church are now being loved. I think that some label people who struggle with homosexuality as bad or even scarry. I have talked to my friends about this and I am constantly hearing that they are scared of homosexuals. This young generation have seen homosexuals as criminals
So Andrew is there any way we as christians can over come this fear of having homosexuals as friends?
I keep reading the words “hate” and “haters”a lot. Am I a hater because I disagree with Marin? Am I a hater because I think the Bible is clear that homosexuality IS sexual immorality, and that it’s a sin?
I’m confused. I have a few gay friends. They know where I stand and I know where they stand. And we can get along. But it doesn’t change the fact that the Bible is INCREDIBLY clear on the matter.
I guess my big concern is that some people think that God created people with same-sex attraction. Any biblical backing on that one?
no argument about scripture references, but i would say if people get caught up in trying to be right or forcing their interpretation – we leave no room for love.
the words in RED say to love God and love others – nothing about judging.
I think the Bible is INCREDIBLY clear about loving God with all our hearts minds and souls and loving others with everything we have. Oh yeah and that part about loving our enemies. Being agents of peace, justice, and mercy. I totally respect your position, but I wonder how “making your position clear” brings your brother/sister closer to the Christ you want them to see in you? It doesn’t make you a hater, but…lovingly…coming up to me and saying that the Bible is “incredibly clear”…case closed… that’s kind of a conversation ender.
Safe spaces, y’all
David,
sorry – i may not have been clear. you will get no argument from me on the scripture references. the irony of what i am saying – even now – is that we get so caught up in trying to make our “point” that we miss THE point.
we, as the mainstream church, have a tendency to alienate anyone who is an “outsider”. totally contrary to the point of the whole Gospel.
Elgin-
i don’t think that is hate. however i do think treating me any different than you would treat one of your friends is hate. maybe not hate on the same level as Hitler but hate none the less. if i am refused from a church for my orientation that is not out of love. that is out of fear that something i’m doing is wrong and could hurt others. if someone tells me i cannot work with kids because i’m gay that is hate. if i’m told that i cannot marry outside the church when it is a civil liberty given to everyone else in our nation, that is hate. when i am called a “fag” or a “dyke” or any other slur, that is hate.when someone uses the word “gay” as a synonym for stupid or dumb or boring, that’s hate. when someone says ‘no homo’ after anything for fear of sounding gay or to make a joke, that is hate. when i have to fear for my life as i walk down the street holding my girlfriends hand, that is hate. when someone stares and whispers about me as i walk past, that is hate. when someone holds a stereotype and does not see that this isn’t always the case, that is hate.
do i think you hate? from what i read i don’t see hate. but does that mean it doesn’t exist? not at all. i’ve never said that all Christians hate members of the LGBT community, because being a Christian would disprove that blanket statement. however when lies are tossed around and personal shots are taken, or even when blanket statements are made hate is present.
having gay friends, siblings, parents, distant relatives, or neighbors doesn’t automatically mean that the person cannot show orientation based hate. my mom is my best friend and loves me more than anything, but she has some pretty hateful beliefs about my life and other LGBT members. does this mean that she is a bad person or that i don’t love her? never, but it does mean that she ostracizes many people who she is called to love and has dropped the ball when it comes to her duty to love as he first loved us.
i hope this explains, at least, where i was coming from.
alex
These posts are quite intriguing for me and some of my openly gay friends who are reading these posts – we must all remember that we are all being watched at all times by the world because they want to see if the God of the Christians is worth anything to them. They often judge that by looking at us.
I am an openly overweight food lover who deals with depression and anxiety. I stuggle with pride and gossiping on a regular basis. I have a hard time trusting God and the Church. I struggle with porn, acting out sexually with others and some same-sex attractions. I am judgmental of many people and for many un-Christlike reasons. I am not a good steward of my talents and money. I am a sinner. But I am a “saved-by-grace-born-again-baptized-in-forgiveness-child-of-the-one-and-only-true-Lord-the-lover-of-my-soul-who-has-not-gained-the-full-grasp-of-perfection-here-on-this-earth” kind of guy as well.
Many of my struggles are self-inflicted and many are not. Someone else’s sin bumped into me as a child and I was molested. Unfortunately that set me off on a terribly confusing and painful path away from the Church and God. My abuser was a leader in the Church. I attempted to come back to the Church and say that I am struggling and I know that God has better for me but I was shunned as a teenager. It wasn’t until college when some “true Godly men” decided to love me no matter what my life looked like did God ever gain access back into my heart and then into my life. Had those men chosen to judge me for what I had done or was doing and had decided to not minister to me – I would probably still be in that lifestyle of drugs, sex, pride, etc. or even worse – dead. Praise Jesus that they decided to let Jesus pour out of them and all over me. Their decisions to love me “in spite of me” and to love me because Christ first loved me that I am now a man experiencing healing and reuniting with the Lord that protected me through every step of my journey.
