You won’t burn in hell…but be nice anyways.
Why don’t I believe in God? No, no no, why do YOU believe in God? Surely the burden of proof is on the believer. You started all this. If I came up to you and said, “Why don’t you believe I can fly?” You’d say, “Why would I?” I’d reply, “Because it’s a matter of faith.” If I then said, “Prove I can’t fly. Prove I can’t fly see, see, you can’t prove it can you?” You’d probably either walk away, call security or throw me out of the window and shout, ‘’F—ing fly then you lunatic.”
There are people who need more than your faith…
They are sitting next to you and walking around you everyday.
I used to believe in God. The Christian one that is.
I loved Jesus. He was my hero. More than pop stars. More than footballers. More than God. God was by definition omnipotent and perfect. Jesus was a man. He had to work at it. He had temptation but defeated sin. He had integrity and courage. But He was my hero because He was kind. And He was kind to everyone. He didn’t bow to peer pressure or tyranny or cruelty. He didn’t care who you were. He loved you. What a guy. I wanted to be just like Him.
Go over and read Ricky Gervais’ blog post. It is fascinating and humbling and sad.
But I think it is something that every Christian needs to read.
So what does the question “Why don’t you believe in God?” really mean. I think when someone asks that they are really questioning their own belief. In a way they are asking “what makes you so special? “How come you weren’t brainwashed with the rest of us?” “How dare you say I’m a fool and I’m not going to heaven, f— you!”
So we need to answer Ricky…
What would you say to Ricky?
Los
RAIN IT DOWN
The sad thing is Jesus didn’t come to say “do this or you’ll burn in hell.”
If that was all Jesus did… well, I wouldn’t know about you or any other Christian artist.
Jesus came to love and just like Ricky’s childhood hero.
Unfortunately, many Christians today believe He came to make them into moral polices.
I’d listen.
Definitely want to know, does he not believe in God, or does he not believe in the god that we often re-present incorrectly to the masses?
either way, he has a story, its valid, and its his truth, and it deserves a listen… how will anyone begin to hear us if we don’t take the time to listen first?
Personally, I’m very much in agreement with Ricky Gervais which saddens me in my own personal journey. I grew up in a Christian home with a strong science background. I have had “supernatural” events happen to me and that ultimately has kept my faith intact for so long until a few years ago when I have had some big questions in my life. More and more I have seen science (not the ones that are skewed to ones religious beliefs like believing the world was created in 6 days) make more sense with the world. This of course created this uncertain fear and void but at the same time I do not want to lie to myself to the point I’m delusional and irrational. I am especially not too pleased when I feel like Christians has lost their way and sanity. There needs to be some sort of voice of reason that needs to emerge. I still go to church time to time because I don’t want to let go but at the same time I feel like I’m going there to believe in a lie and a place for people to feel better about themselves.
Coming from someone who was in a similar position that has gotten passed all of that, I can only tell that intentionally seeking Christ is the only way to move on. This could be actually truly giving your life to Christ and trusting Him despite your doubts, rededicating your life to Christ and/or getting (re)baptized. The longer that I seek God, the more I find that the questions and doubts that plagued me before lessen. There are so many things that can only be solved/answered through an active relationship with Him. And even when you officially begin your relationship with Him, things probably won’t automatically be better. Like everything in this life, healing takes time.
And just because science “proves” something doesn’t mean that it disproves God. (After all, even science states that everything-including its findings- is up for questioning. That’s why they’re called scientific theories.) You cited the traditional Biblical creation story. You can follow Christ and still believe in evolution, the big bang, multiple dimensions, heck, even aliens! What I have learned is that God is a whole lot bigger than those issues, and that their significance-for me- is a whole lot less than they used to be. Just because someone is struggling with doubt doesn’t discount a faith (which should be viewed separate from a social standpoint).
And I’m not going to lie, faith in Christ sometimes seems ridiculous, especially if you have an atheist background. But with time, God has helped me overcome those doubts to the point that I laugh at how much things regarding faith used to bother me!
And yes, you and all of us must come to terms that Christianity (specifically American Christianity) has many “followers” who are hypocritical. It can be easy to harp on this issue to the point it cripples us. However, there are many many true Christ followers out there who are doing their best to be Christ to those around them every day. We don’t come to God all cleaned up, we come to him ragged and broken. Through sanctification, a lifelong process, we begin to be more like Christ. It is troubling that many claim the name of Christ yet don’t live it out. They are either lying and are not in Christ, or are too stuck in the ways of this world to bother making any effort to change, which then makes it hard for me to believe that they are actually saved. You can tell who is really a Christ follower by their actions (otherwise known as the “fruit their lives bear”).
