Where All The Ladies At? Female Christian Communicators In Our Churches
A few days ago I asked you for some new preachers to listen to.
You guys came through.
Then I read the last comment from my buddy Tony Steward.
“Wow – not a woman in this whole list.”
And he is right.
There was not ONE female on the whole list.
I immediately was mortified. Wow. What a bunch of sexists pigs…
Then I changed my thought…because how many weekly communicators in my circle are female?
I don’t think Tony’s church has any.
North Point doesn’t have any.
The newest anointed voice I’ve found is Bianca Juarez. She straight up preaches…
In The Name of Love from Bianca Juarez on Vimeo.
But I don’t think she even has a weekly gig.
Some of us are getting sneaky and inviting them in to “speak” every once in a while.
We pat ourselves on the back and move on…
So what’s the deal?
Where are they and why are they not communicating REGULARLY in our churches?
Los
RAIN IT DOWN
oh i love you for opening up this can of worms!
mmmhmmm…
*grabs popcorn and hunkers down for a show*
ditto!
I know, right?! Haha.
There are young evangelical, inspiring, women preachers out there. It’s time for those who are leaders int he church to recognize them and let their voices be heard.
Check out Jenn Williams’ podcasts from Ashley Ridge Church in Summerville (Charleston), SC. She is a church planter whose portable church meeting in a HS has gone from 0-300+ in about 5 months. She’s really good!
oh, brother, you’re opening a can of worms now…
(and i like it)
Not to be a total narcissist here but I wrote about this last week, specifically around the Nines, and had some interesting discussion in the comments. http://www.emergingmummy.com/2010/06/in-which-nines-is-indicative-of-larger.html
Ultimately, in my opinion, it’s indicative of the larger gender issues in the evangelical church. We simply don’t respect or mentor or listen to female voices enough. So of course that’s represented in the conference circuit.
LOVED your blog. Lots of resources to jump off of.
Sarah,
your blog was fantastic! it really got me thinking about the leader conferences, books, and ways that leaders are influenced!
Thanks, Lisa! I appreciate that. I’m still thinking myself…. (dangerous, eh?)
Thanks! I appreciate that. I am still thinking about it. Some of the commenters really opened my eyes to the fact that we are there, leading, but no one notices. Thanks for writing about this today. I am not the only woman in the church that appreciates it.
Sadly I think women with those kinds of communication gifts are often limited to teaching Sunday school classes or at women’s ministry events. And because that is all that most women with communication gifts see, we rarely even recognize the possibility and/or opportunity for something different.
I think the tide is turning, but slowly…VERY slowly.
How do we speed it up?
Seminary discounts for women – seriously. We earn less, and it really is prohibitively expensive.
Even if the Doctrine Books were rewritten tomorrow, there’s still tradition to go up against. So, call me a pessimist but I can’t foresee a balance of women in high-profile spots any time soon.
But here are a few ideas to get the ball rolling in other realms:
1) Give women an online podium via blog posts, video interviews, podcasts, etc. Women are already doing this on their own, but invite them to the spaces traditionally dominated by men. The internet levels the playing field. As you know.
2) Empower women to lead in their communities. (Train and highlight via #1). I’m at a point where I’ve grown weary of changing the church–but I’ll never grow weary of changing the world.
3) Have Catalyst (as a random example
) initiate and promote highly-localized conversations and invite women (not exclusively, but intentionally) from the area to lead the discussion. Then follow-up on that via the web, “Here’s what Susie Christian and the gang in ___ have to say about ____.” It validates new leaders and gives them a chance to speak.
(And I’m stoppin’ at three points since that’s a nice speakery kind of number.)
I agree with you, Lisa. Tagging on that, it’d be great if we could also be more intentional about mentoring younger women so it’s a bit easier for the next generation to rise up.
It’s not in most of our natures to push or shout, “Look at me” when the boys gather around the table, and as a result I think we can be (unintentionally) overlooked.
I think it’s great the guys are asking the question and working hard to be more intentional about bringing women to the table.
As for us, if we pour into younger women now & help build their confidence, it might make it easier for them to feel like they have a valid seat at the table as well and encourage them to step up more.
Yep. To me it’s a “new wine into new wineskins” kind of thing, so it’s best to focus efforts in different avenues and on young (-ish) women.
I’ve seen DNB speak and she rocked it well. I think some of the dilemma is that the women that are out there, are already well known so nobody names them – Nancy Ortberg, Beth Moore, Joni Erickson Tada etc. Once you get past that initial line of big names there is a steep drop off in awareness as well as in numbers of women serving in roles where they get that opportunity. Some of that is a gender bias, some of it is church traditions where 2 Tim and Titus mean women cannot fill these positions (specifically Elder). Take out the large group where the women cannot fill these roles and you’ve taken a sizable chunk of the Christian pool. So you are left with a much smaller pool, some of which are working against a gender bias, therefore it comes as no surprise that there are far fewer ladies coming to people’s minds. We can debate the merits of whether that is right or wrong till Christ comes, but it is clear why this has happened.
I am not the “weekly” speaker at my church – however, I have many opportunities to be the “Sunday speaker”…and yes they even get posted on the podcast page
.
There are not many if any in our local area though..
Can’t wait to hear from others on this.
So Tammy…
Is it something you would like to do more?
Yes – I would do it more. (I say that knowing I could do it more at my own church if I said that outloud). I see some people are talking about conference speakers as well.. I actually did speak in at the Orange Conference as a breakout speaker as well – but I would love to do it more – and see more voices of women being heard in the churches.
Here is one of the Sunday morning messages I did recently –
http://woolridgeroad.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/04-18-10-inked-indelible/
Tammy
actually had a similar thought while reading through most recent issue of Relevant. not one woman among all the people profiled in various articles. (I’m a fan of Relevant… not bashing… just noticed and did a little hmmmm…)
Make it a bigger hmmmmmm.
What is it?
I think you asking questions like this helps. Conference planners should be watching for women who can BRING IT and have them speak.
When I looked at the speaker votes for The NINES about a week ago, I was sad that there was not ONE women in the top 40 of those receiving votes. To me, that means that the mainstream Christian leadership collective doesn’t think of women as having a lot to offer. Personally, I voted for several women who I think have some major chops.
(Sorry, I meant this to be a reply to what you asked me. Oops.)
Up until recently, I preached monthly in my church. I am also a speaker in my daily job to the legal profession. I am female.
Then our church got a new pastor and now I have been shelved. Since then, the young men have been given new opportunities to preach, and are being mentored. I haven’t even been given a reason why I’m not on the roster anymore.
However I know God has called me to preach. He will make a way.
Wow.
You have been called to preach. I pray you get to.
Where can we hear some of your stuff?
my platform has always been limited because i am a woman…people want to hear the “Britney Spears” part of my life or want me to sing, but God forbid i have something to SAY…
we were at the Forward Conference this past weekend and it was the first year a woman (Christine Caine) has spoken…and she BROUGHT it. they’ve also never had a woman lead worship…
hmmm…
Yup. I fear Christine Cain is carrying it all alone right now.
She is amazing!!!
unfortunately I have to agree that Christine is carrying a lot of it by herself but as someone who feels called to speak, teach or whatever you call it her example of how to straight up lay down the Word of God pushes me to keep pursuing it.
She spoke at my church (Newspring in Anderson SC) 2x’s a while back. She was AMAZING! Absolutely phenomenal!
Actually, I think a lot of Hillsong women are carrying it. Not just Chris Caine (who I admire so, so much!) but also Donna Crouch, Bobbie Houston…they have a real culture of letting their women be heard. There’s also people like Chris Pringle (CCC) who are becoming more widely known. Also at the conferences held by both churches, there is a notable number of women speakers as a rule.
I guess I’m one of the ‘lucky ones’ in having experienced that positive environment – I guess maybe Australia are ahead in that aspect (definitely more so than in the UK!), but it’s certainly needs to be encouraged. I’m tired of women’s events just being about frills, fluff and cupcakes.
Christine is phenomenal, and is carrying a lot of it right now.
But there are plenty of us out here trying to make our way. We’ll get there too. (And Bianca rocks, by the way)
Love,
deb
Does it always have to be an “issue?” At the end of July, there will be some 600 women attending a conference aimed at making them better communicators. For a good number, they aren’t looking for a weekly ‘gig’ or to be given the main mic every Sunday morning.
To say that many Christian women minister primarily to other women doesn’t have to be sexist. If we’re each filling the spot God has designed for us, there doesn’t have to be anything sinister or sexist or archaic about it.
That’s not to say there aren’t some inappropriate attitudes among the dudes out there. Years ago I attended a national youth convention with some of my students. When we returned to our youth group, I shared what we’d heard from one (male) teacher. One of the other youth leaders all but turned his back to me while I was talking because he had issues with “women” (me) teaching “men” (the high school boys).
I guess my question would be are there women communicators who feel called by God to speak to the church at large who are meeting with resistance, or are they simply carrying out the mission God has given them to a narrower audience?
If it’s the latter, I think that suggesting they should be preaching to the church as a whole is rather like telling a youth pastor that he should be teaching/counseling/planning-activities-for the entire congregation too.
i have a message to speak to the Church at large… so I blog. I have spoken at numerous churches under the blanket of Young Adult ministries, but my message wasn’t particularly for that generation, they are just the first ones that made room for me to speak. i’ve spoken to women also and of course as a woman, i know how to relate to them and serve up a timely message. heck, i’ve taught kids too! lol The point is that the resonating message within me is for the entire church and that doesn’t fit the majority of church agendas and M.O.s
Great thoughts.
I think that it needs to be an issue if they are not being ALLOWED.
Calling is different though.
I’m not weekly, but I do throw down a message every couple months.
preach. And did you get my email?!!!
yes! i replied? did you get it? alas…i will resend!
Hah – can open, worms everywhere…
But I would respond with a question: are you talking about female communicators getting more opportunities to speak in general, or are you talking specifically about women preaching regularly to congregations? For me, those are two separate questions (and that goes for males as well…).
So for now, I’ll take the weaselly way out and not answer (yet), because for me the answer really depends on the exact question. For me, the latter is in the realm of the theology of the pastoral office. The former is more sociological in nature, methinks. Two different animals, and two different answers.
first off…
Both…
So now. Answer them both.
hehe…it looks like Matt and Jen have done the dialogue that my responses would have likely led to, so I’ll try to answer more simply.
As far as communicating – speaking at conferences, etc. – I have no good answer. Can women communicate just as well as men? Sure. Just invite the best, no matter the gender.
As far as preaching, I believe that Biblically the task of preaching is given to pastors/elders, and that the role of pastor is limited to qualified men. Matt has covered much of where I would have gone with that discussion, but I would say that preaching is but one of the tasks given to pastors to do. I think we’ve confused this by creating titles like “preaching pastor”, “worship pastor”, “youth pastor”, etc.
On a bit of a different angle, though, Los, you said that there are some pastors that should never preach. While I would agree practically – I’ve heard many sermons that I didn’t think could be qualified as “good” or “sermon”
– one of the Biblical requirements for pastors is that they are “apt to teach”. So all pastors should be good teachers. That some aren’t is our fault, not God’s.
As well, whose standard do we use to determine who is “apt”? Flashy and/or can-I-get-an-Amen style is not the same as being a faithful, loving exegete of the Bible who regularly points people to Jesus.
I’m not sure we’ll reach common ground here, since my conviction is that we cannot separate the pastoral office from the task of preaching, nor vice versa. But like many here, I appreciate the dialogue.
I think it necessary to note that while preaching is necessarily teaching, teaching is not necessarily preaching. For instance, I can teach someone in a one-on-one situation: it IS teaching, but it is NOT preaching. So going along with the other things you have said, that a pastor is a good teacher is necessary, but that a pastor is a good preacher is not necessary.
Also, I’d appreciate it if you’d look at my thoughts on pastoral gift vs. teaching gift down right above Matt and Jen’s discussion… you seem like you might have some good thoughts on it.
Glad I’m not the only one who understands scripture this way.
Here are the ones I can think of:
HILLSONG:
Christine Caine
Bobbie Houston
Julie A’Bell
Cathy Clarke
Vera Kasevich
Darlene Zschech
Donna Crouch
Well, let me pause and talk about Hillsong… They have co-pastors. Husbands and wives are equally entrusted with ministry. They give their women plenty of opportunity to teach and develop. They have a thriving women’s ministry (The Sisterhood) that meets weekly (I think). They also have multiple campuses, again, plenty of OPPORTUNITY to teach.
They value women, and it shows. They are viewed as a gift, not a threat.
Others on the states side:
Lisa Bevere
DeLynn Rizzo
Lori Champion
Keri Weems
(A lot of the ARC churches)
I know there are more… but they are out there!
Thanks, Carlos! Great topic!
as a hillsong church attendee for a few years, i was more than pleased to sit under leadership that celebrated the gifts within their women. that being said, i also sat under pastors’ wives who were pushed to lead the women but weren’t so “gifted”… but at least i got to see my friends and enjoy the music those days.
That’s often a very real issue, pastors’ wives who are the reps of women & count as “we have women speakers” that are not gifted with a preaching or teaching gift. most people know exactly what i’m talking about… i hesitated to type it, but think it’s a valid point.
Wish I’d read your comment before I did mine – you’ve covered all that I wanted to say, but better
Yeah but they are primarily wives of already well known men who already made a name for themselves… how many of those women did it alone? My husband is not called to be a preacher, it’s not who he is, and he isn’t a “take charge” kind of leader… so my chances of getting to preach are pretty low… and I’m currently…… teaching sunday school. Which I do with joy, but I’m not a kid person really… but I at least get the opportunity to do something… that’s better than sitting on the bench…
i want to be a preacher/speaker. i long and desire to be able to share and teach His Word. i want to be able to share to His church the lessons HE has taught me from being abused, being addicted, being a single parent and share to them the beauty He’s made with the messy life i once had… and why i have the hope that i do.
i’m just actively waiting on God’s open doors. i’ve been waiting for almost 8.5 years now. while waiting i’ve read books, i took classes, read even more books and i’ve [reached to myself in front of the mirror jsut to practice smart mannerisms.... and because of that i will FINALLY get to speak at a women's conference April next year. i believe God has finally opened the door. the funny thing is...it's not even a conference for my church. =)
but see i do not despise the days of small beginnings...because my God is faithful and HE will bring about the desire that HE has planted in my heart and bring it into fruition...because HE makes all things beautiful in His time =]
the women i look up to:
*donna shelton (the wife of the preacher i posted on your other post)
*christine caine
*lynette lewis
*bianca juarez
*bobbie houston
*crystal renaud (i believe she will be a world-class speaker)
*lisa bevere
*beth moore
*and ofcourse Joyce Meyer
yes. crystal will be a force to be reckoned with!
sorry i meant preached not [reached
The only ladies I’m not familiar with is Donna Shelton and Lynette Lewis… I’ll have to look into them.
donna shelton is a co-pastor with her husband rick shelton (they were joyce meyer’s pastors before she started preaching)
http://www.lifechristian.net/
lynette lewis is an author/speaker who wrote the book climbing the ladder in stilettos. her and her husband have an amazing testimony… but she was also a speaker when she was single too.
http://www.lynettelewis.com/
wow, my name being listed among those women is absolutely humbling. thank you.
i FORGOT about joni eareckson tada.
this woman has been PREACHING for years.
Los – you are not alone in bringing this up. This has been on my heart watching a few of my friends disagree about what it means to have a “Biblical Family Model” and today there was much blogging about “The End of Men” article in The Atlantic and the lack of women on The Nines speaker voting list.
I think the idea that women MUST be in the home to truly serve is a misconception, but I think it has forced many women to outside church walls ministries – such as Kay Arthur, Beth Moore and Priscilla Shirer. We want families, we want to follow the heads of our house but The Lord has given us a powerful message. I heard a speaker at a conference I attended through the UMC in February, say about Beth Moore, “I like her but she needs to go to seminary.”
I guess my point is that the Church as a whole must recognize the power of women, not just in ministry to other women but to deliver The Gospel in a new and fresh way. We are the priesthood of believers, whether we’ve been to seminary, laity, clergy, man woman, slave or free. Whether that’s non-denominational or traditional churches, we need to remember we are all equal in Christ thanks to the Holy Spirit.
This is a critical issue for The Church – do we pull an Acts 6 and answer it as the Apostles did or do we continue to relegate women as Sunday School teachers and MOPS speakers? I am both so I can claim it as an honor to serve by teaching anyone but women DO have the same Holy Spirit and can teach under that same authority.
Thanks for posting Bianca’s info – I love it! And thank you for being brave to, as one other comments said, open this can of worms!
Wow! Great post! I completely agree. I truly think it is an issue of The Church. We are called as the body of Christ to serve the body of Christ- and the body is not just made up of men and women are just as capable to serve the body, including in formal communication on a regular basis.
I have many cans…
I am a female seminarian but I’m not sure what grounds there are for giving a blanket statement that Beth Moore (or Kay Arthur for that matter) needs to go to seminary. Since women do not currently function in technical pastoral roles in the evangelical church, the kind of role Beth Moore has is more prophetic than pastoral. This is true of several of the other women who were mentioned here as well. So, the question is, why would women NEED to be prepared for an office they are disqualified for by their very gender? Also, after finishing three Bible degrees, I can honestly say that I think the biggest misconception is that seminarians are the most qualified for ministry or even Biblical study. I would put Beth Moore’s Bible knowledge up against my own any day of the week. Not to mention, she loves the church and its people way more than I do. One thing that rings true to me is that God uses who He wants . . . and that makes seminary folk kinda mad sometimes because they were the ones who are presumably the most prepared for the job. But I sorta like that God can’t be tamed and He continues even in our own time to use the foolish to shame the wise. I have a huge passion for seminary life and academic study of the Bible but at the same I despise the sense of entitlement it gives some of us. All that to say, I would like to see more women in seminaries but I’m also thrilled to read Scripture with women who have not been to seminary because they read the text a little bit differently than I do and we can learn from one another.
love the idea that “God cannot be tamed!” He is amazing and can do amazing things!