I am in love with my Savior – but still my flesh is attached to me and it wages a war against me daily. Satan seeks to steal, kill and destroy.
One person earlier posted that if you wanted to reach people listen to their stories. What a powerful statement – I would go so far to say that Christ was probably way more interested in a person’s story than their actions. HE knows that conquering their story is really his way into redeeming them and changing their actions (even if only a bit and over time because none of our actions will be fully mastered in this life). Go and listen to the stories of people in the LGBT community and you will hear a lot of common elements – abuse, neglect, being hurt by the Church and Christians, being abandoned and left to fend for themselves, being hated and mocked. BUt above all you will hear their desire to be connected to something bigger than themselves and to find love and acceptance. They may state in a way that they say they are wanting that from humans (which they do and we all do) but I think you will hear the undertone of wanting to be connected to Jesus and his forgiveness.
I think one point that I have not seen in these posts that all of the things listed as sins (homosexuality, hatred, drugs, pride, gluttony, gossip, lying, etc.) are all really symptoms of something deeper – the true sin of all men – a lack of full faith and trust and belief in the Lord. All of our sins are merely each of our responses to pain and separation from God (whether we realize it or not) – our sin is our attempt to apply medicine to our hurting wounds. None of these medicines work but we try them anyways.
We all have a “hole” in ourselves that is meant for God to fill – our attempts to fill it with anything else leads to addiction, to sin. I think I can safely say that every human to ever live (except Jesus) is guilty of trying to fill our “hole” with something other than Christ. How many of us have encountered a true life/spiritual change by being ridiculed, hated, mocked into that change? True life change at a heart level come from love and grace. So if we want to reach anyone we must love them and show them grace. Every action is an overflow of the person’s heart. Every action does not flow from the doing or not doing of some action (or sin). HEART CHANGE is the goal.
We want a heart in bad standing with God to be placed into right standing (be justified) with God. Straights, gays, bisexuals, lesbians, transsexuals, transgenders and any other type of person needs a heart change first and foremost. But without meeting them where they are and loving them there first their hearts with likely never be reached. Would it be better to have loved them where they are and introduced them to Christ or to have gotten to state our case against them and how God hates their sin and that they should repent? Both methods used are motivated by the hope that the person would enter a relationship with Christ – but one of the methods will be way more effective.
God is a just God and he must have a just verdict when it comes to each of us. The wages of sin is death – therefore for our sin our death is required in order for God to reach a just verdit – thankfully – Christ stepped down from heaven to step into our place and die for us and all of our sins. His death changed the game for all of us.
Our actions no longer make us more or less loved by God. He sees Christ when he looks at us. We are justified, in right standing with him.
All this to say – God is not shocked by our humanity – he made us human. I am not saying that he does not want better for us than what we so often choose for ourselves (food, sex, porn, pride, etc). However, we don’t have to be or do anything beyond accepting Christ to receive the gift of his ongoing love and grace. However, someone in connection with the everflowing source of this love and grace will see changes in their life and their actions. However, Paul in scripture states that we are yet still trapped in the flesh, the stinking corpse of sin and that it continues to rage war within us and others.
I don’t think we (Christians – whether you identify as gay or straight) were all commissioned to reach people and change their actions to conform to the perfection presented in Christ. Weren’t we all commissioned to spread the good news, the hope, of Christ and his saving grace? The good news is that yet while we were still sinners Christ died for us. So he died for the glutton of a boss, he died for the worship leader struggling with homosexuality that was fired, he died for the openly gay man or woman, he died for the gay Christians, he died for the Muslim, he died for me, he died for you.
How about we all quit worrying about peoples actions and worry about their hearts? Anyone with me? I mean come on all of us that are Christians are only Christians because someone was more concerned with our hearts than our actions!
Ok – so this has been long and probably more written for me to process my own thoughts but hopefully someone else will get something out of this too. I know I have. And none of this that I have written is to say that someone living openly and rebellious in sin should remain in a position of power. They shouldn’t. But living openly and rebellious in sin is much different than struggling with sin. For whether you want to realize it – all of us, as long as we are in the flesh, are, will be, struggling with sin daily.