Going to church out of guilt and holding on to “supernatural events” of the past won’t make things better, either. Until we truly give way to faith, which will feel like a mix of rising insanity and falling, there is no chance for a change. It has taken me a long time to get to this point, and there is still miles to go, but when I look back on the road I’ve walked, I can see now how far Christ has carried me. My faith is no longer based on trying to scrounge up facts to defend or justify, but one based on a real relationship with the One and Only God.
And I say this for real, I’ll be praying for you.
Oh, and if you want to discuss this topic more, my e-mail is lukeellard@gmail.com
I do agree with a lot of what you have to say and understand your point of view. I have written it in a way that might not give the full picture of my beliefs because 1.it would take too long and 2.it’s of course a lot more complicated and personal than I have written above.
I do hope as I go through this journey called “life” I come to a conclusion where I am at peace and ever growing.
Thank you for your response.
Thank You Luke
There is a saying, “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. You can, however, salt the oats”
This is a man who is obviously not going to change his beliefs based on one conversation with a stranger. He’s really not interested in drinking the [living] water, so to speak (bad pun, sorry!)He’s not seeking, so he’s not finding.
I think what he needs is someone to be salt in his life. Live Christ in front of him. Someone who will listen to him and love him, but who will NOT compromise the Truth. Ever.
So maybe the best response to his “Why do you believe in God?” would be:
“Why do I believe in God? Well, because 20 years ago I met Him and He changed my life completely.” …and then walk away.
When he is interested enough in finding God, he will seek. And he will find.
I think my answer would be most like yours Hannah. I don’t know what I’d say. But I can tell you what I would do. Pray. Pray that God would tell me what to say and when to keep my mouth shut. Pray that the Holy Spirit would show Himself in a mighty way to Mr. Gervais. Because we do not save people. The Holy Spirit convicts people of sin and turns them to Christ. It’s our job to be ready, willing, and obedient to speak when Christ tells us to (make the most of every opportunity). On a side note, to the very popular argument the age that Christians are hypocrites and that’s why I choose not to believe. I would humbly say this…Christians aren’t super human. They are weak people who believe in a big God who sent His Son to save us. We struggle to be more like Christ but often fail. Praise God for His grace! The truth of who Christ is and why He came isn’t contigent on Christians’ behavior. Can our behavior make it more difficult for people to see Christ? Sometimes. But it doesn’t change the truth.
Arrghh! *the age* should have been deleted. See? Christians aren’t perfect. Just look at my typing errors
I’ve been thinking all day about what my response may be and Hannah, I think you’ve said it very nicely.
If there is a God, and I can comprehend it easily and completely, then I’m going to be very disappointed. I want my God to be capable of creating a universe that is completely beyond my ability to comprehend. This God may be a benevolent entity, or perhaps even benevolence is a ridiculously limited human idea that no God should be restrained by. Perhaps there is a fecund concept of goodness so beyond our fragile, barely evolved ape intelligence that we can’t even conceive of it.
My God is incomprehensible. Even calling it God is pointless. It doesn’t mean I don’t think we shouldn’t believe – belief is one of the most powerful tools in our mental arsenal, but using that ability to abuse our own species is typical of the kind of shortsightedness that cripples us and will probably doom us to a long, slow extinction on a planet that we beat to death with our billions of feet.
Wow, I’ve just read a book that answers Ricky’s exact statement! I’ve just been reading C.S. Lewis’ ‘God in the Dock’ (As in, God on trial.) It’s an incredibly fascinating, enlightening, strengthening book for the Christian with doubts or the seeker with questions.
What I would say to Ricky – and Syh, too – is that God made the very things that science studies. He’s not afraid of us learning or asking questions – because He is the answer to all of our questions. Jesus IS the Truth, and the Way, and the Life.
God made the universe. Lewis says truth is about something, and reality is the something that truth is about. Surprise – God invented reality.
As our knowledge of the universe expands, we aren’t discovering things that God longs to keep hidden in order to keep us from questioning His existence. Instead, we are becoming capable of understanding the complexity and magnificence of His creation.
Science isn’t something to be afraid of. Christians should never feel like they have to be ashamed of what they believe because it seems irrational, because faith seems to be synonymous with ignorance. In fact, the existence of God is the far more rational outcome than things that atheistic scientists propose like the Big Bang Theory.