God cannot and will not be tamed. Amen and Amen!
sets down popcorn for a sec
ive been thinkin about this and honestly…i dont know that we women know the answer, the “why”.
we can assume. but im afraid many of the answers ive heard from women in the past on this issue, have been based on them being burned from men in leadership. or from not being recognized and respected as a competent and wise teacher, speaker, leader. but why theyre not…i have no idea. maybe its insecurity. maybe its legalism. but i think women can offer so much. they bring a side and perspective that, typically, men dont. simply because they dont have boobs. well, some men do…but anyways… (
) so if they could team up more regularly, the masses that could be reached would broadened greatly. imho.
so, what say you los…as a guy, why do you think women arent communicating regularly?
I think that there are 2 issues.
1. Men are coming from a parent generation that taught that women can’t. So it is all they know. This will be a generational thing that dies as they die.
Harsh I know but true.
2. I think that same generational thing is happening with the women who were taught the same thing.
So any “calling to preach” they have is snuffed off as them needing to be missionaries. Which is an ANOINTED calling. Just different than preaching.
yah. i can see those as valid reasons. youre probably right.
thanks for answering, los.
Most environments that I’ve been exposed to where women do not speak have nothing to do with those 2 reasons.
It’s a theological reason.
I’m very surprised no one has mentioned this. Some people actually make controversial decisions because of scripture.
I think it’s because there is a manner of thinking that women can only speak and instruct other women, not the men. Usually cited is 1 Timothy 2:12 (which is pretty point blank black and white), 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 (wrongly… Paul was adressing an issue in THAT church, remember… he wrote a letter) and Titus 2:4.
What they conveniently forget is Acts 2:17-18 which says (paraphrased) that God will pour out his spirit on ALL people, including the women, and they will prophesy.
What? Only to the women? Or the kids in Sunday School? I don’t think so.
I never heard Jesus say women couldn’t teach, in fact, in John 4:38-39, Jesus praises the woman for sowing the seed that created a harvest of souls. I presume men were involved in this.
This great article that I have found in past wanderings through this subject, and takes the three scriptures I quoted above to bits. I agreed with it, anyway
http://www.churchofgoddfw.com/women/suffer.shtml
*practices oohs and ahhs for the rest of the fireworks*
Those are exactly the scriptural reasons I’ve been given when told that the word I believed God had for me to share to the church couldn’t be shared as a message. I could share a “moment” like a “devotion” and then one of the men could preach the message.
I have little doubt in my mind that the gifting of the Holy Spirit in my life is speaking and writing. I just keep asking Him when I’m supposed to speak and where. In MY mind, it should be a full schedule starting in August — but in God’s timing, it’s probably not. I have to wait on Him. (And apparently on some of His men who have the say-so.)
The church that I go to has a lot of women speakers.
I remember when we were attending the members seminar, they mentioned that there are women pastors in the church, and if someone has a problem with women being leaders, they can move along. haha!
I’m extremely confused. When would the woman speak? After she cooks breakfast, cleans the house and iron’s my laundry?
Or, after she waters the garden, makes lunch, changes the baby, and preps for dinner? Or, after she cooks dinner and does the dishes?
This whole thing doesn’t make sense.
I haven’t even mentioned cleaning the bathrooms…. Woman just don’t have time to speak at churches
my husband and i are roaring at this. i’m wondering if he really posted that.
And please don’t forget about the bon-bons! Must have time to eat the bob-bons!
cans of worms….troublemaker!
Wow – thanks for noticing the comment.
LifeChurch.tv doesn’t have a woman that speaks consistently – but just in this year we’ve had some great movement by leadership to change that. Craig’s wife Amy preached for the first time on Mothers Day, we did have Christine Caine come in, and Craig G talked about how he wants more women speaking and visible in leadership to inspire younger girls to know they can lead and do great things in the church.
It is just a start – but it is pretty cool.
What i like more is that you are wiling to have the conversation Los. For me any time it feels like here is something I don’t want to talk about it is probably the exact thing we red to address. Thanks!!
You do realize, of course, that ultimately the problem is how we interpret and make use of Scripture? A couple of sentences from Paul have ruled the day on this issue for centuries. Even Grudem has trouble with women preaching for this reason.
Anytime the foundation of your theology and practice is the Bible (i.e., your interpretation of the Bible) and not Jesus Christ, the God he calls Father and their Holy Spirit, you are going to run into these issues.
This problem runs deep in all corners of the church and the remedy for it entails more than just adding more opportunities for women to speak. It requires a serious paradigm shift.
I forgot to shamelessly self-promote. I blogged just the other day about whether women can be apostles: http://theologyforreallife.com/2010/06/20/can-a-woman-be-an-apostle-besides-junia/
I agree. It’s a modern interpretation of the bible — meaning, we can pick the bible apart and know *for sure* what it means, forever and ever amen.
bless you for opening up this conversation…i’ll start praying now and grab some extra popcorn and the big sized drink for the upcoming show!
as a woman who is a ‘guest speaker’…um…heavy sigh, good sir…heavy sigh.
I think there are a few complex issues:
1) Most people who are currently in the role of mentoring and developing leadership are male and there is a tension of appropriateness when it comes to male/female relationships in the church. Many are afraid of what other people might think if they are seen having one-on-one meetings with women. (Rick Warren says he will not be alone in a room with a woman.) I guess in our tabloid world, I can see why that might be an issue.
2)Of course let’s not forget that many men feel it is unbiblical to have women in positions that might be “teaching” men. Yes, we can interpret Paul’s words or consider the context, but even now there are leaders afraid to err on the side of contextualizing Paul’s words and take Paul’s instructions of women in the church as black and white.
3) We have a diversity issue in general in the church. We tend to gravitate to that which is easy for us to relate to instead of being open to those who see the world differently because it makes us slightly uncomfortable. I have no studies to prove this but I think women are taught to relate to both sexes (we often don’t have a choice) where as males are taught to relate to men more specifically. I see it in the education world (as a high school teacher.)
In my experience, I have not been entrusted with the opportunity because either the leadership feels if I fail I’ll fall apart or something or they are scared that I might actually be used by God just as mightily and then they may have to readjust their thinking. Change can be difficult for many people.
I believe a change will happen as the next generation has been exposed to more diverse gender roles and will look for a church that reflects diversity in many ways. Read Dear Church by Sarah Cunningham as an example of a new breed of evangelicals that wants to see the church inclusive rather than exclusive.
Another commenter raised the question of whether you mean opportunities to speak or preaching regularly in congregations, and you said both, so I’m going to stir the pot a little.
In regard to the former, I think it’s sad that at Christian conferences of any sort (except maybe those geared primarily toward women), the predominant leadership is male. There are plenty of female pastors, preachers, worship leaders, speakers, musicians, actors (I could go on and on, but you get the picture), etc. who could take equal leadership in big events like these. I think many conference planning teams just don’t seek them out, or they just look for the token female to make it all look well-rounded.
As far as the latter goes…I actually see quite a bit of this happening. In my denomination, we are celebrating forty years of ordaining women, and I have been greatly influenced in my own call to ministry because of some very Spirit-filled church leaders who happened to be women. Of course, there aren’t as many female pastors (and I use “pastor” specifically, referring to those who have been ordained in the denomination) as there are male, but in thinking about my seminary classmates, I think there are more females than males. Since I’ve never been a member of the “evangelical” church as some would define it, I can’t say why women aren’t in leadership there. But I know that when women start listening to their own sense of call, some realize that they are called to be church leaders, and take the initiative to make it happen. They enter our candidacy process, excel in seminary classes, and become wonderful and faithful leaders. I think that denominations or churches that aren’t encouraging women to discern whether or not they are called to be church leaders are doing a real disservice to the body of Christ. I know that’s a bold statement, but I think it’s time we started making bold statements about things like women in ministry.
I also think that a lot of this issue has to do with how many Christians refer to God using solely male-focused language, but that’s another can for another day ;]
EXCELLENT question. As someone who would love to speak more, I believe that being a woman has limited my opportunities in this area. Until recently I was only asked to speak to women’s groups. However, women’s groups rarely invite women to speak if they mostly speak about porn and such.
I’m anxious to hear more of this conversation. Good stuff!
Thank Carlos
indirectly related to the post: some of your readers might appreciate reading _Two Views on Women in Ministry_ for some additional research on the Scriptures. it’s a really balanced book that presents both sides and makes the reader think a lot more than maybe what you might read on the surface of the readily quoted verses on the subject.
Thanks for opening up this topic Los. And thanks for sharing the video on Bianca Juarez. Also, I love how you shared a video of a woman who is not white. Not only are there a lack of women communicators, there’s a lack of non-white communicators in general. I know that’s another can of worms though.
thanks for opening this topic up.
i feel that there is a lack of opportunities for and confidence in women in the church. in my experience the pastor (of a small group/program) takes responsibility for mentoring the men and giving them opportunities and the pastor’s wife is supposed to do the same for the women. but the pastor is full-time, paid staff and the pastor’s wife is busy raising kids and has other responsibilities. (not a knock, just a big difference in availability.) my experience from traveling the world and attending a spanish speaking church here in the states has been that other cultures are much more open to women using whatever gifts they are called to and i often wonder why that is…
I consider myself somewhat gifted in speaking and teaching (*pats self on back*), yet I’m not so sure I’d die on the hill of women being able to speak (where men usually and primarily do).
For me, the issue is a much bigger one — that we have given sole individuals (specifically, “preachers”) far too much importance and have taken away the opportunity for *everyone* to speak. Who says the person upfront (regardless of gender) has all the answers?
*puts on postmodern coat and slinks away*
Preach it, Sister!
Love this point Lisa. I recently blogged about our church’s music ‘fast.’ One of the things that replaced music in those weeks was the opportunity for *anyone* in the congregation to stand and share a scripture, poem, ‘word’…it was a refreshing blessing to hear from so many voices that I’ve never heard in a service.
I think there’s far too much emphasis placed on “paid professionals” doing it all (speaking from my admitted bias as a ministry wife).
I am way appreciative of this, because doing this job would be life dream. But, I’m afraid that it could never be a reality because there’s no where for me to do this.
wow, carlos, this is awesome!!!] and vicky, awesome points. and very true. i do love rick warren, truly and i appreciate being above reproach, but i hear things like this from male pastors and it can be discouraging if it keeps those of us who are women communicators from having the chance to do what we were made to do! my husband was at a conference once where a pastor’s wife stood up and asked rick warren what she could do to best help her husband in ministry. do you know his answer? “sex & baking cookies”. huh? i get that there was a context for that comment, but it’s hard to take, ya know?
this topic shouldn’t be a can of worms, that’s the thing. for years i’ve been speaking in churches but had to do it under the guise of “talking in between songs” or “sharing my story”, etc. I traveled quite a bit to all different denomination churches and would have pastors say to me “hey sweetie, now when the guy who is going to give the message gets here, tell him to meet me in my office”. and to that i’d say “you’re looking at him (her!). all 5 ft. of me. and it was always awkward, then i’d get the “not bad for a girl” comment afterwards. it was interesting.
and now years later as a church planter, i’ve been given the opportunity to speak (give the message, give a talk, ‘preach’, whatever you like to call it) on sunday mornings, but given the season of my life (2 little boys, worship leading, etc) I just can’t pull it off as much as I’d like. The more I do it, the more I realize the need for both men and women to hear from a woman. as a woman leading men in worship ministries for years, i find that i can get away with saying things to men that a man might not be able to without egos flying around- almost a mom-type approach- in love, maybe more sensitive, but also representing how a woman feels.
everytime i receive an email or flier about a big christian conference i sigh as there’s always a token woman thrown in there (MAYBE) after lunch for a brief session. rarely a woman worship leader who isn’t just a singer harmonizing with someone (but the boys club of worship leading is another topic!). i find it sad that we as the church are so far behind in the area of having women communicate with more frequency- we’re all missing out. i am grateful for a church where i have been given that opportunity and i can honestly say i love it- i feel so humbled b/c my paradigms of women and their role in ministry as a child were so far from what the kids in our church get to experience. why are all the women speakers relegated to worship conferences or sticking a daisy in their hat or flowered stages while wearing mother-of-the-bride outfits? ack. i love hearing an everyday woman communicate her heart, experience, and the love of God – in any setting. it shouldn’t matter the gender-
this past feb. during a series on men/women, i spoke to the men as a new twist- on behalf of women. i can honestly say i got more feedback than i ever have on a message from that angle. i think men want to hear from a woman as much as women do (which was rather surprising). link to podcast/mp3: watershedcharlotte.com/upload/audio/mp3/Transit012410.mp3 . anyway, given the length of my comment, i’m rather passionate about this topic. will check out the speakers mentioned above and look forward to reading more of the dialogue! thank you!!!
Y’all: As a woman in seminary (one of the few in my seminary), I have a lot of thoughts about this.
Now that I attend a Nazarene church, I am free to teach a mixed Sunday School class when needed. And I have to tell you, I love to do that. We also have a female evangelism pastor on staff who preaches every month or two…and she was once told by a professor that she did a good job with a sermon, but it “sounded kind of feminine.” As if that was a bad thing…
There is a biblical quagmire here that I believe can be negotiated rather simplistically. Scot McKnight’s book The Blue Parakeet has helped me tremendously in this regard. He asks the question WDWD-”what did women do” in the Bible? When you study seriously, you find there were women judges, prophetesses, deacons, apostles, benefactors, teachers, etc. But this is the question I believe stops many male pastors in their tracks:
“If in 1 Corinthians 11:5 Paul reminds the women to cover up their heads when they are prophesying (indicating women were regularly prophesying in the church) why in the world would he tell them to “keep silent” in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35?” It simply doesn’t add up, and tells us that something cultural is happening here that we don’t get from a simplistic reading.
I presented this to a pastor recently, and said,
“And if women were allowed and exhorted regarding prophesying in the New Testament Corinthian church, pastor, I’d like to ask if they are today prophesying in your church, continuing the pattern of service we see in the New Testament.”
And do you know what the pastor said? “Weelllll….I’m OK with them prophesying to children, I guess. This situation here in that passage was certainly not ideal.” And guess what, none of the other women in the NT I mentioned who served were “ideal” examples either.
So I like to ask the question “what did women do?” It’s led me to some amazing discoveries, including the radical nature of having female disciples follow Jesus, being taught by him, and paying out of their own pockets to support his ministry. Wasn’t popular then either–but Jesus did it anyway.
Thanks for posting this!!
Is that pastor’s response more degrading to women (who aren’t good/holy/called/filled/man enough to teach the adults) or to children (who apparently aren’t important enough to warrant fully qualified teachers)? All I can say is grrr.
I think people forget this is one of the main issues that split the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship off from the Southern Baptist Convention in the 90s. Its somehow “cool” to be part of the SBC again – but I seriously doubt that a women would be allowed to ever preach (or even speak) from the stage of a convention. Sadly the CBF has not been innovative or outwardly focused much – but they have at least been open to women preaching in a baptist world.
Our church has some AMAZING women preachers/speaker, They don’t speak weekly but they do speak a lot.
Here are a few ladies I LOVE to listen to;
Christine Caine http://www.equipandempower.org
Absolutely the best there is right now. She will read your mail, encourage you, rebuke you, make you sweat and you will thank her afterward.
Priscilla Shire http://www.goingbeyond.com
One of the most articulate teachers I have ever heard, male or female. She gets it and she teaches it. Amazing!
Jennifer Maggio http://jennifermaggio.blogspot.com, she goes to my church.
Her testimony will FLOOR you, and when she tells it, everyone listens. She speaks to women in the inner city and in the suburbs. Her new book was just profiled on CBN.com, it’s an instruction manual for Single Moms. She’s the real deal whom men and women alike listen to when she speaks.
Delynn Rizzo, yes, I’m biased, she’s my pastor so what, she’s chipper and genuine, she’s great. She taught Dino everything he knows.
read the posts, heard the question and now to comment. The discussion will go on, and should. since i was 18 yrs old with a desire for bible study, i have had something to say regarding my learning or insight. depending on the opportunity given from 18 yrs old to now (in late 50′s) I worked diligently to uphold the “unwritten” laws of a woman “preaching or teaching” His word to women older or males. sometimes i was celebrated and respected and sometimes i was tolerated and plotted against. i persevered until a few years ago and today I finally speak very quietly or not at all. it is my hope that women, such as my daughter, will be given a wider path to express God to individuals as well as to the multitude…one not being greater than the other. No person of study, discipline or reverence for God should be held back from the assignment because of prejudice! Thank you for opening up this dialog! My prayer is it reaches further on behalf of His dream!
aha! i found you! well said mom.
oh and BTW, your buddy Mark Driscoll is way against women teaching men. He’s so missing out.
preach it!
Buddy?
my senior pastor and wife teach/preach on regular basis. both of them. and she does a bang up job!
Love. Love that you’ve asked this question. I couldn’t agree more…but I might be biased!
Well let’s just say you 2 sisters could soon take over the world.
Ohhhhhhh snap! Wow.
This question is multi-faceted and the responses are hitting on some key components.
Thanks for starting the dialogue, my friend!
Whoaaaa whoa whoa….When Bianca first popped up I could have sworn it was J*! Sisters??