Thanks for presenting this topis Los. Thanks again Andrew for your work and perspective. I appreciate that you are taking Jesus out of the church buildings and into the hearts of men and women of all walks.
Aaron,
YOU are the reason why God invented the internet.
Thank you for sharing your heart and God’s love.
Andrew,
I was knocked out of my safe world by your book.
I am still struggling with how to love gays better, but I know your ministry is only possible because you are willing to listen to these conversations EVERY SINGLE STINKIN’ DAY…
And continue to respond in patience and love.
I read MLK’s Letter from the Birmingham Jail today because of you.
Thanks for living in the tension.
Wow…unbelievable. I am taken back right now. Seriously. Your words me so much to me, and I will treasure them as we all press on in this bridge building work. Much love!
Thank you from the bottom of my heart, Carlos, for being brave and opening this discussion. God has changed me from a very opinionated woman, on this issue, to one with a very soft heart toward those who are attracted to the same sex. I have walked a long journey with a precious son. I no longer have pat answers. I just love my son, and I know his heart. I agree with the one above who said, “Listen to our stories.”
Hey Los. Can we have a ‘light’ topic next week?
Elgin…
I, too have struggled with whether or not God created people with a same-sex attraction. I am pretty sure though if the Bible clearly said as much either way that we would have heard about it by now. After all, what a powerful argument could be made by either side if such a proclamation existed.
Having said that, reading in Psalm 51 David says he was sinful since birth… surely that leaves us with numerous sinful possibilities… so if one finds homosexual attractions to be sinful and we were born sinful, then surely the possibility is there that people are born with this sin capability from birth.
Personally, I think that while it is certainly potentially dangerous, there Is a distinction between attraction and lustful desire… As such, it would stand to reason that being attracted to the same sex (the very definition of homosexual) is not sin, but rather any lustful desires and obviously any sexual actions based on those desires.
Theoretically, I suppose temptation without a willing host is harmless. But we aren’t optimum people and as such, I don’t know if it’s smart to live with such a narrow possibility for success. I suppose that’s where/why the whole ‘fleeing’ part comes in.
Does anyone have any helpful thoughts?
without a doubt this is the conversation the church will be having for the next 20-30 years. so while I am not thrilled about it being on a blog board….I am glad it’s happening. let’s get it off the computer screen and into the lives of our brothers and sisters in Christ.
There is a lot of advice to homosexuals on this blog post. This even includes advice on how to self-title–as if denial of the classification makes it easier with which to deal.
What I don’t see is a lot of serious self examination based upon the clear words of Paul in 1 Corinthians:
“But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn” (1 Corinthians 7:8-9 NASB).
No one should enter into marriage. If you lack the gift to do that, marry.
This is the same type of allowance permitted in Jewish law that allowed divorce, even though that wasn’t the plan–a point that Jesus made clear.
It takes a lot of hubris for a straight person in marriage, or with the opportunity for marriage, to tell a gay person, “God loves you; don’t have sexual relations.”
Job had friends that gave the same type of advice.
If heterosexuals can’t remain celebate–the preferred state in scripture–without a specific gift of the Spirit, what makes anyone think a homosexual can without the very same gift?
The gifts of the Spirit are given as the Spirit wills.
I’d like to try and offer something practical with regard to the Attraction vs Lust question.
The way I understand it is like this:
When I’m attracted to someone or something it is merely an APPRECIATION or ADMIRATION of Its/His/Her beauty, excellence, strength, etc.
Much like when you see a Ferrari or a Bentley. They are crafted with amazing attention to detail at every point of the process. And they are very appealing to the eye. But that admiration should not drive you to spend your savings or take out a loan to buy one. Even a test drive would be hard to resist for some
Everyone has attractions. What you do with them in your heart, soul and mind is what matters to God.
Matthew 22:37- “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.”
Loving God & everyone alone does not get you to heaven. The Bible is very clear about that. Why is it that there are so many people on this blog that think that’s so? Those are the two GREATEST commandments, but not the two ONLY.
I feel like it’s almost as if people are throwing out the rest of the Word of God, and embracing ONLY love.
2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”
Let me preface by saying that I am the “former Lesbian” that Kyle referred to in his earlier post. And, although I am not as eloquent as Kyle, or many of the other writers who have left their comments, I do feel compelled to offer a bit of my perspective on this subject.