Science is born upon the study of observable nature and the laws of nature, but as Lewis says, the laws of nature never initiated any event – they are simply the pattern events must follow. In order for events to begin, they must have an Initiator. What caused the Big Bang? What caused the universe to expand from an extremely dense state? How did the matter in that state come into existence? What caused molecules to begin to bump into each other? Where did those molecules come from? Who created them?
You see, it takes more faith to believe in nothing than to believe in Someone.
I have a lot more to say than most people would be interested in, but in summary, read C.S. Lewis’ book ‘God in the Dock,’ or if you’re pressed for time, read his two essays “The Laws of Nature” and “Religion and Science.” Religion and Science is only four very small pages long and is a fantastic dialogue between him and an atheist friend making many of the same arguments Ricky makes.
You see, Ricky isn’t making any new arguments. His ideas aren’t new. Older, smarter Christians have already had, addressed and overcame those same thoughts. We have no need to fear these questions.
On a further note: before entering into such a dialogue with anyone like Ricky I would spend serious time in prayer for him, for softness and receptivity of his heart, for divine wisdom and clarity and discernment in when to speak and when to be silent, and for gentleness in my heart to not be offended and to speak of Christ rightly.
And on a very personal note, in response to ‘Why do I believe in God’? I believe in God because He saved my life. He stopped me from killing myself. When I hated myself, He let me know that He loves me and thinks that I am worth dying for. He has shown Himself to me through miracle after miracle, and has proven Himself to be true through His word and His world.
How can I not believe in God?
Sorry for the comment of epic length.
Summary:
-God made the things that science studies, so science is only learning about things He already did
-the laws of nature did not initiate any events – God is the initiator of everything.
-God has answers for those seeking questions because He is the answer. He IS truth.
-I believe in God because He saved my life.
-Read C.S. Lewis’ ‘God in the Dock.’
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter and the glory of kings to seek it out.
Science and mystery and the Question, the thrill of the hunt and the moment of discovery – these are all God’s good gifts to us.
~Proverbs 25:2
As a scientist I *love* this verse! How boring would life be if all the answers were plain and easy to see.
I absolutely agree. On top of all responses and evidence we can give and prayers we can offer, we have to remember that God is sovereign and it’s only by Him revealing Himself can anyone ever understand and come to know and love Him.
In Job 26:36, after listening to the older guys natter back and forth to each other for twenty some-odd chapters, Elihu Job’s young punk friend, says, “Behold, God is great, and we do not know Him.”
And that’s pretty much all I have to say about that.
What would I say??
What *COULD* I say?? He’s refuting all my first answers…all that is left is for God to prove Himself. Would He do so right then? Would He want to?
Would I have the faith, in that moment of talking to Mr. Gervais, would I have the faith to ask God to prove Himself? The signs and wonders weren’t for believers – they were for the unbelievers.
The plagues of Exodus, each one was a slap in the face of an Egyptian God.
Would God, in that moment, choose to reveal Himself?
I sincerely hope He would…
I have a friend who is blogging about this very same thing. She’s given up on God…considers everything she’s been taught to be nothing but manipulation. and the one thing that stays the same between Mr. Gervais article and my friend’s blog posts — a distinct distaste for religion.
When will people get it?
I don’t have an answer for that either.
and I think my heart is heavy because of it.
So, what would YOU say to him?
What would YOU say to my friend?
… we must live our faith.
– do we genuinely serve others (not just those who will reciprocate our kindness)?
– do we love others (enough to put their welfare above our own)?
– do we have real joy (despite and/or beyond circumstances)?
light cannot be denied – especially in darkness.
wow, I’ve got a lot of work to do. this is a great discussion – praying for great things to come from it in ALL of us.
“So what does the question “Why don’t you believe in God?” really mean. I think when someone asks that they are really questioning their own belief.”
I appreciate this quote and have found it to be true. The reason I usually would feel my heart start to beat fast in a discussion with someone who doesn’t believe in God is because it threatened my own beliefs. I was desperate to prove myself right and them wrong otherwise everything I’ve based my life on would be a lie, and I can’t let that happen.
Right now I’m at a place in my faith where I am trying to be okay with the tons of questions I have. Not deny them. Not freak out about them. Not rush to find pat answers. Just live with them. And I’m also okay right now in my faith with not having answers to prove my faith or my God to peole like Ricky. Why do we Christians think we have to have answers? I know I’m at a very interesting place in my faith, but I say leave the man alone. Stop seeking out people to prove your faith to. I don’t even know as a Christian if I know how to enter into a relationship with someone without having my own agenda. And I’m so tired of my agendas.