See you on 10.10.10
I definitely think we have a patriarchal society that just doesn’t want women speakers/preachers. In my role at Hopechest (a global orphan care organization) I am part of the team that presents at a church when they launch their ministry to an orphan carepoint. I speak WITH a man (a co-worker). In fact, I am quite sure that is the only way I get in the door. One of the last churches we spoke at asked him if he could do it alone and leave me back home. He refused saying he believes that there is a calling on my life and if they only had one of us, he would choose for me to be the one presenting. They said I could come as long as he did the “preaching” and I simply “shared stories”. Pretty sure I still “brought it” (I tend to do that).
They are now talking about changing things up so that only one person travels – pretty sure that means I won’t be speaking at any churches now. . . you know, since I’m a girl.
PS I am extremely grateful that this co-worker will fight tooth and nail to give me these opportunities b/c he believes I am gifted and called to do this – It has actually been freeing for me. I believe for a long time, I too, had bought the lie that I didn’t have anything to offer in mixed company.
I know I’m a wuss for not posting my name.
I’m just getting the opportunity to do more speaking and writing.
However, my husband admitted to me that he’d never be ok with me being the one with a stronger or more public ministry.
I wonder how much of this attitude permeates the church in general?
Welcome to world missions – The woman is supposed to stay home while the man goes out and does ‘ministry’
it’s bull crap for sure, but it happens all the time and then the couple wonder why their marriage suffers.
My wife’s overseas ministry is 3x what mine is and I’m proud of her for that.
Okay, I read everything so far in a balanced, seeing-both-sides way. But this post has got me really angry.
This husband needs a smack round the head. A hard one. Preferably from God because He can hit hardest. How dare he say what God can and can’t do and who He can and can’t use based on how it might make him feel? He’s headed for a serious humbling.
‘Anonymous’, I pray your husband learns to value you for who you are rather than for what he’s not.
And los, here’s at least one of the answers to your question. Sure, sometimes women aren’t preaching due to interpretations of Scripture. But sometimes it’s because of insecure jerks who can’t stand the idea of a woman being more succesful than them.
Grrrrrr.
Right, must go cool down now…
It’s interesting to me how many of the women spoken of are the wives of pastors. Where are the women who are called by God to speak & don’t have the platform of a husband pastor to stand on, and why aren’t we using them too? Without a doubt, God uses the wives of pastors in great ways (and it is certainly not “wrong” for them to speak), but I have to wonder how many of these women are just borrowing a skill & platform instead of overflowing with a God ordained passion, calling, vision & message.
Interesting. I guess I found personally that in my life before marriage in my own speaking and interests I crossed paths with someone who had similar passions…my husband who is now a pastor. I would venture to say that happens a lot! I wa fortunate enough to have been ‘given the platform’ before I met my husband at another church and other settings when I was single. I know that is not the case for mist women. And I too worked for a non profit.. World help. In some settings I had to write the message and give it to a guy to speak it b/c the denomination would not allow a woman to speak. Crazy stuff.
In my short time, I have found that male pastors often have wives who are extraordinarily gifted in speaking/teaching, etc. I think God intends it that way in order for the male pastor to have a wife that compliments his gifting, and vice-versa. It’s neat to see how that works.
I love to see that too. It’s a beautiful thing when a married couple serve together in harmony and love. My pastor and his wife, when they are “up front” together, which is extremely rare, compliment each other. Since I experienced a broken home, I am captivated and can’t take my eyes off their harmony! It’s like…WOW, look at how a husband and wife work together without arguing…..I love that. I am wondering, if that’s the kind of harmony God wants for all his church (servants) and His messangers (preachers, teachers) I also want to know HOW that happens in a ministry, a church and a marriage. Cause, I like it and want it for my life….
Brandi, I was just thinking the same thing.
It seems to be more a little common that women are invited to speak on specific topics at conferences [e.g, Children's ministry, marketing, design, etc] but it’s rare that I see any teach on weekends & certainly not enough on the conference circuit.
I’m a fan of “the best speaker” regardless of gender, which leaves me wondering where ARE all the ladies? Are we really just not good enough?
EXACTLY!!! Does that mean women like me are sorry out of luck?
Our church has some AMAZING women preachers/speaker, They don’t speak weekly but they do speak a lot.
Here are a few ladies I LOVE to listen to;
Christine Caine
Absolutely the best there is right now. She will read your mail, encourage you, rebuke you, make you sweat and you will thank her afterward.
Priscilla Shire
One of the most articulate teachers I have ever heard, male or female. She gets it and she teaches it. Amazing!
Jennifer Maggio she goes to my church.
Her testimony will FLOOR you, and when she tells it, everyone listens. She speaks to women in the inner city and in the suburbs. Her new book was just profiled on CBN.com, it’s an instruction manual for Single Moms. She’s the real deal whom men and women alike listen to when she speaks.
Delynn Rizzo, yes, I’m biased, she’s my pastor so what, she’s chipper and genuine, she’s great. She taught Dino everything he knows.
Wow…..what an awesome compliment. Thanks, Carole.
As Scripture impacts me, a woman who preaches, I do not believe that I have a “right” to preach. I do desire that whenever I speak, hopefully I don’t get in the way of God’s work. But, it is not about me. I would have made a very poor feminist to fight for a woman’s right to preach. However, others have given me permission to preach and teach and speak. In that respect, I think that it doesn’t matter if you are a man or a woman, it is for the Lord to call you into that role. We are ALL called to speak the Gospel and share this message of Jesus Christ, no matter our roles in church or home. But for specific leadership roles, it is not a “right” to be called pastor or teacher for anyone. I don’t seek to have authority over anyone. That is Christ’s role. I just want to tell people about Jesus. And what an amazing gig to do it in front of so many people on a Sunday morning or throughout the week. I am humbled that my earthly father, my husband, and my congregation all call me and support me in this calling.
I do wish there were more every-day professional women preachers for me to learn from. I feel at a disadvantage, as if I didn’t get invited to the men’s “how to be an awesome preacher” seminar that so many of them seem to have attended together.
So, I figure if I stick to sharing Scripture and what Jesus Christ means to me, I will let God do the rest.
GREAT blog posting! Thank you for the conversation!
I love what you wrote here. It seems like so often the issue is that some people feel left out and just want the title…the authority and position. The truth is that leading in Christ’s church is scary…it’s a huge responsibility that we will ultimately be held responsible for. And if everyone’s hearts were like yours, just desiring to share Jesus with those that don’t know Him, we wouldn’t have these types of disagreements. Thanks!
Yeah, I wouldn’t expect many of those of us on the other side of this discussion to speak up. We’ve been cast by the question and many of the comments as the bad guy trying to prop up our chauvinistic regime of white guys trying to keep the women down.
Not exactly representative of our actual heart in the matter, and our biblically based convictions.
But ask Grace Driscoll what she thinks about it, or Noel Piper.
I did not know there was another side?
Los, were you really not aware of Driscoll & Piper’s stand on this issue? i appreciate all of the women listed as “great speakers” but quite honestly, i’m not so into the male versions of the their message anyway. Where are the female Matt Chandlers & Tim Kellers…the female Erwin McManuses & Francis Chans? Now that’s what i’m talking about.
I suppose we’re blogging from our day jobs on our lunch breaks and influencing peeps through small groups and conversations with strangers. hmmm… Thanks for having the guts to go with your gut and just ask the questions.
I am very aware. But I am talking about preaching not pastoring.
I hope you know I’m asking this out of genuine interest and not to be rude…but I’m wondering how you would separate the two titles. What separates a pastor from a preacher? I guess I’ve never thought of them as being two separate titles/offices.
This is my opinion, and might not be (read: is probably not) what Los is thinking. But nevertheless… “pastor” literally means “shepherd.” (which, btw, is why “pastoral” poems are about nature.) In my opinion, true pastors (not just those with the official title) are those who shepherd their flock outside of preaching, e.g. seeing sick members in the hospital, making house calls to talk to people, and genuinely getting to know the members of their congregation.
I suppose a succinct way to put it is: preaching is shepherding the whole flock at the same time. Pastoring is shepherding individuals within the flock when a need arises and in a manner specific to the need.
On the whole, I think those I consider to be good preachers (e.g. John Piper, Matt Chandler) have more of a teaching gift than a pastoral gift. At the same time, if they have a pastoral gift, I probably wouldn’t know it since I’m not in their congregations.
All that being said, feel free to take this with a grain of salt. This is an area of theology that I’m still developing for myself.
i get that. but many of the peeps in that line of doctrine don’t limit preaching to pastoring. most take issue with a mixed company audience sitting under a female teacher/preacher under any circumstance. frankly i think a lot of our female influencers within the Church (whether known on a large scale or not) are more of a prophetic voice, which doubly annoys people with gender phobias.
I certainly would not take issue with a mixed gender audience sitting under a female teacher in some circumstances. I LOVE it when women in the Church enabled to use their prophetic gifting. I think in some ways, because women are normally more gifted in Intercession, they are also very gifted in Prophecy. Stifling their gifting in those areas would be a terrible sin for a church to make.
that’s very insightful Matt. seriously, the prophetic thing is most likely the bigger issue here… a struggle between the Apostles and Prophets of the Church. there are tons of women communicators in the Church and i don’t buy their books or attend their conferences because their message is not attractive to me. but give me a woman who teaches with the insight on the Kingdom like Francis Chan or the love for humanity like Erwin McManus or the compassion for the lost like Shane Claiborne… then my ears pep up. where are those women?
That’s a good question! I think far too often the Bible is interpreted to say that women should never be in a position to teach, but I don’t think that argument holds up to any real study. People don’t see the middle ground. It’s either they need to be teaching every Sunday or they are never allowed to teach. I find truth in the middle. Respect Paul’s teachings as God given commands, but don’t add anything to what he has said.
true.
i. love. bianca. she’s one anointed sister.
a-freakin’-men!
I appreciate you opening the discussion, Los. I think it’s mostly a development issue. Because the church is still figuring out how to embrace women in leadership in the church, we’re years behind men in our development as communicators. For example, I grew up in the church being encouraged to learn nearly every ministry role, except for teaching. As a result I’m way behind in my development in that area… and yet it’s one of the things that I’m most passionate about right now.
I’m thankful the discussion is on the table and that more and more women communicators are being recognized.
Yes Jenni I agree.
I think that women are not even realizing that they have the giftings because they are not showed.
I am showing my girls.
Now.
Your girls will be firecrackers!
Can’t wait to watch them grow up and be powerful women of God.
I guess I will go ahead and take the unpopular side on this issue in this group. I’m going to say because it is clearly unbiblical for women to be pastors/overseers in the Church. Do not misunderstand me to say that women cannot be leaders/speakers, etc. In my church, we have women small group leaders (which our church considers Deacons), a woman worship leader, women staff members, etc. But the teaching/preaching role is limited to men. And believe it or not, I do not attend a sexist church. Our church is committed to following the Bible and its teaching, whether it is popular with contemporary society or not. Unfortunately, this is becoming a difficult position to maintain amongst evangelical churches recently.
I have two main arguments. In response to someone above, no serious study of the Bible will reveal any woman apostles. There were faithful women no doubt, and clearly women who were able to make huge differences in the world, but no apostles. No preachers. None. And we could attribute that to culture, but there is one problem…Jesus.
Jesus went out of His way every chance he could to challenge the way women were treated in society. Jesus took many opportunities to speak to women and care for women that the rest of society considered outcasts and unclean. He did not hesitate to take any opportunity to challenge societies treatment of women in that day. So how come when he had the opportunity to make a HUGE social statement with women, namely picking one as a Disciple, he didn’t? He could have ended this argument that has been plaguing the church for an incredibly long time by doing that one simple thing. And don’t argue that it was because He couldn’t find any. There were plenty of faithful, talented, inspired women around. He chose 12 men, and He knew what He was doing. Jesus intended the role of pastor/overseer to be limited to men. If He had intended otherwise, He could have led us in that direction. But He never did.
I know this is the unpopular opinion, and sadly, becoming the minority one in the Church. Some of the best Bible scholars/teachers in history have all affirmed this teaching, and we love to go to them for pretty much everything, except this one thing because it’s hard to defend in modern culture. Calvin/Luther/Edwards/Grudem/Piper have all given lengthy explanations as to why this is such an important issue for the Church to hold on to. I’m afraid we are losing it.
And please do not consider me a sexist pig. I love my sisters in Christ deeply. I have mentors who are women. I have dear friends who are women. One day, God is going to allow me to be married to a woman whom I will devote my life to serving as Christ serves His church. I believe all women Christians are gifted, talented, beautiful people that Jesus will use in His Church to further His mission. But not as pastors/overseers.
Clearly unbiblical? Context
See my post at the end of this topic. I’m going to include a link.
You are speaking of two words I never used.
pastors/overseers.
I am using the words
preacher/communicator
agreed, carlos. communicators and pastors: 2 different roles often.
how many churches do we know that have a “teaching pastor” and an “executive pastor”? communicators are often just that in the church..not the leader of the staff, not the pastoring one- just a teacher or communicator. a voice to be heard.
I could guess one (of the many) reason why there were no women disciples…women were not even educated in Jesus’ time! if we based our church leadership on the law of omission than we’d struggle (and maybe should) with building campaigns (I don’t recall Jesus having one of those) and the like.
If we look at the O.T. (2 chronicles) and read about the building of the temple, SKILL is mentioned throughout the passages- those who were SKILLED in gold-smithing, those who were SKILLED in building- all came together to create a place of beauty and worship to honor God.
God is doling out the natural ability, our culture/society now allows for women to be educated (& free to not dwell in a ‘red tent’)- who are we to hold back those whom God has entrusted with the heart/words to speak to do so within the context of our worship gatherings (or conferences, etc?). Skill brought to the table to create the environment to encounter and know God is a thing of beauty.
I guess my issue then is that I do not see a biblical separation of the overseer/pastor role. Maybe that is just a semantic in some degree, but I think it is an important distinction. I think that pastors are supposed to also be overseers. I have ABSOLUTELY no issue with women who have gifting in speaking and lead some ministries. I have a dear friend who is the women’s ministry leader in our church and I love hearing her speak. But I guess I was confused where you said “weekly gig.” In my view, weekly gigs go to the pastors, which I believe should double as overseers. I also think women like Beth Moore who spend a lot of time traveling and speaking at conferences, with both men and women, is wonderful. She does a great job leading women. I hope this cleared a little up!
Sure did. But I think that there are pators/overseers who should NEVER preach and preachers who should NEVER oversee.
Ok. I see where you are coming from. Just in my own church, we certainly have overseers who do not preach, but all of our preachers are overseers. Interesting distinction you have made. I will have to look into that!!
You’re gonna have to define all those things in a biblical context if you want to go the semantics route. That’s pretty derivative response, los! come on man
A large amount people associate preachers and pastors as the same thing, though not all, and I’m not suggesting they are the same – I’m just saying that it might be good to define those for the sake of conversation.
Just say’n.
Pastor…overseer.
Preacher…preacher.
Well said, Matt. This is my first time to ever come to this website and I am NOT feeling the love. There is a lot of feminist venom that has infiltrated the church and what you had to say was in love and filled with what is in the word of God has to say and not the feelings of angry people.
conversation does not equal venom.
Glad you stopped by!
Maybe I’m missing something but I don’t see anything currently that looks like anger in reply to Matt. I guess it’s possible Los had to delete something.
As a man, I can say I have learned as much from the women in my life as a believer as I have from men. They love Christ and reflect him in their lives. Los didn’t say anything about a woman overseeing a church. He said teaching/communicating. Why can’t we hear what women have to say about their faith from a public stage? What’s the harm?
Who financially backed the ministry of Christ when the boys were off fighting about who would sit next to him?
Women.
Why would Christ go to the woman at the well and interact with her in the way he did if he meant for her to keep silent?
Jesus treated women like human beings – with worth and value. Do you think he meant for these women just to sit in a corner and nod? I don’t think so.
And I want to add this…I’ve been reading this blog for awhile now and this is only my 2nd or 3rd time commenting. I have NEVER been turned off or dismayed by what Los has written. He is clearly a man after God’s heart and I love that he is interested enough to put a statement like this down. I don’t think he was trying to stir anything up (even though I’m sure he knew it was going to cause debate!
, and he has NEVER given me a reason to doubt his sincerity. If this is your first time here, spend some time here and get to know him. You won’t regret it!
that’s classy Matt. good on ya!
Thank You for commenting Matt. It means the world bro.
I am going to respectfully respond to this, with what I found through study of the Word, and other texts in regards to women in prominence in the Bible, and I hope it comes across as such. There is no accusation here.
There is argument that the apostle Junias mentioned in Romans 16:7 is, infact, a woman. John Chrysostom, a prominent 4th Centuary early church father wrote of her “Oh! how great is the devotion of this woman, that she should be even counted worthy of the appellation of apostle!” He wrote her name Junia, a popular female name of the time.
May I also suggest that in Ephesians 4:8, Paul tells us that some will be pastors, some apostles etc etc… he didn’t mention a sex, so one can conclude that it really does mean all… Previously in Galatians he said that there was no longer slave or free, male or female in Christ. All equal. In Acts, as I mentioned above in my own comment, it quotes scripture that say that the Lord would pour out his Spirit on ALL… and that daughters and women would dream dreams and prophesy along with the men. Acts 21:9 tells us of Phillips four virgin daughters, all of whom prophesied. Since Paul was staying in their house, we could safely presume they prophesyed over him.
Pricilla is mentioned BEFORE her husband all six times they are mentioned in the bible, and this is completely against customs of the time, so either she had a higher social standing than her husband, or she was more prominent within the church. John Chrysostom, wrote that it was infact Pricilla who instructed Apolos, as mentioned in Acts 18:24-25.