My personal story is too lengthy for this forum. I simply cannot just write a few lines to convey the miraculous work that the Lord has done in my life. But, plain and simply….I was born gay. I lived in and out of homosexuality all of my life….even as a child. But, when I surrendered to Christ, all of that changed. I did not “overcome” my homosexuality….it was washed away by the blood of the cross. When I gave my life to Jesus, I did not ask to have my homosexuality taken from me. I beieved that being gay was “just who I am” and that I would have to find a way to deal with it. I even thought that I would have to find a “gay church” so that I could be in fellowship with Christ, and with other Christians, who would understand who I was. In retrospect, I didn’t even realize that God COULD change me. But, He did. My faith was pure in a naive sort of way; it had not been tainted with variances on words such as “desire” or “attraction”. My surrender was complete – not just a promise to attend church every Sunday, or to stay away from the gay bars, or to abstain from homosexual activity. But, I was broken, and humbled at the foot of the cross. In that humility – in that vulnerability, I was able to come before Jesus, open and bare, and let Him do what He does so well-transform lives.
I am not trying to imply that anyone who struggles with their sin of homosexuality hasn’t totally surrendered to God. I don’t pretend to know why God delivers us from one sin but allows us to struggle with another. But, I DO believe that God was to be glorified through the work He had done in my life. Had He allowed me to to continue to beieve the lie that I was Christian Lesbian, it would not have fulfilled His perfect will. I had often wondered why He stripped me of those desires – why me and not someone else – why didn’t He allow me to “suffer” like so many other Gays and Lesbians in the church? I believe that is merely not His perfect will.
Yes, I believe many people are born gay. I was one of them. However, I do not believe that it is “ok” to be gay as long as you’re celibate. This just seems like a contradiction of being born again, to me. And, I know from first-hand experience that God DOES change minds, hearts, desires, bodies, and wills to conform to His own. It is only by our own limitations that we set on God that we do not see His will perfected. When those limitations are set in place, we not only grieve the Holy Spirit, but we do not position ourselves to accept the fullness of God’s glory in our lives.
I’m encouraged by all of the discussion on this topic. I pray we all seek Christ’s example as we reach out and serve the Gay community.
What an awesome story. Thank you for sharing it.
Andrew, While I don’t agree 100% with everything that you say, I think what you are doing is very courageous. You had to of know the kind of resistance that you would face when bringing this very touchy subject front and center to a community that really is not sure on how to handle it. You are the kind of pioneer that Paul spoke of. However let me offer you some advice. Focus less on trying to convince the church community that homosexuality is or is not a sin. They type of sin is irrelevant. (Romans 5:12 – Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned) We could spend the rest of our lives arguing about what is a sin and what is not. When we all agree that everyone has sinned. It is not our job to classify the sinners, our job is to love them, just as Christ loves us. So Andrew focus more on the fact that there are people out there that need to be loved. Encourage us to put down our stones and open our arms to them.
Andrew- If same sex attraction isn’t sin, and only the acting on it is, then would you consider an attraction to toddlers a sin? Animals? Where do you draw the line, or is there none? Im really curious about this.
It always comes back to bestiality and pedophilia, doesn’t it?
My whole life I’ve thought that conservative Christians were the most intellectually challenged people I have ever met. And this dialogue is a perfect example of why. People rarely consider that what the Bible is saying about gay people is totally ridiculous and based on ignorance. Perfect example: the homophobic rants in Romans. People are gay because they worship idols? Whoever wrote that was looking at pagan cultures and saw that they had sodomy galore and idols, and illogically put the two together. With a modern, scientific understanding of sexual and gender variance, we know that it is just a little quirk of nature like red hair or left-handedness. (By the way, left-handed people were persecuted for their difference, but now we know the scientific basis of it. Nobody suggests that they are sinners, in league with the devil, in need of reparative therapy, etc.). That’s why there are huge numbers of gay kids coming from Evangelical conservative homes who have never seen an idol in their life– because worshipping idols has nothing to do with gayness. Yet they live tortured lives because of these intellectually backward teachings in the Bible.