What an awesome line….”And Im so tired of my agendas.” wow, that just slapped me in the face and gives an answer to the weariness ive been feeling…my agendas. thanks mandy
Right on Mandy! I mimic your thoughts 100%.
Awesome, thanks for sharing your thoughts. A quote from Rainier Maria Rilke’s Letters to a Young Poet comes to mind:
“…I would like to beg you dear Sir, as well as I can, to have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and to try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or books written in a very foreign language. Don’t search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.”
I would first say that the burden of proof is definitely on him. Christendom was the norm of Europe until the Reformation and the Enlightenment tag-teamed it into submission. However, he’s still going against the historical majority.
Christendom has had its theologians. If he could respond to Thomas Aquinas, Thomas More, C.S. Lewis, or John Henry Newman then he would really have a case.
Where is the atheist philosopher? Nietzsche? Marx? Freud? These folks neither loved wisdom nor man. Their ideas fueled the 20th century genocides, whereas the ideas of St. Benedict, St. Dominic, St. Francis created the modern university and hospital systems.
The burden of proof can never be on the one denying, it is ALWAYS on the one who is trying to prove that something does exist. You can’t prove a negative.
I disagree. In Romans 1:19-23 God says that He’s made it clear to everyone that He exist, but they neither glorified nor gave thanks to Him, and claiming to have become wise, they became fools.
In Isaiah 6:3, the angels are constantly singing, “Holy, Holy, Holy! The whole earth is filled with His glory!”
The existence of God is pretty obvious. People have to work fairly hard to deny Him. In order to do that, you’d have to shut your eyes, close your ears, pretend you aren’t smelling pine needles or tasting crisp winter air. You’d have to ignore the air flowing into your lungs despite the goodness of the Creator who continues to allow your lungs to function. You’d have to ignore the voice inside your own heart telling you that He’s really, really, true.
Everything in all existence tells us He’s real. The burden of proof most certainly falls upon the unbeliever, because God’s already shown Himself. We have eyes, don’t we?
I think this is a question we all need to be ready to answer…”Why do YOU believe in God?” Hopefully people around us see Him in our lives, and see someone that is different from the World. Our job isnt to beat atheists into submission (in fact, maybe we need to be beating Christians into submitting to Christ). We need to love them as they are and point the way to Christ through our lives.
Two more thoughts that come to mind:
I think there are versions of Christians that are operating as if they aren’t in need of a God, just as much as atheists aren’t in need of a God.
I’ve spent this year trying to unlearn parts of being an adult and relearn what it means to be childlike. It is much easier for children to believe in things unseen. Imaginative worlds and the supernatural and such, and no one is put off by it. It’s cute.
In this article he mentions imagination is a good reason for living. So he isn’t anti-imagination. And I think if we can let ourselves imagine, we can start asking questions bigger than ourselves. I think this is a great way to land on truth that might be bigger than our answers.
Honestly, I get confused with how Science and Faith are so contradicting, because scientists are great at asking big questions and exploring for answers, much like artists. Maybe the biggest problem is when we want to define answers so everything feels safe and secure and under control. I’m just not sure anymore if the point of life is safety.
And he’s right on about this comment too: “the truth, however shocking or uncomfortable, in the end leads to liberation and dignity.” This could easily be a quote from a Christian book. So maybe we are more alike then we realize. We are equally searching for answers and wishing there were easy, non-messy ones.
I cannot find the words i want to say, my head is a jumbled mess lately but I agree with you Mandy 100%
I Love These
Ricky- if you erased all the preconceived notions/rules we Christ followers have given (yikes we’re SO human).. could be quiet- alone- still… dare to think about the WHAT IF. What if there was someone who lavished love on you as you are? Extravagant love that won’t run out for you no matter what you have done or will do. What if you just considered the WHAT IF? Everything changes with that question. WHAT IF there was a reason FOR all these gifts you have- who you are? Hmmmmmm.
This is very saddening. One thing in his article struck me, where he was talking about needing truth to be honest, and how truth is liberating and freeing. Jesus is TRUTH. He is the way, the truth, and the life. I cannot wrap my mind around the denying of God’s existence, because all of creation points to HIM. I do believe we are called to love all people, even those with whom we disagree. Jesus wasn’t about hatred, but He was all about love. The Jesus I know and serve, is full of mercy, grace, and love. It breaks my heart when people cannot see that.