In Corinth, we read of Phoebe, named as a diakonon… translated as “servant” in this passage, but everywhere else it is used, including by Paul in regards to himself, as “minister”
From Pauls letters to the Corinthians, Paul aknowledges that there are women prophesying within the service, (1 Cor 11:5) and that there is nothing wrong with this. However, the church at Corinth were rife with fase prophets, and wives that were constantly talking loudly and asking their husbands questions (1 Cor 14:34-35), so where Paul says for women to keep silent, it is in response to a specific incident within that HOUSE (church) that was bought to his attention.
I’ll stop now, as I’m not writing a thesis *grin* and I hope I haven’t offended. I do not judge your opinion whatsoever, and I hope you don’t feel condemned by my writing. For the longest time, I too thought that women could not teach, was taught as much… but then saw so many women who were so obviously anointed in this area that I had to look for myself. This is what I found.
Jen…I most certainly am not offended and appreciate your comments. I will try to respond to them as clearly as I can, and hope that likewise, I do not offend.
The discussion of Romans 16:7 has given me some issue over time. However, after trying to get deeper into the study of language and usage, I have determined that this text does not harm my position of the role of women. Some will argue that Junias is not a woman, but I do not think it matters. I am willing to bet that she probably is. However, reading the text in the original language and with context, I see it as saying that she was “well known” amongst the apostles, and not what some say to mean “prominent among.” “Prominent among” would suggest that she has the same title and “rank” as the apostles, where “well known” simply means she was known and respected. I have no challenge with that. Women were definitely well known in the early church with incredibly important roles. I see that in today’s church as well, but still maintain that the title of overseer/teacher/pastor is reserved for men.
As for Ephesians 4, I can agree that no gender is mentioned and that it still does not harm my position. Women and men alike are prophets, teachers (in the sense of being able to teach, not in the role of pastor), and evangelists. Women are just as capable and gifted as men in all of those roles. But further reading in the Bible lays out the role of overseer/pastor and clearly limits that to men.
I will further state that the only role that I believe is limited to men is the overseer/pastor role. I believe women are gifted and able to fulfill deacon roles, leadership roles, worship leader roles, etc. All roles are open to women, in my opinion, other than overseer/pastor. I would never suggest that women cannot teach, just not in the pastoral role. And I LOVE when the Bible talks about women in such high regard. Even when it is in a higher regard than their husbands. There is a dear friend of mine in the church who is a woman who is held in much higher regard than her husband, as he is lazy and passive. She is going after Jesus with everything she has and he is laying aside. She is clearly more “valued” to the kingdom that he is, and she is respected as such. But that does not mean that the role of pastor is open to her.
I appreciate deeply this discussion. I had almost considered just wasting away watching television tonight, but am so glad I came here. I definitely feel like I am back in college writing a paper though!! God bless!!
I’m so glad that this conversation throughout Los’s comments has been so graceful.
In response to your suggestions of the Romans passage, I totally swiped this from one of my sources
The word normally translated “prominent” is “episeimos”. Its proper meaning is “a sign or mark upon”, and is implies selection from a group. Coupled with the preposition ‘en’, which means “within” or “among” in the plural, it is clear that Adronicus and Junia are prominent or notable from among the apostles. (*flourish* ta da! *grin*)
What say you to the Phoebe suggestion?
Unfortunately, I still cannot agree with your interpretation of the Romans passage (I’m sure you saw that one coming!!!
). Thankfully, this is something that we will never be able to definitively prove. This is where I just ask God to give me the grace to impart some wisdom, and when I take this passage and look at it under the microscope of the rest of the Bible, I can’t say that it is strong enough to take away from some more clear commands, such as what is found in 1 Timothy. But, I am definitely not so arrogant as to say that I am 100% correct.
I was afraid you would push the Phoebe suggestion!!
My understanding of Phoebe is that she was appointed as a deacon. Deacon and Minister were used interchangeably in Jesus’ day, and so I assume that Phoebe might have been one of the first Deacons in that church. As I have stated before, I see no reason to restrict women from the role of deacon. They are certainly able to serve the church as deacons. I think when we put our modern interpretation of the word “minister” into its historical context, it confuses us. So I will just say that I believe the term is the same as deacon, which does not change my original opinion.
Great discussion!
good comment. i totally agree (and i’m a woman
Matt- thank you for arguing your point so respectfully. As a woman who is in ministry, I understand both sides. And truthfully, I don’t know. Both sides have great points. I guess I would say that whatever God’s called you to do, do it (whether male or female). God will fight for you and clear the way…especially since He’s the one gave you those gifts in first place.
Luckily, I do not think this is one of those issues that are bound to damage the church. I have my viewpoints, but I certainly understand both sides. This is not an issue of whether the Gospel is being misrepresented or whether we are teaching something that is clearly unbiblical. I consider it a “peripheral” issue that will be solved only when Jesus comes back. Let’s just hope that is soon!!
Matt, may I ask a question? I can’t come up with a way to phrase this, so I’ll just ask. It’s going to sound offensive no matter how I word it, but please know I am just curious and not meaning to attack in ANY way. Your position is the position my church takes and while I don’t fully agree with it, I do see the point and I think it’s a valid argument and not one I can easily dismiss.
But, my question is, what do you mean by the “mentors” you have who are women? How is a mentor different from someone who oversees? We probably mean two different things when we use that word, so that’s why I ask. I’m just curious. In your view, can women have a leadership (guiding, mentoring) role over men in a one-on-one context but not a group one? Thanks.
Hmm…that’s definitely a fair question and I appreciate you asking!! No offense at all.
I guess I consider this woman a mentor because she is someone that I turn to for wisdom and advice. She is someone who I know to be theologically sound and Biblically competent. That is a choice I made to put myself in a position to accept her spiritual leading in my life. But I don’t know if I can equate that with spiritual authority. When the elders at my church name a new teaching pastor, because I have submitted myself spiritually to their leading authority, I then must submit myself to this new teaching pastor’s spiritual authority. However, because our church believes that the Bible limits spiritual authority to men, they would not appoint her as my spiritual leader. Take for instance our small groups. As a small group leader in our church, I have spiritual authority over those who are in my small group. We also have women small group leaders who lead groups of women, and these are mostly college small groups. One of these women is a great friend of mine whom I respect and admire. Because of that, I occasionally ask her opinion on different spiritual matters. But that does not equate spiritual authority over me or the people in my small group. I hope that makes sense. If any of it was unclear, please let me know and I can try to explain later.
I see what you mean now. Thank you for clarifying! That makes sense.
Because complementarianism is alive and well. Especially in reformed &/or “evangelical” circles…which most of pop christianity is firmly entrenched in. Even the Catalyst circuit…despite many being more progressive.
Give it a few more generations. Like with most topics, the church stays a solid 50-75 years behind the rest of culture.
I find this comment particularly hilarious!
yeah man 2000 years and we’ll get it right soon — Let’s catch up to culture — I hear its good times
What you say? Jesus might have set somewhat of an example by selecting 12 men? Yet at the same time radically using women in his ministry as well? o0o
I guess I would add, if someone, anyone, was resistant to my teaching or preaching around them, I would not fight them over it. I would find some other Christian (man) who they would (hopefully) open their ears to listen to the Word of God from. I want people to know Jesus, not to debate my role in the church. If my being a female became a distraction or took the focus of attention for someone away from Christ, than I would be in serious need of repentance. Yeah, I’d be a really bad feminist.
Catching up on my twitter after being at my church’s annual women’s conference GodChicks…so this post caught my eye. Having not grown up in the church, and being saved later in life, these issues are new to me but make me so incredibly thankful for the church I attend. I get to see the most phenomenal female communicators in the church on a regular basis. Holly Wagner, Christine Caine, Priscilla Shirer, Marilyn Skinner, Lisa Bevere, Bobbie Houston, Vera Kasevich and Nicole Reyes.
examples of biblical women leaders/preachers/prophets
- deborah [enough said]
- esther
- prophetess miriam
- prophetess anna
- mary [she was the first preacher of the goodnews..it was a woman who told the disciples that Jesus resurrected from death], joanna and mary the mother of james
-priscilla (the fact that a woman’s name preceded over her husband’s name [aquila] just goes to show that she was probably more “out there” than her husband)
i think it’s a misconception that if you want to become a female preacher…you can be labeled as a “feminist”. it’s not a feminist movement at all. in fact back when women didn’t have a voice & were practically worthless, God called Deborah to lead His people and because the only woman judge.
i think its about recognizing the gift that God has put in His children. God’s gifts are irrevocable (whether a woman or man) and though there aren’t a lot of examples out there… God does give the gift of preaching/teaching/prophesying to women as well. Women don’t do this to try and prove that they are better than men… they do this because they want to obey the Word and do just like God commanded…they want to go and make disciples of all nations as well teaching others to obey …. [whether its through homeschooling, through the pulpit, through teaching, through being a house wife or a CEO of a corporation].
LUKE 24:11 But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense.
sorry typo – God called Deborah to lead His people and *become* the only woman judge of Israel.
Well, first of all, gifts are certainly irrevocable. The Holy Spirit gives gifts as He sees fit, and if He deems it right to remove the gift of prophecy (for instance) from someone, there is nothing to stop Him from doing so.
Second of all, none of the women that you mentioned were pastors/preachers. Sure, they had the role of speaking the gospel to the community, and no one would (in their right mind) argue that women should not do that. However, they were not appointed as pastors in the church, standing in front of the gathered community preaching the gospel. Their understood role was in community. Prophets have a different role (and the OT example of a prophet does not exist any more), and I don’t think there is any biblical position to restrict women from being a prophet in the modern sense. We have a strong hands-on prayer ministry team at my church and women are most definitely a part of that, and the hope is that as we are praying for people, God speaks to the person being prayed for through the person praying. That is a modern sense of prophecy. I just do not see any biblical examples of women being elevated to the pastor/overseer/teacher role in the sense of someone who stands in front of the gathered community in a worship service to teach.
Ephesians 4:11-12 It was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
first of all, verse 11 makes it CLEAR that pastoring is different from preaching/teaching.
second: the 5 fold ministry that was stated in that same verse says that He gave some to be prophets (this is written in the new testament) which means that prophets are not of “old” but that God still ordains prophets today.
third: is God a God of favoritism that He would only choose women to be prophets and/or evangelists but not an apostle or teacher?
now i understand your opinion and belief about women not overseeing/pastoring and i can respect that. i personally don’t have a desire to oversee/pastor a church (it’s a heavy weight to bear)… but i do have the desire to teach and preach…& i believe that God has put this desire in my heart. If my testimony (coming from an abused home, an ex-drug/alchohol addict, single mom, having been homeless and jobless and seeing God turn all of that around for His glory) will be able to help people come to the saving knowledge of Jesus and have hope & be inspired to live out their God-given potential by obeying God’s word… then i have done my part in fulfilling the great commission.
and that is what drives me. coz Jesus commanded me to GO into all the world and make disciples of all nations TEACHING them to obey everything He has commanded..[matthew 28:18-20]
it has nothing to do with being power hungry or wanting to be feminist or wanting for women to “rule the world”… LOL. i just have a big heart for people and a bigger heart to share about God’s love, so whether it’s a one on one coffee conversation or a big crowd… i’ll still be talking/speaking/teaching/preaching about the same thing.
Thanks for your comment Patricia. I have a few points.
As to your first point, I agree that pastoring and teaching are two different things. But I believe the role of a person who stands in front of the gathered community during a worship service is a preacher. I believe that role is reserved for men. As for teaching, that can happen in any number of ways. Women are clearly able to teach men in certain circumstances. My church has classes that take place occasionally on specific topics (we do some on money, Bible study, etc.), and I have no issue when a woman is put in charge of TEACHING that class. But if she were to stand in front of the entire church community on a Sunday morning and teach, I call that preaching.
As to second and third, I believe prophets are still active today. I believe that most Christians function in prophecy in varying degrees. That includes women. But I think the Bible makes it clear that God reserves the office of preaching to men. That’s not favoritism. God clearly set the man as the spiritual head of a family, and that is not out of favoritism. It is because God knows best and is looking out for the best interests of His children. Whether we understand why or not.
I guess my question is why do some women think that they have to be a preacher/teacher in order to share their story and tell others about Christ? In a church of 2000, there may be 3 or 4 regular weekend preachers/teachers. In that same church, there are hundreds of other areas to serve, many of them evangelistic. I think we have elevated the role of the pastor/preacher/teacher to say that those are the ones doing the real evangelizing, when in reality, it is the church body that does the majority. A functioning church should be bringing more people to Jesus through relationships of its members than through weekend teachings. The best way to reach the community is by making friends with those who do not know Jesus and then sharing your beliefs with them. Pastoring/preaching/teaching is not the primary way to do that.
BUT women can still reach out to the community by building relationships (with children, at sunday school, at work, with family, etc) and still preach and teach
ofcourse that is my opinion and clearly we do not see eye to eye in this specific subject so this is not gonna get anywhere. LOL!
though we differ in views… im glad we serve the same God who loves us no matter what. in the end, we will be judged according to our faith and what we did in this earth for Him so let’s continue to be faithful in doing the things that God has commanded and gifted us to do.
i guess we just have to let things slide and respect each other’s opinion. one day…me, you and Jesus can talk about this face to face in heaven
I definitely do respect you and your opinion. I can’t wait to discuss it with you and Jesus!!!
Just a thought I’ve had on this issue:
Has anyone ever thought that it was for a man’s protection that Paul made his statements? A generalization that cannot be argued: men are MUCH more visually oriented/distracted than women, so would it logically follow that they may have a harder time focusing on the subject being taught rather than the person doing the preaching/communicating/teaching if it were a woman? Think about it: there are some women who, even if you dressed them in a potato sack, would completely distract with their outward beauty even if they did not intend it.
If what Paul wrote about WAS indeed the Holy Spirit telling the church that women should not preach/teach, and we know that God is only after our joy in our pursuit of Him, why must we insert any of our own offended feelings into it and just trust that it’s for our best?
My 2 cents.
I love that last paragraph!! So often because we feel like something should offend us, we allow it to without thinking that God is sovereign and always out for our best. So if God did say that women cannot teach, why allow that to offend us instead of thanking Him for caring about our joy. Beautiful!
Thanks for the encouraging words, Matt – although I don’t believe that God said women couldn’t teach (I explained it a little more in my response to Taryn below.).
this is an interesting point that i’ve heard a lot through the years.
what exactly are women wearing that makes it too distracting for them to be speaking on a sunday morning? or preaching? or communicating at a conference?
the same things they wear when they sing on stage or play an instrument on stage or greet you at the door? or meet you at the kids ministry entrance to watch your child? are men too distracted by that as well? i can tell you what distracts me- big bellies hanging over suit pants, comb-overs, women wearing sequined mother-of-the-bride suits or tammy faye makeup, etc- does it distract me to the point of not being able to listen to what they have to say? sometimes, but that’s life- we tune things out to try and tune in.
how will men function in our world if having a woman communicate with them is a sexual distraction? should we take note from our mormon friends and have separate services? i have never understood this, but i do think there’s a way a woman can present herself that is not overdone & seductive, for sure. but this argument has always been bewildering to me.
it’s interesting in christian circles the amount of focus on a passage about a woman’s head being covered in a church gathering but passages about our bodies being temples fall by the wayside. i see more unhealthy-weight men communicating on stage than women with uncovered heads doing so. I think I know which one Jesus would rather
sorry i’m commenting so much, carlos! this is just too interesting!
good response, Taryn! There was a guy I used to be TOTALLY distracted by in my preaching class — never heard a word he said, but watched him very intently
I tend to agree here. Just because a woman can be visually distracting, I do not think that God intended to keep them from teaching just to protect a mans purity. I could be wrong, but that seems like a stretch. I don’t buy that as the correct reason, even though I agree with the conclusion.
I see what you’re saying, but I don’t think it’s a stretch at all. A man’s purity or lack thereof could completely dismantle his entire ministry and/or family.
… as could a woman’s, I should add.
I should have clarified a little more – I meant ‘should not preach/teach in the general assembly.’ There is a LOT less ‘up front’ feel about the other areas of ministry you listed, Taryn. I’m not saying that I agree completely with every aspect of the position I just laid out – I am the worship leader at a Vineyard Church – but shouldn’t we go out of our way to help a brother out than try to force an issue because we feel offended or entitled?
Plus, I think it has less to do with what we’re wearing than the fact that God gave us breasts and vaginas. Matt Chandler once said, “It is impossible for a man to not notice a beautiful woman.” What happens after that is what turns temptation into sin.
A worship leader for whom I have great respect once said something to effect that, “A woman in the spotlight has a much different effect on the men in the audience than does a man in the spotlight on the women.” I’m not saying that his happens with every man or woman (in fact, now that I’m married, if Jason Solley were still in the David Crowder Band I would never go see them in concert again!), it’s just a general statement about the differences God handed out when he created man and woman.
I did have to think about this for a second – The recent conference that I attended featured some powerful women of God…
-Patricia King
- Heidi Baker
Both having amazing kingdom impact!
I think everyone could check this site out for further reading from Grudem: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2006/10/Women-Pastors-Not-The-Path-To-Blessing.aspx
My favorite part of the whole thing is: “I base my position on a pattern in the whole Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, where there is never an instance where a woman does teaching of God’s word to an assembled group of men. It was the priests in the Old Testament who did the Bible teaching or the teaching of God’s law, and they were all men.
In the New Testament, elders all had to be men. So that’s consistent with Paul’s specific instruction in 1 Timothy 2:12 where Paul says, “I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first then Eve and Adam was not deceived. But, the woman who was deceived then became a transgressor.” That is not an isolated passage.”