Or take faith healing: we know that every time we scientifically study Christian faith healers they are frauds. Parents read the Bible and pray for their kids to be healed and they die before there eyes, believing right up until the moment of death that Jesus was going to heal their kids. (We just put two parents in prison for this in Wisconsin.) It’s all the same thing– the people who wrote the Bible didn’t have a scientific understanding of health and healing, homosexuality– really, anything. And why should they considering when they lived? Why should we put so much stock in what they said? The answer to that question is fundamentalism, a literal reading of the scriptures, the-Bible-is-always-right, etc. All are based on ignorance of the history of religion, the history of scriptures, the history of language, etc. When you have a scholarly understanding, you know that fundamentalism is a poor way to live and judge people. And if you say (or if you say the Bible says) that gay people are sinners if they have sex in gay relationships, you are judging them wethor you admit it or not. Personally, I’m not concerned wethor or not people make judgements or not, I’m concerned about wethor they make good judgments or bad judgments. Conservative Christians have, historically, made the worst judgments of any group I have witnessed. That’s why they had to apologize for supporting institutional racism 40 years after the civil rights movement. Now they are discovering environmentalism, 40 years after the movement really go going. They still don’t get equality for women or gays. They are always decades behind the progressives. But really, conservatives in any religion are just as bad. I studied world religions in college and that was the conclusion I came to– the conservative fundamentalists in every religion are always spouting on about “tradition” while support the cruelest (racist, sexist, classist, homophobic) policies imaginable, and I definitely consider telling an entire population of people (in this case, homosexuals) to be celibate and live without romantic love to be an act of cruelty which justifies them leaving the conservative church just as much as witch burnings, sexism, and segregation did.
That’s why I’m interested in the progressives, both religious and secular, because they are on the cutting edge of social change and equality, while conservatives are usually the human right abusers, and doing it in the name of “tradition.” I know there are exceptions to this rule, but they are rare.
Andrew’s video seems to be more of the same– gays who fall in love and have sex are sinners, that’s the traditional view of scripture (no matter how ignorant those traditions are), Psychologists and psychiatrists almost unanimously believe that all scientific evidence shows that conservative Christian interaction, including ex-gay “therapy”, with gay people almost always leads to psychological harm to gay people. Fight fundamentalism, my gay brethren, and spend your whole life tearing down its wall of lies.
Nick, it doesn’t sound like you’re very open minded. In fact, the same bigotry you claim conservative Christians have, you have towards conservative Christians (basically calling us stupid). I hope you can find a way drop your hatred for conservative Christians and learn to love and respect those who disagree with you.
I reiterate…for the last time.
2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”
Thanks for bringing this subject to light.
I’m a Christian. I’m 28 and I’ve been struggling with same-sex attractions for years. I’ve led double-lives living a straight and gay lifestyle. Someone commented earlier about listening to gay stories, so listen up.
I fought this battle for so many years. Denying my attraction as hard as much as I could throughout high school. Went to college and explored both lifestyles (clubbing, partying, making out). God protected me and helped fight my urges, so I’m still a virgin (women or men). Post-college, my faith grew stronger and I have stayed away from the gay lifestyle even though that felt more accepting.
BTW, as someone mentioned earlier, gay doesn’t mean sex.
I had met so many “gay” Christians and we dialogue about our struggles all the time. We can’t seem to do that at church and not feel judged or have an open door policy. So I’m glad this is on the table.
The reason we call ourselves “gay” is because we don’t feel “straight”. Its not a matter of embracing our sin. Its more of NOT pretending to be straight. Let’s be clear, we’re NOT straight. The term is more of a matter of getting out of denial. The same way an alcoholic would do it. Once an alcoholic believes that he’s an alcoholic, then he has better footing to address the issue at hand.
I was wondering if the straight audience here could put yourselves in our shoes for a second.
- Pretend as though the world was all naturally same-sex.
- From an early age, you started having feelings for the opposite sex.
- You try and convince yourself to be a homosexual and live like the rest of the world, but you’re not really feeling it.
- Your church leaders tell you how much of a sin it is to be attracted to the opposite sex and you’re destined for hell. Bible verses are being thrown at you.
- You agree not be attracted to the opposite sex, but at the same time agree not to be attracted to the same sex. Even though you have these feelings, you never mention them
- You follow the societal rules and end up getting married.
- Later on, you start having feelings for the opposite sex again. A scandal! You’re condemned! Everyone is shocked. How could you! You’re abandoned. You might even blame God for putting you in this situation.
That’s how it feels.
Please hear where I’m coming from. There is no easy way to stop being attracted to a sex.
I hope this dialogue here opens the eyes of both sides.
PS… I work in a hospital and an incident last week poses a question for this post. Last week, we delivered a healthy unique baby. The problem is that it was born with a male and a female reproductive system. The parents had to make a decision on which way to go and they chose “boy”. Surgery was done yesterday to remove any unnecessary parts. If that little boy grows up and is attracted to boys, is he gay?