Grudem is definitely a Biblical scholar, so I will not try to outdo him in that area. Except to point to my above issue: Jesus did not challenge this well understood rule in the church during His time. If He intended to elevate women to the role of pastor/teacher/overseer, He could have done it. But He didn’t.
Matt, you keep referring to what Jesus “didn’t do” when he had the opportunity as a model for what we “shouldn’t do” today. In that regard, he didn’t appoint a non-Jewish apostle, he didn’t appoint a “minority” nor did he free the slaves, etc. Your argument has been used to justify slavery for decades. Jesus had to appoint a Jewish male for numerous reasons – to use that a reason not to allow women to teach or preach “gathered men” is not a logical argument. Unless you want to restrict teaching to Jewish males…
Jesus “had to appoint a jewish male??” Really? Jesus…King of Kings…Lord of Lords…Son of God had to appoint a Jewish male? I think not. Jesus was free to do whatever He wanted. He is God. Jesus knows all…Jesus knew when He chose his disciples that today, we would be having this debate on this blog. He knew that it was going to be a terribly divisive topic in the Church that He loves so much that He sacrificed EVERYTHING for Her, and yet He chose not to settle the matter in the easiest way He could have. If you say that my argument can be used to justify slavery, you are sadly mistaken sir! Our entire lives are supposed to look at the example Jesus gave us and look to the entirety of Scripture to determine how to live our lives. Jesus never once gave the impression that slavery was acceptable. Jesus never once gave the impression that treating women poorly was acceptable. Jesus consistently and constantly gave us the example of loving others more than ourselves, which CANNOT be used to justify slavery. Your comment is wrong.
I think what Jon might be trying to say is that if the argument is “Jesus’ disciples were all male, so he didn’t want women in highest leadership,” why couldn’t you extend that to “Jesus’ disciples were all Jewish, so he didn’t want any non- Jews in highest leadership”
IF that is what he is saying, and I’m not so sure it is, then the issue would be a cultural one. Finding non-Jews who were aware of and believed in the OT Scriptures in the area where he selected his Disciples would probably have been difficult. They just weren’t around there. And a HUGE part of His teaching was that the Gospel was applicable to both Jew and Gentile, which was a new concept as well. He taught that Gentiles were accepted into redemption through Himself. He never challenged the structure of biblical man-headedness (I think I just made that word up!), and I think there is a reason why.
Hey Carlos. As you know, I feel called to speak. I am willing to do it at any church/conference/retreat of any size in any city whether paid or for free. I do not, however, feel called to market myself as a speaker. Despite having written a book, I still have some hesitation about treating the story of my conversion of faith and life as a product to be packaged and sold. Of course, this is a challenge since many churches/events are looking for the “package.” I could sit on my back porch and shoot video or put together a slamming press kit but I don’t believe that I’m meant to approach things this way. This was confirmed when I found myself “campaigning” a bit when I was nominated for the NINES. It didn’t take long for me to recognize some completely pre-conversion behavior on my part in pursuit of “my calling”. Yuck.
So I just wait, and pray, and do my best to support and encourage where doors open for me – at a church or in a coffee shop. If my calling is truly of God, I will wind up speaking where and when I am meant to do so. Something comforting about the Biblical long view that is easy to lose in our culture. God might choose to use me tomorrow or when I’m 80. His will not mine be done.
Here is a thought, Most of you biblical scholars, (many of whom have more theological learning than myself I am sure) know the tale of Mary and Martha. Martha asked the master, Jesus, to scold Mary for choosing to sit at his feet and listen rather than to be busy with the housework.if you are unfamiliar with this it can be found at the end of Luke 10.
Assuming you know this story, you will recall that Jesus scolded Martha instead, and claimed that Mary had chosen the ‘good part’ (NKJV)
If you have done a cultural study about Jewish Culture at the time of Jesus, you would know the significance of this. Mary was seated at the feet of Jesus. Jesus was the rabbi to his disciples, Mary, and others. In those times, to be seated at the foot of the rabbi was a sacred spot. Because it was the place of the Rabbi’s student, and his disciple. many times this place was occupied by John the beloved, however in this passage Mary of Bethany is seated in this spot.
While this doesn’t clearly state that Mary was a student of Jesus, it does give one reason to question. Add this to many of the other points made previous, and I think one could build a fine case for women in leadership roles within the church.
Los, you are not an UN-biblical feminist. In fact, The head of the Ministry I serve is a woman. I serve her diligently because I see the fruit of the spirit, and the works of the kingdom evident in her life. we do not have a podcast yet, but we are working on it.
Mat, all Christians are called to be students/disciples of Jesus. I’m not sure how one could be a case for formal church leadership based on Mary sitting at Jesus’ feet. That’s “followership”, which everyone is called to. (And this isn’t a gender thing specific to Mary – if the story had a male sitting at his feet, I’d say the same thing.) Also, all disciples are supposed to lead others. But there is a distinction between leading others and the pastoral office. Not all Christians are called to that office (most males shouldn’t hold it, either, if we want to go that direction). But all Christians are called to be students/disciples. We all didn’t get the chance to literally sit at Jesus’ feet. But metaphorically, at least, we all get to!
I thought this when i was first called to preach. Thats what i am called to do, and it’s a God given gift. I was told by many of my friends, especially the males that maybe it was women I was called to preach to… no, that wasn’t right. My heart grieved for the Church and women weren’t the only ones part of the church.
I served in a mega church and didnt notice the “sex” issue, i mean we did have Christine Caine come speak, and on occasion a female staff member would speak.
When i left the mega church and started serving in a small Sbc church, i was shocked. I wasn’t encouraged to teach, to share my ministry goals and vision were def not something that was liked. If i were to teach i had to have an 85 year old male deacon sit in my youth class to make sure that no “funny buisness” was going on.
I remember calling my dad crying, my dad didnt raise his daughters this way, Girl power was the anthem in my house. To feel oppression as a 20-something woman was something neither of us ever dreamed of happening to me.
I threw in the towel for awhile, and for many months my excuse for me being not able to do something, or being limited was that I was “woman.” I even had a friend tell me recently that i better stick to writing because that’s where women succeed in the church, unless they are beautiful.
Well, this has changed for me. I started attending a church called Irving Bible Church. One of the lead speakers at the church, who preaches as much as the sr. pastor is a WOMAN. She’s beautiful but not in a worldly way. She doesnt speak in a hush whisper or about only female and family issues but PREACHES to the congregation, she’s actually one of the best preachers i have ever heard. She just got her doctorate in preaching and to watch the big church stand up and applaud her for it gave this young woman hope.
Girls, don’t give up. As Christine Caine has said “If God can speak through a donkey he can speak through me.” Don’t feel limited ladies, don’t ever say “God you can’t because I am woman.”
I don’t see anywhere in scripture where spiritual gifts are reserved for one gender, one race or one class of people. Yet somehow in the Church, we’ve managed to discriminate against gender, race and class. I’m opening up another can here, but I think you could substitute “Worship Leader” for communicator and the gap is just as wide.
Good thought, Justin. When I started leading worship (years ago), people left the church over it. It was tough to know where the lines were of what was appropriate… could I read scripture? Could I pray? It was all so weird and these were waters we had to navigate as a church.
Blech.
a woman never needs to be the lead worshiper… we should just be utilized for our organizational gifts (set lists, filing music, team follow-up, choir director), our big beautiful smiles, and our precious voices during the slower songs;)
Joking of course… i’ve lead music at church for years, but never as lead worshiper (except for young adult services, youth services, children services, and on the less revered holidays… when the guy takes a vacation)
Note on my tone: not bitter, typed in jest and not currently doing music at all. i’m taking a breather. and me and the “guys” always get along really well;)
Okay, Soapbox time. People need to REALLY read their bibles. If you look in the New Testament you find more than one female leaders in the Church.
Moreover. Love God with all your Mind (Soul), Heart, Strength and Body. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. So, in essence, if you do not love your neighbor you do not love yourself or God.
That’s right, Jesus is for everyone, Gentile and Jew alike. He is not to be squandered on only one race, sex, or social class. I believe Luther said that during his reformation to bring the bible to everyone in their own language.
Wake up and smell the second coming. With Emperor Palpatine trying to destroy the Republic should we really quibble over what sex should preach? I think if anything we should be more cautious to know The Word so we can listen and see what is being taught.
So, to digress, Women are just as capable of imparting the wisdom God, His word, and proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ. How else are we to fulfill our Comission set upon us by Jesus in Matthew 28?
One last note: The Great Commision is a Commandment to which if you do not keep, you do not love Jesus.
True, the Great Commission is a commandment that all Christians must follow or they are sinning, but that does not necessarily extend to preaching/teaching. That just means we have a responsibility to share Jesus with everyone.
You mean Matt, from your point of view, ‘that does not necessarily extend to preaching…’ you made it clear earlier that teaching was ok for both genders, now it’s back to not ok?
You’ve yet to set out any strong biblical teaching on why you believe women cannot be ‘pastors’. You haven’t explained what you mean by ‘pastor’. Please show me a verse that says that women shouldn’t stand in front of a group of people, and preach. What’s also the difference between pastor and someone that mentors others, and has pastoral giftings?
There is talk about the office of pastor. Does this come with a desk and a pen? If some are called to be Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors-Teachers then why only pick out the office of Pastor? Also, Eph 4:11 clearly link Pastor with Teacher (some would call it a 4-fold ministry in that sense), yet you have clearly said earlier that women can teach, but they can’t pastor. Ouch.
Please give us some clear biblical evidence that shows why women cannot be pastors. Many have rattled off numerous verses on why women CAN preach, and why women CAN lead and why women CAN be Pastors.
Please also tell my wife she is out of a job.
Great question to raise; not surprised by the number of comments.
If you should get to mine…
Isn’t it interesting that women can teach in our Bible colleges and seminaries, but are restricted to do so in our churches? What is the justification for one and not the other?
If I may, I’d recommend a wonderful little book called “Saving Women From the Church – How Jesus Mends a Divide.” It provides a surprisingly fresh look at the subject of the roles of women in the church. The book looks specifically to Jesus, and the example of his interactions with the many women in the New Testament with whom he had significant contact. The results are incredibly affirming for women.
My favorite story is the woman at the well. While Jesus sent the male disciples off to make dinner arrangements, she went into town and preached about the Messiah she’d just met. Jesus’ words about “the fields ripe for harvest” precede her arrival with all the people she literally brought to Christ.
Thanks for the book recommendation, Jan!
To answer Los’ question:
They’re not REGULARLY because Biblically that is the responsibility ascribed to PASTORS…
That’s the Biblical reason anyway — but it’s 2010, do whatever works! LOLOL…What you say? faithfulness to scripture? whuuhh. . .but. . .she has reaaally good catch-lines … and a great smile!
I’m kidding obviously, I know I’m soo not funny; anyways: Complementarian FTW
I think pastors should stick to pastoring and preachers should stick to preaching.
Also, check out NT Wright for deeper theological backing for women teachers and pastors and elders, etc. He’s deeper theologically than Grudem or Piper et al…
And for those making the “gathered church” argument, notice how Jesus doesn’t address a gathered church, outside of the temple, which he destroyed. Gathered church today looks nothing like it did in Jesus’ or even Paul’s day…
I’ve been asking myself this question since I was about 7 years old, and the answer I kept getting at church never really sat well with me. I grew up in a church where women sang in the choir and taught CHILDREN’S Sunday School. We had a female choir director once & there was quite an uproar when she decided to read from the Bible before directing a song. Why? Because she was standing behind the pulpit when she read and that, therefore, counted as preaching. 20 years later, I still don’t know for sure if I’m “allowed” to teach men or not.
I started my blog primarily for women (because my legalistic background told me that was my only option). But then men showed up and started reading & contributing and a small part of me said, “Uh oh! I can’t teach men…” (For the record, the rest of me feels so blessed that everyone feels welcome in my little corner of cyberspace
)
I still don’t know what my role is in the Church as a woman, but I’ve obviously been called to write and teach. So I will continue to do those things and try to find out where GOD stands on this because after all, it’s HIS opinion (and not Paul’s or anyone else’s) that matters.
I think there are so few women on the speaking circuit because of the unbelievable insecurity of the men in the ministry. It is still, in many ways, a good ol’ boy network of egotistical little boys in expensive suits who spend much of their time teaching un-biblical doctrines to keep women from taking their jobs.
I grew up in a conservative church in the South where the congregations are used to being lied to from the pulpit and force-fed steady streams of biblical half-truths of scripture taken out of context to fit their agenda. Now I live in the shadows of one of the preachers named above who preaches the message that women in the church are there to greet and watch babies. What a tragic injustice. Because let me tell you something- my wife can preach the doors off many preachers who lead huge churches and international ministries. I know their lives and I know hers and I’d rather sit under her leadership than theirs.
Don’t misunderstand- I am the spiritual head of my house. I’m the leader of this family and lead pastor of this house. But that absolutely does NOT preclude my wife from bringing it. And as I prepare to plant a church soon, I’m not so terrified of my position in Christ that I’d be scared to hand her a mic and watch her be a conduit through which Christ will rain down on this dry, desperate region .
Bravo, Los, for bringing up this touchy subject.
You, sir, are awesome.
So our church has a regular woman preacher. Semi regular at least. Maybe every 4-5 weeks? Barb Fletcher at http://www.salemalliance.org. She rocks it!
It’s a shame that for the most part, throughout the entire conversation so far, no one has used scripture as thier guide in this matter. Afterall, according to 2 Timothy 3:16-17 “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
I too recently wrote about women in the church here: http://bit.ly/biwTtg Please consider reading this and praying about the matter.
Uh… I did.
The boys are scared that the girls will take over if we let them speak.
I’ll tell you this much…some of the most influential shape in my life has come from some very strong female communicators/friends/pastors (dare I call them Pastors). 
I believe the way leadership in the church interprets the Pauline writings on this ‘issue’ dictates the outcome of the expression of women in a Spiritual manner within the church.
One of the BEST perspectives I’ve ever read on the subject was in a book called ‘Adventures In Missing The Point’ by Campolo/McClaren. Read the chapter called ‘Missing the Point: Women in Ministry’. Here’s the link: http://is.gd/d8wAT
Obviously, there will be some of you that won’t even read it because you think those guys are heretical…to each there own on throwing stones…I appreciate their perspectives on this issue though. I believe it’s time for us to really revisit this thinking and theology. It’s worth digging into at a greater level and I believe it’s an important conversation for Church leaders as we moves ahead!
Brian, I read that chapter and you are exactly right. I forgot about that. Great book.
Los, you’re just an unbiblical piece of…..oh wait, someone said that
…..
I will be heading to Indiana in a few weeks for my wife’s family reunion. A pentecostal/church of God family and at this reunion there will be some preaching done on Sunday. I believe there are 27 preachers in the family, about half of them women. I’ll bring my camcorder
.
Hey Los
Coming from a movement – The Salvation Army – which was virtually co-founded by a woman, Catherine Booth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_Booth), has had periodically women leaders of the denomination; the most recent being Eva Burroughs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_Burrows), who is still inspirational into her 80s, it’s kinda hard for me to comprehend why it’s still such an issue. Except, of course for the fact that it is a reality.
One of our best speakers is Danielle Strickland who blogs at http://armybarmyremix.blogspot.com/
Danielle is an inspiration speaker and amazing Social Justice activist. Definitely worth checking out.
J
Each person provides something different and useful to the body of Christ. Preaching is no different. It is just one part of the body. Preaching is better than other services in the kingdom.
If woman want to preach then so be it and if they want to take care of children or work in the nursery then that is great also.
Quite frankly I would rather choose preaching over taking care of babies but then again I am a wimp and will choose the easier job.
Sorry, that should have read, “Preaching is NOT better than other services in the kingdom.”
sermons are already long enough…can you imagine how long they would be if given by women?!
okay, just kidding.
there’s a lady in our church who is a regular teacher…this year, I’m giving her opportunity to teach several times, not just on holidays or when I am out of town. she’s going to become a regular voice to our people.
that’s where we’re starting.
Brittany Bethel – Junior High Pastor at our church. Could not think of a better role model for my teenage daughter.
Also, Jessica Phillips, who gets to speak occasionally in the big room, in ways that cannot be classified as “the main message,” is an inspiration to the people of our church.
Female leadership in a church in West Texas with strong Independant Baptist roots is huge. I am so glad that our Pastor is taking on this challenge. We are probably going in the right direction, but have a ways to go. “Neither… male nor female, for you are all one in Jesus Christ.”
Wow! So many thoughts, opinions and passionate responses about this one subject, and here’s one more to add to this mix.
I grew up in New Orleans, LA. Well, I grew to the ripe bold age of 14. My parents were in full time ministry long before I came into the world. So, I slept in pews, played hide and seek in the baptistry, and was present at every church function there was. While I never felt that women were discriminiated against back then, I guess I wouldn’t realize it until I saw them present in ministry.
Very soon after moving to Tampa, FL I realized that the culture was different. I don’t just mean the culture of the people surrounding my home, who I went to school with and who I saw at the mall. I mean, the culture of the church was different. There were teenage girls in youth group that were speaking on wednesday nights. There were girls my age leading workship at youth camp. Our youth pastors wife was just as present in ministry and preaching as our youth pastor himself. That was different for me. That was encouraging to me. That made me realize that could be me.
At 15, very soon after that move to Tampa, I knew God had a calling on my life to minister. To lead others into worship, to share His word and much more that is still unfolding. I’m not sure that I would have realized or even accepted that calling had I stayed in that environment in Louisiana, or at least it would have taken me longer to come to that understanding.
Now, I am serving at a church that enables me and encourages me to use ALL of my gifts on a regular basis. I am the worship leader there and am given regular opportunities to preach on Sunday mornings, wednesday nights, etc. Florida is a thriving community for women in ministry. All across the state there are women that take the platform weekly, bi-weekly and on a regular basis. So, I have to pose the argument that while it is a church-wide cultural issue still today. I also believe, from experience, that as many of you have said, it is a generational thing, a regional understanding that has been engrained in many that will only die as that generation does. That is an ever so harsh reality that is a reality nonetheless.
So, to all those women that feel they are fighting an up-hill battle. To those young girls that are questioning the truth of their call – God is no respector of persons, gender or race. You are called for such a time as this. And, for all of us women that are activly being given the platform to display God’s calling – do not be discourage that that platform isn’t bigger or that your platform can’t be seen by more. Cause when I was 14, I wasn’t looking at Darlene Zschech for my inspiration, I was looking at Diane Strickland, my youth pastors wife who could preach it up better than my youth pastor himself as times. I was looking at Rachel Newman whose annointing and giftings seemed to lead me into the throne room every time she led me into worship. You are being seen. You are being heard and ladies, the tides are turning!
And to the men that seem to still question our callings or seem threatned by it – get over it. I don’t believe there is any scripture that pointed to the fact that God’s calling is only limited to those with specific genetalia. Instead, embrace those women in your community and tap into a huge resource that could catapult your church, ministry and world in ways you have yet to see.
My buddy, Jeniffer Dake, has been throwing down some serious talks for teens and college students for a long time. She lives in Nashville but travels everywhere. If you are looking for someone who can connect to younger people (especially young ladies), I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend Jeniffer.
http://jenifferdake.net/
I find it ironic that in the whole discussion only two posters mentioned/posted what scripture might have to say on this topic….and they were both women
cshell, umm.. in case you missed it earlier in the discussion, I believe there was a poster named Matt, that clearly spoke about some biblical references, and I’m pretty sure I don’t know any females named matt in the twenty some-ought years of life I’ve been around… but I guess there could be a first..
sorry, it just seemed unnecessary to throw in this comment in jest in light of all the solid discussion throughout the thread.
blessings,
Oh, but it wasn’t in jest. And I must have missed it in the 200 hundred some posts that 1 MAN decided to see what scripture had to say.
I apologize for missing that gem, have a blessed day.
I love the question. Some of the responses scare me a little.
It seems that the “main stage” has become the end goal or big win. I think it can be dangerous to strive towards the stage. male or female. It seems we should lead in our lives regardless of our position. Strive to lead the people we are around, let the Lord lead us where He allows.
When we glamorize and look at the stage as the ultimate teaching arena, it seems we toe the line of idolatry.
That is a good word, Jay. A great reminder about what our pursuit should always be first & foremost – to be where God wants us.
Oh boy, this is gonna get me in trouble…
Let me start off by saying that my answer to this question is based on the assumption that you’re asking why women aren’t the main communicator/lead pastor at any given church. My answer for why more women don’t speak on occasion would be different.
Also, didn’t have time to read all the comments, so if someone’s already said this then I agree with them…
My view on why there aren’t more female communicators is that…ahem…getting ready for crickets…it just isn’t Biblical. I would be willing to learn something new, but I just can’t find anywhere in the entire Bible where it says that a woman is the head of the man. In 1 Corinthians 11:3 it says, “Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” Now the argument there is usually that Paul was addressing a cultural or church-specific issue. However, I disagree. Read everything else around the male/female part. The head of every man is Christ – I don’t think that’s cultural – at least it shouldn’t be. Nor is the last part of the verse. So why would the middle section be. That’s just poor theology – picking and choosing what we want to believe.
And there are numerous other verses to choose from that all say the same thing. Now, does that mean that women are less valuable? Absolutely not. Does it mean that women can’t (physically) do it – preach, lead a church? Absolutely not. But I do think it means that it’s not God’s plan. Males and females are equally important and valuable, but they have different roles. Different roles in the home, different roles in the church. God lays that out pretty clearly. When society starts to tell us something that’s different from what God says, we shouldn’t justify it by saying that scripture was “cultural”… God is the same yesterday, today and forever and I think His views and plans probably are too…I can’t seem to see it any other way…
Having said all that – just like everyone else I am open for discussion and growth…
Well said!
Would you also mean then that women can’t be the breadwinners and men the stay-at-home parent? That’s also something that would never have happened in the bible…
I absolutely have no problem with women who want to work, but I have a huge issue with men being stay at home fathers. 1 Timothy 5:8 clearly says that a man needs to be providing for his family. That does not mean that women cannot also work, or even that the man has to be the primary worker. But if a man is a stay at home father, I believe he is shirking his God given responsibility of being the workhorse.
I am not condoning this, just throwing it out there.
But I really wonder if the reason why there are not a lot of female preachers and teachers is because of the churches desire to go after the males.
There are several books out there that talk about the idea of winning the male to the church and the rest of the family will follow. Maybe in the churches desire to go after the males and paint a picture of the church as not a place where you go and make crafts and talk about a weak Jesus, but instead as a strong savior or mans man (think about anything Drischoll says) we have pushed women speakers to women conferences and only invited the strong male figure to be the preachers and teachers.
I was talking to a college student that was interning at a local church in the youth ministry about a “sermon” she was going to be teaching at the end of July. She told me that it was not a sermon, but a lesson and they wanted to make sure she understood that. She was not preaching, she was just teaching the high schoolers. But not only that, I was amazed at how unconfident she was and lack of experience she had. She was a Senior and had never preached before, nor did she know how to prepare a sermon. She spent four years at a bible college to be a youth minister. I asked how much training she had or how many classes she has taken? Her response…3. I see a problem not only inside the church but also at our schools.
Your thoughts?
I read a great book recently about women in leadership. It’s called Gifted to Lead by Nancy Beach from Willow Creek. She tells her own story of being a woman in leadership – from the days when there were even fewer than there are now. She encourages women who have the gift of leadership (and communication, which is really the point Los is making).
I’d highly recommend it to MEN as well as women. http://www.amazon.com/Gifted-Lead-Leading-Woman-Church/dp/0310285968
It is always interesting to think that God would only want half of humanity (men) to teach the rest of the world. It’s as if we as men are superior because of one, out-of-context cultural idea presented in the Bible.
So women can teach children, but not men? They can teach young adults in a home or at a coffee shop, but not teach from a pulpit? If we were watching the Weekend Update on SNL, the next line would have to read, “Really??”
As a youth pastor, I make sure my platform has more females speak than even I end up speaking – and it is intentional. I have shown videos of Bianca Juarez to drive home a few of my lessons. If we are not deliberate about giving women the mic, men will remain in power. And often times the whole conversation of women in leadership is only about power, not understanding a few misread verses.
Even online, I try to point to female authors more than males. I also voted for more women to speak at The Nines conference than dudes. In order to make the shift in culture, we’ve got to be intentional about promoting women who have this phenomenal gift and unique insights into our world.
Us as white, males could shut up for a bit.
Yes, to all that.
I’m an ordained pastor in an evangelical denomination that has been ordaining women since the 70s (although it took a while to catch on with the majority of the churches).
I grew up being mentored by a female pastor, and am now currently a staff pastor at a church in Boston, MA, preaching once a month, also guest preaching at other churches and speaking at our local summer camp (Jr. highers — the worst critics). Our senior pastor is the first to brag about my preaching.
Our denomination believes strongly in the giftedness of women to pastor and preach, and to encourage that will pay for travel expenses if your church would like to have a woman preach. At our annual national pastor’s gathering, there is always at least one woman speaking of the four or five main sessions. For top notch female communicators I would point to:
Nancy Ortberg
Brenda Salter McNeil
Alise Barrymore
Lauren Winner
Judy Howard Peterson
…among others
To Scotty: I would recommend you take a look at Scot McKnight’s _Blue Parakeet_. It is impossible NOT to pick and choose from Scripture. Everyone does it, whether we think we do or not. True there are verses that speak to the silencing of women. But there are always verses that point to the existence of female judges and leaders (Judges 4:4), female apostles (Romans 16:7), female deacons (Romans 16:1), female co-workers of Paul (Philippians 4:2-3, Romans 16:3-5) and the ability of females to prophesy (Acts 2:15-18, 21:9), and even correct a male (Acts 18:24-26). So which Scriptures do we “choose?”
We should instead look at the Bible as a narrative, that tells a story from beginning to end, and discern, with a body of believers and with prayer, how God is revealing Godself and God’s plan for humanity throughout the whole of Scripture.
I’d also point you to our denomination’s (I’m totally bragging on the Covenant here
! ) resources on this issue — you can read the booklet online or order one to keep. It’s a very thorough Biblical look at the full inclusion of women in ministry.
Here it is: http://www.covchurch.org/uploads/q4/j5/q4j5-Suwm12wdoCnz31YwQ/Called-and-Gifted.pdf
Chris Brogan wrote a post about the lack of women business leaders recently and he said that, “maybe they [the numbers] point to the fact that it’s not always the position some women seek to attain.”
I think this is true. BUT I don’t think it should stop us from working to figure out how we can better equip women who want to lead, women who want to speak in Church, women who are gifted to share their gifts.
I think we live in a time where there are so many opportunities for women but I think that we (or at least me) are still intimidated to raise our hands and say I want this. And then work to make it ours.
Btw – I love Bianca. If I could put her in my pocket I would. She stands out because she keeps it real. Not an easy thing for some of us to do!
This is the line I keep thinking along as well. I heard Elizabeth Vargas (20/20 anchor) say on Oprah that the American mentality of “you can have it all” is really a lie. As someone with a demanding, nationally recognized career, Vargas said she had to make choices about where her gifts and talents took her. That realization was the reason she gave up her Nightly News gig and moved the the less demanding 20/20 job so she could spend more time with her children.
I have no doubt woman capable of rising to these levels of prominence in the preaching careers, but preaching careers demand a lot of time, energy, study, and travel. Many capable women CHOOSE a different life – not because they are forced to but because they know they must choose to either be there for their families or be absent often. I know of women who choose the life of travel and recognition and they do it with grace and character. But many others choose to make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches instead. Or choose to stay near their ailing parents. Or choose to work among the poor where only a handful of grateful house church members will ever hear her eloquent Biblical expositions.
I doubt that this will be popular, but is it possible that women are more capable of choosing this path of invisibility? Men are stereotypically more career driven while women are stereotypically more inclined to nurturing roles (stereotypes come from somewhere!). I think it’s possible, and obviously just one perspective among the many here to consider.
I’ll speak for myself, here, but in spite of what I’m passionate about saying… it’s a matter of not truly believing that I would be taken seriously or that people – men, especially – would want to hear what’s on my heart. Women speakers seem to be saved for women’s events.
I would love to see some of the men in key leadership roles bring women to the forefront, as a “blessing” of sorts to set an example for the church and for Christian organizations. Not that we need validation in God’s eyes, but we do need some sort of backing/platform from which to launch (in order to be taken seriously by the public).
I know it sounds backwards to ask for male blessing, but when we’re up against centuries of male voices and strong opinions of women in ministry, I think it is more important that I might’ve initially wanted to admit.
As a woman in full time ministry I really appreciate this discussion. Yet I wonder if the issue is a bit more complex due to the fact that a regular preaching gig is most likely tied to a pastoral calling in a particular church? I’m privileged to be in a denominational which is fairly open to women (Foursquare) and to be on a church staff where I am welcomed at the highest levels of leadership. Although I have preached, I am not a regular, but nor are several of my male co-workers. None of us see this as stance of discrimination, but rather an issue of calling and gifting.
Not only would I love seeing more women preaching, but more women at the heart of church leadership. I wonder if this is one reason that more women are not regulars in preaching because they are not part of the core leadership of churches?
Heather Zempel out of NCC is a great example of both leading and preaching.(http://discipleshipgroups.blogspot.com/)
You know, I’ve been looking at all the responses (and bravo gang for speaking in love all throughout) and to me it boils down to this: Jesus.
Is a woman gonna die and go to hell for preaching the Gospel? I think not. Is a congregation gonna die and go to hell for listening to a woman preach the Gospel? I think not. But we will die and go to hell if we don’t act on the Gospel. Regardless of whose telling it.
If you want to die without Jesus because you can’t get past the preacher’s race/gender/politics/favorite racecar driver etc… then by all means, that’s up to you. But it seems a tad ridiculous to me.
Word.
I loved reading this discussion. It is a topic I am passionate about. My husband and I pastor together. I also have two small children and am about to add a third to the clan. Although I love to preach, I am somewhat limited by opportunity right now due to my role as a mother.
I have noticed in church culture that women typically are labeled with a stereotype that says “I am not interested.” At least in the circles I have traveled in, men tend to assume women would rather be out shopping than sit in on the lengthy eldership meeting. The thought is that women may want to say something short and sweet, they don’t want to spend the time to prepare a legitimate message. And that maybe they want to preach every once in a while, but they don’t want to carry the burden of leadership that comes from continually being in the spotlight. In my estimation, men assume that we women are a whole lot more fragile than we really are. I think it may come out of a good place in their hearts that want to value, shelter and protect but as a woman, I want respect too. I hate being put in a box by assumptions. And I especially hate it when I get classified with a whole group instead of being understood as an individual.
The greatest advantage I have been given as a woman preacher is that my husband believes in everything I have been called to be. The first step for any woman in stepping into the call of God for her life lies in how the people directly around her view her. It is so much easier to take on the mindsets and assumptions of what other people think about me when I have my husband cheering me on at home.
My husband and I are working hard to raise up young people (we are youth pastors) who believe women are intelligent, strong, and worthy of respect. And I would say that it is working at some level. I haven’t preached in a little while and it has been the young men who have been asking when I will be returning to the pulpit. That makes me proud- mostly because I know that the young women preachers that we are raising up will have a group of young men cheering them on as they pursue the will of God.
Thanks for starting this discussion!
This is so great! I am a graduate of a Bible college and soon to be a licensed pastor in the Foursquare denomination. I attend a church that says it supports women in leadership, but their actions don’t match their words. Currently at my church (with a regular attendance of 75) there are at least 10 women who have been formally trained in ministry and exegesis (bible study). Not one of us has ever been asked to speak or lead a class. The same 3 men are always the go-to guest speakers: the worship pastor, youth pastor and another Bible college grad. For all of the Women’s events my church has held in the last 10 years the Sr. Pastor’s wife has spoke or an outside guest speaker has been brought in. The next generation of women leaders are not being given the same opportunities as the men. In fact, when I’ve told people that I am going to be licensed the normal response is, “Why?” The assumption seems to be that my ministry is linked to my husband’s, so why do I need to be licensed?
As much as I love and support my husband and his calling, I have my own calling to ministry. I want to speak, to encourage, to train up anddisciple. I love that you’re having this conversation here and I hope it leads to more conversations within the local church.
I havent read all of the comments (so she may have eve responded)… but I know and love Bianca and she is amazing. She does work regularly at a church, and she does speak on a regular basis. Often outside of her home church. She has amazing gifts and God is using her big time!
I am a woman and I am a full time youth pastor. I adore my teens and absolutely believe God called me and is using me. Enough said.
i see this so often in the missions world.
a couple years ago a guy ripped me to shreds over the fact that i’m ordained. mind you, this came moments after being commended for all the work “y’all” do. i guess he meant the work my husband did. apparently all he thought i was good for was being the trophy wife that hung on the preacher’s arm. he point blank told me that it was wrong for me to be in leadership in ministry AT ALL and being ordained was just icing on the sinful cake.
now that i’m a single, divorced woman in ministry, i know the odds are even more stacked against me. to some, i had more value as the pastor’s wife than i do as… me.
i know some solid female communicators out there who i wish had more opportunities and platforms to speak to the Church. not because they’re female. but because they have anointing, wisdom, and powerful messages of truth.
yes yes yes Alece… “not because they’re female. but because they have anointing, wisdom, and powerful messages of truth.” that sums it up for me.
oh and about the missions thing… when i was on the mission field as a single female missionary, it seemed like i was regularly asked to assist other missionaries by babysitting, cleaning, cooking, and organizing events. i did it, because i wasn’t going to refuse but i learned early on that if i wanted to get something more concrete done, i’d have to team up with people that would give me opportunity. i ended up teaming with 2 other organizations on the side. Somedays i’d wake up early, go clean a missionary’s house, then go teach at the American church in paris and then babysit some missionary kids that night. double duty, but i did what i had to do;)
girl, come to africa. we will utilize your skills for sure!
(and i’m all chuckles re-reading my comment. ummm… “trophy wife” was totally supposed to be “token wife”. oops. ha!)
haha! i laughed when i read that… i mean, well you aren’t shallow like a trophy wife, but you sure are hot diggity like one! lol and i’d go to Africa in a heartbeat. i’d go anywhere. but i just need to hear from Him first;)
Nancy Leigh DeMoss
http://www.reviveourhearts.com/
What a can of worms indeed. Great job los. Love the conversation.
I would love to speak at my church, but I’m honestly too afraid to bring it up. We’re talking about people on our staff who can communicate and it’s like the women aren’t even in the room.
My friend, Paula Watson, is leading a Youth Ministry nearby and she seriously brings it. She has a gift for sure. She doesn’t have anything online, but she should: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=587657307&ref=ts
i’m wondering if part of the issue here is visibility. i used to live in southern california, and a good number of churches i visited there had female preachers and speakers as part of the regular leadership staff. but they were all small churches.
another thing, i think, is that there are a lot of parachurch groups that have female speakers and leaders. during my time in college, i got the chance to meet and listen to dozens of really, really, REALLY amazing women of God who could just bring it. i think the absence of traditional church structure gave space for them to step into that calling, without much censure. and i like that. a lot.