Thanks so much for this and allow this open dialogue. Please keep me in your prayers and I will keep you and your sins in mine.
Eric,
I’m a member of the “straight audience” that actually can put myself in your shoes. I didn’t “feel straight”; I pretended to be straight; I fought tendencies and married and had children; still had those feelings and made the choice to give in to them and found my identity in being a lesbian. Everything you noted is true….that IS exactly how it feels! But through the redemtive power of the cross, I am no longer gay. I am also no longer a sinner. I AM holy and blameless in His sight. Now, I don’t know if I’ve EVER felt holy and blameless. But even though I don’t feel it, the Lord tells me it’s true, so I believe it.
Two quick things…
1. Sin of Sodom ABSOLUTELY includes the sin of homosexuality. Jude 1:7 “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”
2. Is it really loving the homosexual community to accept their sin? I believe the loving thing is to show a person their sin, the penalty of their sin, and that we have a Savior that delivers us from the power and penalty of our sin. To embrace a person and to let them think that God is okay with their sin is to love them straight to hell. That is not love.
Homosexuality is a sin.
Consider this: Is it really loving the heterosexual community to accept their sin?
You may not understand this but PEOPLE KNOW THEY ARE SINNERS. You needent point it out. This was not the prectice of Christ, either. Who’s sins did he point out in public? The Pharisees, (the church folk) In fact he rebuked them. The only person he spoke to naming her sin was the woman at the well, and they were alone. The lost are sinners wether they sin or not. Let them know that their is a savior who loves them. For the GLBT folk. thats the part of the message they may not have heard. They already know the rest believe me.
Every time I post on ragamuffin soul, i feel ignored. LOL. I think that’s God telling me to stop.
Elgin, hey bro, don’t feel that way. I have read your posts and say “amen” to the things you have written. Don’t grow weary in good doing.
Perhaps like Elijah, God would say, “there are many others that have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
Fight the good fight brother!
Wow, I am so far down in this thing. Anyway, I am loving this conversation. Like many others have said, thanks Los for opening this up. It’s a can of worms closed up for too long.
Personally, I’m all about loving sinners. I’m a sinner myself, and I want to be loved by others, so I choose to return the favor. I’ve been reading a lot of replies on here, and I’m nowhere near coming to conclusion. Whether the sin is in the temptation or the act, I rest in this scripture from Psalm 37:4-5
Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart. Commit your way to the Lord; trust in him, and he will act. He will bring forth your righteousness as the light, and your justice as the noonday.
There are so many people that take the word “desires” and treat it like a genie in a bottle. I desire a million dollars, so if I delight in the Lord, He’ll give that to me. Not necessarily. It’s deeper than that. When we delight in the Lord, He instills in us HIS desires. Our desires are what change. We start to desire what God desires. When we commit to the Lord, He pulls our righteousness out as light. Take from this what you will.
Much love.
I love the conversation here, and while I can not relate to homosexual desires, I can relate to the heterosexual ones. My larger sin is one of overeating to the point of morbid obesity. My desire is to fill the sinful hole in my life with pizza, cheeseburgers and ice cream.
The words that are being used are desire, temptation, and attraction. I’m not sure where sin “starts” when using these words, but for me, I have to CHOOSE not to drive through McDonalds. I have to CHOOSE to fill my mouth with healthy food. Is it lust if I think about ice cream? IS it lust if I think about eating ice cream?
For someone who struggles with gay attractions, only God can be in their head to know whether they are sinning or not. As Christ followers, we are called to love them. That’s it. Not condemn, fault, or analyze.
Thanks to all who’ve commented. It’s been great, thought provoking reading this sunday afternoon. I think it’s time for a carrot.
Peace.
My take on this is that the “same-sex attraction” he speaks of is nothing more than concupiscence. Some of us are tempted in one way, and others are tempted another way. For these guys, it happens to be that their biggest temptation is towards homosexuality. Therefore, he is correct in saying that that attraction itself is not a sin, but rather acting on it is the sin.
So, to say that someone is not following Christ because they are tempted towards homosexuality is ridiculous. Everyone is tempted one way or other in their lives, and to say that only a certain kind of temptation is acceptable is just hypocritical. Just one last thing though: this in no way means that this is something to just accept, fight it just like you would any other temptation.
Being born into this world makes us sinners. Christ died for the man who commits 1 sin as much as the man who commits 1,000,000.sins. They are both alike under sin until they understand the need for a savior and accept the Forgiveness that Christ provided 2000 yrs ago. Let us all realize that we are bew creatures in Christ.