Los, it’s refreshing to see this conversation being facilitated. I am the worship leader for Bishop Tony Miller @thecathedralokc. I have been leading worship in various circles for about 20 years now. Growing up and for a large part of my adult life I was a member of a Southern Baptist church in a small town in South Carolina. I thank God for my roots in that denomination, because it taught me a love for God’s word and gave me a passion for missions that will be with me for the rest of my life.
As a young “baptist boy,” there were two things I was taught and would fight almost to the death over in the church. Those were divorced people and women in positions of leadership in the church. These two just were not accepted and it was amazing to me, even as a young man, how we would allow men who had committed murder or were drug dealers, etc and had spent time in prison and met the Lord to come into our churches and preach and hold revivals and such. We would celebrate them as if they were the greatest thing ever!
I had a close friend who was just a normal guy. He had never been in any kind of trouble to speak of or anything like that but, like most of us was not a christian until after he was into his late 20′s. When he got saved, he REALLY got saved and his whole goal in life was to preach and teach the Gospel. He studied and became an amazing communicator of the word of God, but no one would ever allow him to use his gift because, when he got saved, his wife of several years decided she did not want to be married to a man who “had religion.” He did everything he could, short of renouncing his relationship with Christ, to save his marriage but she left anyway.
To this day he is still unable to do any kind of ministry because he is still in the Baptist church and they still will not allow him to minister.
When I was around 32 years old, a friend of mine who was a Methodist pastor asked me to come do the music at his church for a couple of weeks until they could find a music minister. I did and ended up staying there for a year. Six months into my time there, my friend got promoted to a larger church and they got the info on the person who would become their new pastor. This is where my life took a funny turn.
The problem with this person was not that they were uneducated or inexperienced. This person had a wonderful resume and a pages long list of accolades.
The problem was that “SHE was DIVORCED!” Get it? The two things I, as a Baptist, would fight you over God was making me face head on! I immediately said that I would resign because I just couldn’t serve under that. My friend came to me and asked me to “give her a chance” and I agreed out of respect for him.
On her first Sunday, I went to do my job with no expectation of hearing or experiencing anything that would change my mind. Boy was I wrong! As she took the podium in her traditional robe with the rope tie around the waist and began to speak, it was as if God himself were in the room speaking to me directly. I had never heard such wisdom, such passion, such love for people and such knowledge of God’s word. I sat there and wept the entire time she spoke. My life was completely changed. After the service, I went straight to her and begged her to forgive me for judging her because of what she had no control over.
I know this has been long, but I wanted to share with you be cause I believe that these are the “Last Days” that Joel spoke of in chapter 2 verse 28 and 29 when he said “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.”
My prayer is that we will continue this journey toward hearing the voice of God in the earth and not silence His voice just because it does not come packaged in a male voice, wearing a suit and tie, and having lived a “perfect” life. We are ALL His handiwork and he will use any one who is willing to be his servant!!!
Thanks for starting this!
Joey
Love the conversation. This issue has been one that’s made it hard for me to find a church in my current city — not because of women preaching, but because a lot of the churches believe women can’t teach men. Maybe young boys — although why that’s different …. And I certainly understand their biblical position, but my God is not a God of wastefulness. Why would He give women a gift of teaching and then not want them to use it! I know both sexes are created in His image and both have so many things to offer the church. I hope someday it’s a place that embraces both genders — on and off the platform. Thanks for opening the discussions.
Ug! I’m struggling with an issue akin to this right now in the little church where I’m leading worship. A few weeks ago, the deacons had a meeting… pastor came to me (I’m female) and told me that the invitation I give during the last song was making people “uncomfortable” and the deacons requested that I stop talking from the pulpit. Otherwise, they “love” what I do, they “love” my energy, etc. Completely disheartening.
So stoked to finally hear Bianca’s name being brought up on a much larger platform. I have the honor and priviledge to be part of her home church and attending her summer series for the past 3 years. Looking forward to the next summer series on James starting in July. The Lord is using that girl, that’s for sure!!
So…this reminds me of a similar situation last year when my daughter’s small, Christian school was in dire financial trouble. They were pleading with parents to raise funds and step-up and keep the school afloat (in addition to the tuition we had already paid). They also needed a new board member, and my husband nominated me (logical choice–I’m a former small business owner, and will defend for my PhD in EDUCATION in March). How astonished-and embarrased and angry-I was to learn that “our” school did not believe that women should be on the board. I find it an insult that they would take my money to educted my daughter, yet in theory, the church/school leadership thinks I should really put an apron on her and tell her to “get to baking” once she grows up. (Trust me–that was not in the contract I signed!) Needless to say, she is now in Catholic school.
Anyway, I just can’t believe that God gives women talents if he doesn’t expect us to use them for His glory. To segue….we are going to talk. Preaching is much better than gossiping, LOL!
Ummm…about those spelling errors…”educate” my daughter….(Yes, I really am THAT close to a PhD, haha!)
Hey I’d like to ask a question.
I know plenty of men who are opposed to female preachers/pastors/leaders/speakers/whathaveyou because they say that women aren’t supposed to be in authority over men. And yet these same men will go to work Monday thru Friday with a female for a boss/supervisor. Why is that?
Good question.
This boils down to a view of spiritual authority verses worldly authority. Clearly, there are going to be women in all facets of life where they are put in authority over men. Take for instance our government. When a woman is elected President (maybe even a daughter of Los!!), there would be no basis for saying that men do not have to submit to their authority. But in the Church, God ordained things to be different. And some believe that God saved the role of spiritual authority for men.
Can’t tell you how much I appreciate this dialogue. I couldn’t agree more that women are as equally gifted as men. For many, our grasp of biblical truth is deeper and more accurate than our male counterparts. We are competent in biblical exegesis; we fall behind in no gift; and we are passionate to serve our Christ. To God be the glory for all of these things!
But I must be honest. Many have shared their desire to preach to the whole church, and this is puzzling. Isn’t the whole church really a large majority of women and a small percentage of men? Why would it not be sufficient to preach to the largest portion of the church? Are we allowing the enemy to take our eyes off of the tremendous privilege (undeserved I may add) to minister to women? What is making us seek the privilege of preaching to men? Is it a need for validation?
I think we should be very careful to not spurn the doors that God opens widely for ministry. Let’s not sit on our gifts, hoarding them, waiting for larger opportunities!
Let’s serve our Christ well…time is of the essence!
As someone who has attended numerous denominations and traditions (all Bible believing and in agreement on the essentials) I’ve seen this argument go ’round and ’round. Like any other ambiguous (I know some of you don’t believe it is) issue I think where you choose to err says a great deal about what you think about God, His church, and your part of the story. These kind of things always cause us to wrestle with Him a bit and that always results in a better understanding of who He is. Thanks be to God who didn’t make everything absolutely clear all at once; we would surely start to neglect Him if we knew everything.
I do have a couple of questions. Do you think Paul outlined the characteristics of an overseer based upon the issues He was seeing, and since women weren’t the issue at the present moment, or in that church, he just didn’t identify women as being overseers? When do we decide that Paul was speaking to a particular cultural context and when he wasn’t?
And if it is just about the “covering,” couldn’t a woman pastor be covered by the denomination?
Second, aren’t women “pastoring” “overseeing” children’s ministry with a gender varied staff? Why will we allow them to oversee children and women’s ministries but not a church? It seems when we need women to take authority we switch the definition. Isn’t that just a little tad convenient?
Lastly, to the reference to Jesus’ ministry, I believe He was a sociologist like no other and knew what would be the most effective vehicle to spread the message. He chose His disciples very carefully for the task at hand which was to go out with the initial message. Do all of our current overseers/pastors match their exact characteristics, probably not. Yes, He did not select women as the 12, although there were women who followed Him just as closely as the disciples, He also didn’t dismiss the possibility either. There are a great deal of cultural elements that are not directly mentioned or dealt with in the Bible or by Jesus. There are denominations that won’t play guitars in worship because they wern’t mentioned in the New Testament. I’m not sure “Jesus didn’t do it or say it” is the best argument because that has a great deal of implications for what we do in church, because most of what we do these days, is not mentioned in the Bible nor engaged in by Jesus.
I’m not called to be a pastor of a church but I do want to minister to people and that might include sharing something that God has put on my heart and mind. To not be allowed to even explain a verse for the context of a worship song or to be able to pray for or with the congregation out of fear of being interpreted as “teaching,” then I think we might be on the outside of what God intended. I know not every church has these extremes, but they are out there, even in liberal California.
Sorry, don’t mean to monopolize but something else I just thought of. What do we make of female “pastors” who’s ministries are bearing a great deal of fruit? Darlene Zchech’s title is “Pastor” and she teaches at their conferences and within her church. Would we really argue that her ministry has not been fruitful? Why would God honor something that is against His design? If God is choosing to use it even if it isn’t “the plan” then shouldn’t we offer the same grace that He seems to be offering?
Funny. This is so crazy timely. I am a pastor at a church plant in St. Paul, Minn., called Bloom. The two senior co-pastors are male. And last Sunday I shared my very first message from stage…and they’ve made it clear there is more to come.
All I can say is wow. God proved to me on Sunday that He is hell-bent (ironic, I know) on using me for His purpose. Sunday wasn’t about me. He made it about the message. And, he proved to me that He most certainly led the way.
Speaking was something I needed to do…because it’s one of the things He’s called me to do. And you can bet your behind that I’m working to help all of the young women in our congregation know that God sees neither male, nor female. A call is a call. Period.
Nearly a year ago I was ordained at our church. When faced with the question of being a pastor, I suddenly was scared of what all the naysayers would say (thanks to general legalistic expectations that squelch callings). God did some major work with my confidence and feelings of insufficiency…thanks in big part to the two male leaders who are more like my big brothers. The big thing is they’re committed to helping people (like me) discover what God has planted inside of them.
We need more people to give the ladies confidence…and the platform. All are equal in the eyes of God…all have equal grace. And, the grace is unending. So really, what’s there to be afraid of?!
THANK YOU for tackling this. I LOVE the discussion.
Teaching is my favourite part of my job as a youth pastor. But in my current position, I’m not allowed to teach adults. I can see both sides of the argument, but there is something important that isn’t theological that I’d like to say.
A woman preaches differently to a man. We tackle things in an entirely unique way most of the time – experience and theology combine, the fault we’d fall into is that we are too experiential but not theological enough… guys fall the opposite way, I’ve found.
I’m a half decent woman preacher.
Minneapolis has great woman speaking it up!
Joelle Hassler
Heather Flies
Jill Fox
Laural Bunker
Stephanie Williams
and much much more…but really all of these women work with men who get it and empower them to lead and speak…so step it up men!
Los,
So many awesome comments. I have written about women in ministry a lot. But I will just say this. I chose Fuller Seminary when I did my MDiv because of their empowerment and encouragement of women to all aspects of ministry. All roles…all positions. I loved being on a campus where around 50% or more than that were women. And I chose to work in the PCUSA where women are ordained as pastors. I have just found it important to work in churches that support women in this way…and not just as lip service. Just something I have to think through when I decide whether or not I want to attend or work at a church. What is their view of women in ministry?
Rhett
I guess I will finish my part here with one last thought…make that two.
First, I am very impressed with everyone’s ability to remain respectful and loving with their comments. I spend some time on other blogs and am generally amazed at how Christians will speak to each other through the computer, and I’ve seen none of this here. I think it’s a testament to Los’ character. The people that come here and spend time and invest energy and thought into his posts do so because they respect his ideas and character. People who are only interested in arguing and being disrespectful know that Los isn’t down with that. So kudos to all of us, and kudos to Los!!
Second…my real point. I think the biggest concern I have for this is something that I have mentioned in an above reply. I’m worried that we have elevated the role of pastors/teachers far too much. Now, clearly, it is good for people to desire that role. The Bible says so. I’m not disagreeing with that. But I think that because of the “superstar” pastor culture we have now with preachers like Driscoll, Chandler, Chan, etc. (all of whom I respect and listen to regularly), evangelicals in particular have elevated that post and a part of it is wanting to be seen. That is why the woman above who mentioned noticing her heart was being prideful in her desire to take part in Nines was so admirable to read. How many of us, male or female, desire that role so that we can be seen and respected for our talents? I am definitely guilty of that. I deeply desire to spread the Gospel to those who do not know, and I understand the power of the pulpit to carry that out. But I still want to be noticed. I’m afraid that this thought is what drives most of this debate. If Jesus asks me to spend the rest of my life serving him in a deacon role in my church, so be it. I will serve that way until He takes me home. If He asks me to preach/teach in His church, I will do that as well. But I do not want my ability and my skill and my talent to be what people notice. I heard a story once that a worship leader got off the stage after his first time leading and asked the pastor how he did. The pastor’s response was “You did such a good job, everyone noticed you. No one noticed Jesus.” That is what I’m afraid will happen when we keep desiring to preach/teach because of our skill. I just want people to know Jesus.
I sincerely love you all for this discussion. I am very encouraged by it!!! God bless!
I agree – it’s the priesthood of all believers pointing to the glory of the Triune God – one of the many things I love about the Christian faith! Too many times we make our faith about ourselves and our role rather than God and His role.
Thanks Matt, for your thoughtful and clear thoughts on where scripture stands on this issue and at the same time, continuing with the discussion with further respectful posts. Your thoughts coming from the other side, in light of the seemingly many ppl who feel otherwise, I’m sure requires a lot of boldness and discernment.
I think it’s far deeper than desiring a title.
Women in the church are often seen as second-class citizens. You can’t possibly know how frustrating it is for a pastor to gladly accept your hard-earned money to support his “vision” for the church, but not your thoughts.
It’s agonizing to know that as a woman I’m free to stand behind the pulpit to sing and entertain the congregation, but not share my testimony about what Jesus has done for me.
I can cook in the kitchen and run myself ragged in the nursery…but I can’t speak in the business meeting to give my ideas as to how to best serve the congregation in those areas.
I think. I reason. I have a brain. God gave it to me. But because I’m a woman, the church…even in this day and age…doesn’t want me to use it. Offer my service, offer my prayers yes…but my brain…well…no. But thank you for playing.
I don’t want to be a pastor/preacher. I’m not asking for applause (and neither are most women) or recognition for my actions in the church because I do what I do for Jesus. No one else.
But I would appreciate being treated like I’m an adult and not a child. Still, if I never get what my idea of “fair treatment” is, I’m not worried about it. Jesus more than makes up for any injustice the world or the church might inflict. One day, He’s gonna set everything that’s wrong, right.
And as far as I’m concerned…that’s all right.
Shayne,
I appreciate what you are saying here. I think if that is how you are being treated in your church, it is just simply wrong. I do not believe the Bible gives any church the right to make women second class citizens or act as if they have no right to have input into the workings of the church. I can only speak for the churches that I know of, but I know that the network of churches that I belong to, women are treated with respect and honor, even though we do not believe they should hold a pastor/preacher/elder/overseer title. Women staff members are not simply secretaries. They are respected members of the church whose opinions are considered and honored. I think that is how the church needs to operate. I definitely think that historically the church has done a poor job of honoring its members who are woman, and there is no excuse for that. But I do think that there is a huge wave of change going through the evangelical church. Look at places like New Spring (Perry Noble), The Village Texas (Matt Chandler), Mars Hill (Mark Driscoll), The Journey (Darrin Patrick) and you will see churches that, while sharing my views on women overseer/pastor/elders, preach and teach and demand that women are respected and honored in the church. That is how it should be. Women are not simply there to do the dishes and change diapers. They should be free to use their gifts in the ways that the Holy Spirit chooses, and if that is not allowed, it is not Biblical. I’m sorry that the church has done such a poor job of doing their job. I believe that if more churches allowed their women members to faithfully serve using their gifts, this would be less of a divisive issue. The church is not perfect, but I do love Her anyway!!!
lol… and when i say “clear thoughts” I really meant “clear insights” sorry it’s late..
Hello! This is my first time posting on this blog. I’ve lurked for quite some time, and have really enjoyed everything I’ve read.
I could go on and on about how when properly interpreted (taking culture into account, looking at the context of certain verses, etc.) the Bible allows women to be ministers. There are others who can do this a lot better than I can, so I’ll just refer you to Stanley Grentz, Mary Stewart Van Leeuwen, Rebecca Groothuis, John Temple Bristow, among others. A quick Amazon search for these authors will give you some great stuff.
Now, some Biblical scholars here might throw Bibles at me because I see no distinction between pastor/preacher/teacher/leader/head minister/minister of congregational care/leader of parachurch ministry/missionary, etc. I firmly believe in the priesthood of all believers. We’re all ministers. I think this is key because I’ve heard some say that women can teach but not be head ministers, etc. Good heavens. (Ouch! A Bible just bounced off my head.)
One concern that I have in this area is how prohibiting women from leadership is hurting the spread of the Gospel. The world is watching Christians, and how we treat women is turning many people off to Christ. I know because I hear them. They see women succeeding in every area of society only to be treated like glorified children by many Christians. I’ve also heard Christian women talk about how they’re treated with real respect outside of the church but not inside it. We’ve really let God down when non-believers act better than we do. I can’t help but wonder if some men misuse certain verses just to prop up their self-esteem. Something to think about… By the way, my church has two awesome female ministers!
Great discussion everyone!
I am a female church planter in South Carolina, a huge fan of Andy Stanley, Craig Groeschel, Perry Noble and the like, deeply evangelical and I strive to be faithful and grounded in Scripture in everything I do. I am also a wife and a mother of a 17-month old boy.
I love Jesus, love my family and love, love, love that I have the opportunity and privilege to communicate with my church every week! You can check out our church at http://www.ashleyridgechurch.org and you can find my preaching on iTunes if you search for Ashley Ridge Church.
I’m 29 years old and in my 7 years of pastoral experience I have found that this is a conversation that is best forwarded in demonstration. I’m living in the very traditional south where I would lose arguments with a lot of people who are opposed to the idea of female pastors. I have chosen to forego the argument and simply do what I have been called to do as faithfully and diligently as possible. In doing so, I hope I have allowed Jesus to come forward and my identity, including my gender, to fade to the background. I don’t want to hide from who I am and the person God has created me to be, but I don’t want that to be my issue. My claim is Christ alone. I’ve seen that attitude and mentality change the minds and hearts of many whom I’ve encountered.
In short, the more women with incredible speaking and pastoral gifts who people can see, the more things will shift and the more God will get the glory!
Thanks for this discussion!
That’s a great attitude! Living out your gifts and focusing on God will help people stop reading the Bible through the lenses of their own prejudices and insecurities.
There is no way I can read through all the comments so This has probably been covered, but don’t you think these women speaking to primarily women has a lot to do with the fact that most men won’t go to a woman to get taught? (hence the nines votes going to primarily men)
I think it takes more male leaders in the church realizing that God has gifted women to speak as well and being comfortable that they can learn a thing or two from what God is revealing to us.
I was in the Democratic Republic of Congo in May–a place that constantly lands itself in the news for its rape crisis. A place where women routinely carry loads nearly as heavy as they are on their heads and backs. A place where seeing a woman in jeans or pants is rare.
The irony is, I felt more valued by the church there as a woman than I do at my church back home, which isn’t a “traditional” church. In Congo, I was asked to pray in a mixed-group setting. Another woman and I preached at one of the local churches when we were asked to. Our opinions were valued and sought out.
My church’s position is the same as the one Matt and others have discussed here. I’m not sure where I stand. I don’t want to dismiss those arguments outright. There are some difficult scriptures used to support them. I don’t want to be too quick to write those ideas off. And I respect the leaders of my church and their decision to not allow women to hold positions of leadership over men, to not teach/preach mixed groups.
I’ve seen situations in my church where an unqualified male was put in a leadership role instead of a qualified female simply because of his gender.
And I couldn’t shake the irony of being in the Congo, wearing a skirt down to my ankles, and feeling like for the first time in my life my thoughts about scripture were valued by anyone other than another woman.
Los, thanks for the encouraging conversation. So good that there are places like this where we all can work it out. The church needs many more places where we can lovingly debate, potentially disagree and move forward with more grace and truth. You obviously know where I stand on this being both a pastor and preacher and loving every minute of it.
i got this from john piper’s web site:
Duncan spoke first about the biblical and theological foundation of women’s ministry in a local church and how that relates to the pastoral ministry of the church. He offered four biblical truths to be a foundation for doing women’s ministry in the local church.
Our understanding of biblical manhood and womanhood must be rooted in the created order. Genesis is our starting point for understanding biblical manhood and womanhood (Genesis 1:26-27). The distinction in the created order is what gives us the distinctions in the church.
Our ministry to men and women must be rooted in a proper understanding of the doctrine of God. When we teach biblical manhood and womanhood we must recourse all the way back to the doctrine of God. The biblical foundation for women’s ministry is going to root womanhood in the doctrine of God because part of being created in his image is bearing the different distinctions of the Trinity.
Biblical manhood and womanhood must be rooted in the doctrine of the work and person of Christ, therefore if we are to do women’s ministry in the local church we are to root it in the doctrine of Christ. Jesus is the example of what submission looks like. The work and submission of Christ radically reorients Christian service for Christian women because it is exactly what our Savior has done.
Our understanding of biblical manhood and womanhood must be rooted in the doctrine of the church (1 Timothy 2:8-10). Paul is not simply stating an opinion; he is telling Timothy how it should be done in every church. If egalitarianism were true then this would be the perfect opportunity to state it, but Paul does not go there.
Hunt followed Duncan’s presentation with practical applications for women’s ministry in the local church. She brought a wealth of life experience and wisdom to her talk based on her years of ministry to women. Going off of Duncan’s biblical foundations Hunt gave an apologetic of womanhood practically played out in five different ways: submission, compassion, community, discipleship, and scripture. Through these principles, she sought to answer the five questions posed in the book Women’s Ministry in the Local Church. Understanding biblical womanhood to manifest itself in “life giving” rather than “life taking,” she unpacked these five principles by pointing to the Pastoral Epistles (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus).
In submission, women must follow the ecclesiastical leadership that God has given them. The women’s ministry must be submitted to the male leadership for approval, but so must every other discipleship ministry. We also see the qualifications for male headship in that women are called to submit to godly leaders not tyrants. This should be seen as a security for women, not a hindrance.
A vibrant women’s ministry can come alongside the diaconal ministries of the church because they are compassionate.
When a women’s ministry is characterized by community we see what it means to truly be the family of God. The widows in the New Testament were credentialed by a life of the ordinary stuff that makes covenant community life extraordinary.
Gender specific discipleship, as seen in Titus 2:3-5, is so important because we would never on our own come to an understanding of what it means to be a life-giver. Gender specific disicipleship that focuses on principles about what God says about our womanhood must be taught because women are hearing something in the culture and what they are hearing is not God’s way.
In 2 Timothy 3:2-17 we see that Timothy’s mother and grandmother taught him the Scriptures from infancy. Here we see the principles of the foundation and sufficiency of Scripture. If there are core biblical principles, women’s ministry can be the church’s greatest delight for men and women. If not, then it will be your worst nightmare.
I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with Piper et. al on their Bible interpretation.
Can you explain where you disagree and why?
it seems that after all this conversation, not much has changed. but with the conversation, challenges are made, people are pushed toward defining their position and we hear of true stories – proof of the dilemma. even when scripture is quoted it often carries the philosophy like a great tail on high flying kite. it may be hard to legislate the release of women to fulfill God’s assignment in the environment of ignorance and prejudice, but the work of the Holy Spirit can’t be legislated, harnessed or blocked. women simply must listen to God. He is not blind nor deaf…and He knows the plight. trust in Him and He can and will direct you to creative, even hidden ways, of expressing God on behalf of His great purposes. my point is, regardless of what we face among men…we continue in the assignment and endure the hardship, believing that God will prevail. truly, we must be reminded that while we wrestle as to the gender allowed for “the message”…a rendering of “the message” is often left without expression and may even be hidden from the one’s who need it most…those without our Christ! at His feet, I heard hundreds of ideas for reaching those outside the “church” and found souls who were responsive out of hunger and lack…who did not ask for my gender credentials, educational credentials, or my photo portfolio! continue on behalf of the whispered words of our Lord…and grow His kingdom from the vineyards left wanting and the wine with be sweet!
Please forgive me if I read this wrong, but I take issue with your characterization that those of us that interpret Scripture to say that some roles are reserved only for men are “in the environment of ignorance and prejudice.” I hope you are not saying that all of those that come down on the side of Complementarianism are ignorant and prejudiced. I would not go so far as to say that none of it is born of ignorance, but to say that all of us of this opinion are ignorant is simply wrong. My concern was that if I read it like this, others might as well, and if that was not what you intended, I hope you can clarify.
Matt,
“all of those that come down on the side…” are not directly being referred to. i always appreciate the student and those who are open to all of mankind.
Hope this clarifies.
Berna
Thanks for bringing this issue out!
I have to give a shout out to Priscilla Shirer (daughter of Dr. Tony Evans). The girl can “teach” and preach if you ask me! She blows me away everytime I hear her!
http://www.goingbeyond.com/
I think there are more out there then we know, or maybe are even willing to get to know.
Carlos,
Thank you for encouraging this conversation. I forget sometimes what women who are called to preach go through. I am in a United Methodist Church, and we as Methodists have been ordaining women to preach and lead congregations for a long time now. This year, at our annual conference, the most powerful time of preaching came from Dr. Joy Moore, a professor at Duke Divinity School.
It is my prayer that women will be given a voice from the pulpit in more denominations.
Our church http://www.sanctuarycov.org/ has an amazing preacher who happens to be a woman. Her name is Cecelia Williams and though she doesn’t preach every week, the weeks she does? She BRINGS it! She is anointed and amazing.
You’ll notice in 1 Timothy 3:1 the apostle Paul wrote, “If any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do” (emphasis added). The office of church leadership–specifically a pastor or an elder–is limited to men. The conclusion is supported by Paul’s use of the masculine gender in the context.
Earlier in chapter 2 Paul said, “Let a women quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet (vv. 11-12). In the Old Testament we read of no female priests. Although women such as Deborah and Miriam occasionally spoke for God, none of them had an ongoing prophetic ministry. In the New Testament we do not see women identified as apostles, elders, or evangelists. Nor were any books of the Bible written by women.
God has given women a different role in the church. Men and women are equal in spiritual privilege, capacity, blessedness, and promise. Both are able to serve the Lord effectively. But the responsibility of overseeing a church is limited to men
Let me also say that women ARE totally in the clear when it comes to teaching women groups! If you check out Beth Moore she agrees with this, and says women should not teach men. I heard her say that once at a “Focus on the Family Marriage Conference” Infact she said it several times, “I really don’t feel like i should be teaching here, due to the fact that there are men here.” NOT saying women are not to teach, but its in a different area.
Forgive me for being very basic and simplistic with what I’m about to say. Aren’t we as Christians ALL supposed to be equipped in the truth and reality of God’s relevant, living word? From the young girl that goes on her first mission trip..to the young woman who leaves home to go to college. Weren’t we commissioned to ALL go out and preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, as Christ followers? Aren’t we ALL supposed to baptise in the name of the Trinity? Aren’t we ALL preachers, examples, doers of the word? Is it as difficult as we are making it here? Is everything a battle among ourselves to get it just right? Spinning wheels, wasting time, meetings to plan the next meeting for the next meeting’s meeting. This is what this reminds me of….WE ALL are preachers. Maybe we don’t all get up in front of a BIG fancy, well-dressed, suburban audience with flashy lights and clever, “out of the box, no church has ever done this before stuff”..sunday after sunday..but guess what kids..every morning you should wake up and put on that”outfit” that Paul talked about. Why? ‘cuz you’re a preacher..IF you call yourself a Christ follower..
God has given women a different role in the church. Men and women are equal in spiritual privilege, capacity, blessedness, and promise. Both are able to serve the Lord effectively. But the responsibility of overseeing a church is limited to men
Not talking about “overseeing” a church. Talking about preaching. The organized church, IMO, is doing more harm than good in the furthering of the Kingdom of Christ.
when you preach you are overseeing the spritual wellbeing of those who preach to…so they are one in the same.
So I guess Mary running to tell the disciples and Peter that Jesus had risen (at the Lord’s command mind you) was totally out of line? Lots of people would and do consider that to be preaching.
Same thing with the woman at the well.
Or what about the people who came to Christ or re-dedicated their lives because of the sermons their mamas preached?
To me, we all have the responsibility of overseeing the “spiritual well-being” of the people around us. If we didn’t, the Lord would be unconcerned with our character and would allow us to live our lives in front of others in any way we choose. We don’t however, for love of Him and for love of His name.
I’ve heard it said at funeral homes time and again “I’m not gonna preach their funeral because this person’s life was a sermon.”
If you look at it like that, as others before me have said, women are preaching. Just because we are of a different gender doesn’t get us off the hook of telling others about Jesus. And for me? That’s the co-workers that I have…many of whom are men. My son, my own father (who came to Christ years after I did), my brothers…all of these are people I preach/teach to because they won’t set foot inside a church. These are the people whose “spiritual wellbeing” has been put into my care.
Don’t get me wrong…I see what you’re saying…but I hope you see what I’m saying as well.
that does make since…i can see that.
after reading this, I realized that the reference to the guy getting up on sundays in front of the “suburban audience” seemed like an attack on leaders on this page. NOT. I am on of these people who gets up in front of a congregation regularly to lead people in worship. I often feel like the least fit to do this. I do it. I check my heart. I attempt to stay in a right place with God and I do it. I am the last person that I would have guessed would “lead” or “preach” I am often the reluctant leader. I keep doing it.
Glory be to God for that my friend! Keep it up!
When we begin to look at women in the New Testament, the first thing we observe is how Jesus spent time with women and apparently enjoyed their companionship–in stark contrast to other men of His day. In the midst of the Greek, Roman and Jewish cultures, which viewed women almost on the level with possessions, Jesus showed love and respect for women.
Though Jewish rabbis did not teach women, Jesus not only included women in His audiences but used illustrations and images in His teaching which would be familiar to them (Matt. 13:33, 22:1-2; 24:41; Lk. 15:8-10). He also specifically applied His teachings to women (Matt. 10:34f).
While the Jewish Talmud said it was better to burn the Torah than teach it to a woman, Jesus taught women freely. To the Samaritan woman at the well (Jn. 4), He revealed that He was the Messiah. With her He also discussed such important topics as eternal life and the nature of true worship. Jesus never took the position that women, by their very nature, could not understand spiritual or theological truth. He also taught Mary and, when admonished by Martha, pointed out the priority of learning spiritual truth even over “womanly” responsibilities like serving guests in one’s home (Lk. 10:38-42).
Though men in Jesus’ day normally would not allow women to count change into their hands for fear of physical contact, Jesus touched women to heal them and allowed women to touch Him (Lk. 13:10f; Mk. 5:25f). Jesus even allowed a small group of women to travel with Him and His disciples (Lk. 8:1-3)–”an unprecedented happening in the history of that time,” said one commentator.
After His resurrection, Jesus appeared first to Mary Magdalene and sent her to announce His resurrection to the disciples (Jn. 20:1-18). Jesus did this despite the fact that women were not allowed to be witnesses in Jewish courts because they were all believed to be liars.
In Jesus’ treatment of women we see how He raised their station in life and how He showed them compassion and respect in a way that they had never known before. But Jesus still did not exalt women to a place of leadership over men. None of the Twelve he selected were women. Even at the cross where most of the men had fled and the women remained faithful, Jesus did not dismiss His male disciples and replace them with women. And Jesus made a radical break with His culture in so many ways that surely He would have done it in this way also if it had been God’s will. Jesus, in His treatment of women, demonstrated their equality and worth as persons, but He did not promote them to positions of leadership over men.
Jesus is fearless, free and radical. I adore him for that. I’m not sure that communicating the Gospel is like a promotion to leadership over men….ha ha…if it were, then I suppose no women would ever influence a man to believe in Christ and that has been a reality in my life….so…hmmmm what a surprising God we have! Aren’t we a silly bunch to limit God?!
I double-majored in college, and one of my major’s was children’s ministry. Even with only really working with children, my dad told me that I would never be employed by a church because I am female. I applied to a church where they told me I simply didn’t have enough experience, but later a friend told me that it was simply because I’m female.
I do go to a church though, where our youth minister is a female, and one of our Elders is female as well. The tides are changing, but very slowly.
Holah! So glad you brought this up! I mentioned this to the hubbs 2 years ago at CatWest….”Where are all the women speakers at?!” (We take our business team there for leadership development)
Then in the bookstore of the venue I noticed all the books being authored by women. Topics seemed to be limited to: motherhood, prayer, marriage etc.. The female speakers on stage were limited to those speaking briefly about their ministry but not necessarily what lessons they had learned from leading them.
The good news is that when we met recently with one of the organizers of Catalyst, they were totally open to putting more women speakers in the lineup. But asked the same question. “Where they at?!” =)
Just thought I’d share that little story here since I found it encouraging and maybe you will too. Go where you are celebrated ladies and grow, grow, grow so that you too can go, go, go!
What century are we in here? The 19th? Why do women attend churches where women aren’t speaking regularly.
Why not join churches with women pastors? If women just left churches that men ran and had no women preaching regularly or no women ministers at all, what does it say about women who keep going to these places?
I never go to a church without a female pastor or assistant pastor. I support women in ministry, we could all do this easily.
Not sexist, just Biblical. ; )
Pastor Debbie Salters – Thursday Church
http://www.thursdaychurch.org/Media___Podcast.html
Pastor Debbie Salter’s website is down for some reason.
I’ll check her out on the wider Internet. Thanks!
ok so i’m making this post have 300 now
GO ME!
This is such a crazy concept for me coming from CA. I grew up in a church with women pastors and while they weren’t the main senior pastor, they taught, from the pulpit, on sundays. Amazing.
Playing Devil’s advocate……Maybe we should be asking ourselves why more women haven’t stepped up to the plate to break the mold? Not that adversity isn’t hard, but let’s face it. David had to step up to Goliath. He didn’t necessarily wait for his brothers to get behind him and support him. So why are women waiting to be readily accepted before they step forward? Jesus didn’t.
History makers, when they have a vision don’t sit and wait for the majority to stand up to clap and embrace the idea. They go for it. They pray about it, understand it as God’s vision for their lives, and surround themselves with “early adopters” as we like to call it today.
I think everyone has a leader within them, in some capacity, but I also think in the church we have elevated SO many pastors and “leaders” that have a hard time of actually leading! So, do we want a women to speak because she’s a women or do we want her to speak because God has anointed her with a Word. We digress…another topic.
So, why aren’t women regularly communicating in our churches? Yes, cultural stigmas plague the churches view of “acceptable.” You know what…..my vision as a women isn’t to change their minds!
It’s to follow the path in which God has ordained me and let the Lord open hearts and minds to His Vision. Yes, we need change! I believe it!
The WHAT is what inspires me, the HOW is up to God!