All we can do for Him and others with his same beliefs, is pray that God will interven. Arguing is futile. Offending means nothing. For me the only way to prove God, other than faith, is the Bible and they’re not open to that so they need revelation from God. I know it may be wrong to say but I can’t waste my time trying to convince 1 person when many others may be waiting for me to speak to them.
This isn’t a theoretical thing for me, this is what I live with every day. My husband deconverted from the Christian faith a little over a year ago to become an atheist and these are the questions that we ask one another. And trust me, trite, pat answers simply don’t work. If you genuinely believe that people who wear the moniker atheist (not simply don’t believe, but choose to identify as atheists) don’t have a thorough understanding of most religious theology, you are sadly mistaken. Most atheists are far more well-versed in what we believe than we are about their non-belief. We seriously need to change that.
Why DO we believe in God? In my very personal opinion, I don’t think half (most) of Christians even know. I’ve spent my life in church, I’m married to a former pastor/church planter of 13 years, led YL for years before that. I am currently asking myself this question. It’s scary, humbling, and incredibly enlightening. And as I search for God all over, I find the last place I want to be is in a church. What do I say to Ricky? Let’s go get lost under an open starry sky for a few nights, or decades.
If I’m to be completely honest, two things are in my head right now.
1. I loved Ricky’s post. I thought it was well thought out, intelligent, and honest.
2. I believe in God because someone told me about Him. I heard the Word and I believed. That’s all there is to it. There is no man behind the curtain for me to show you, turning wheels and knobs and putting on a fabulous light show. No formula, no 12-step program. I heard and I believed. And I believe still.
Ditto
As someone who works in biology research and ‘believes in God’ (it’s more than just ‘believing’ though isn’t it?) …I always find it interesting when people talk about ‘science’ not showing God. And Ricky talks about ‘science’ as if it is it’s own entity – beyond reproach or flaw – when really it is a man-made system to observe, discover, and manipulate that which we see in nature. We are designing the experiences and we are publishing the conclusions. We are the error-filled, lost-perspective factor.
I once heard of a study done on brain imaging done comparing experiencing sex and people who are in a ‘worship experience’ with God. The same part of the brain lit up for both experiences. My professor said this study showed that worship experiences are something physical, lowly and self-created by the person – and concluded that God was something man made up. It hit me later that it is so awesome that the same part of our brains is involved in worship with God and sex – because they are both intensely intimate situations.
My point is – it all depends on your perspective when interpreting data. Hence, science isn’t a flawless entity incapable of error because it is framed in man’s flaw-filled perspective.
I was thinking about this as I read these comments. If someone is as determined not to believe as I am to believe in my Savior, is there really anything I can say to change their mind? Wouldn’t that require a miraculous intervention from God? I guess my point is that those who really are seeking answers and have an open mind (there is a student at my church that is in this place) then I can, with God’s divine direction, listen and say something that may lead them to the truth…Jesus Christ. But if they are dead set determined not to believe…that’s gonna a take a sun stand still, God sized miracle to change their hearts. And here’s the good news…God’s in the business of doing those kinds of things. Look at Paul in the Bible. That guy was as anti-Christian as you can get and look what God did in His life. Kind of gives you hope, doesn’t it?
I have a sense of conviction for my own lack of response to why I believe. Reading other post I find where I agree or feel the same as some or different from others. But I desire to be authentic need prayer on this.
Also I keep thinking of all the people that bought into Mr. Gore and Global Warming. Man will ultimately fail you. Sadly just as some twist scripture to fit their need, some have done the same in the name of science. As always great topic Los
I read Ricky’s article and I don’t think his argument is very well thought out. I understand his point, for sure. I think it’s well written and everything. But to become an atheist in an hour is like trying to become an olympic level gymnast in an hour. He doesn’t mention researching his stance on science (which is more political than most people readily admit) or searching out proof for the existence of God. I hope he has done some study on his beliefs and continues. If not, then he’s just like a lot of us who won’t ask hard questions and believe based solely on emotion or our own sense of logic.
A lot of these posts mention God being bigger than our questions and this is absolutely true. Unfortunately, many people who profess a belief system of any kind, be it atheism or Christianity, do so without asking tough questions critiquing their own beliefs. This only leads to weak faith and relative truth. There has to be a standard somewhere.
Of course I write all this in theory. Ashamedly, I can’t argue for the existence of God with any real weight besides personal experience and the notion of a “Prime Mover”. So…never mind.
My response does not have years of studying and research behind it. But, it does have common sense.
First, I think “Christians” like God to fit in their idealistic boxes. Its easy right? Its an easy role playing Tony Danza, while we tell God ‘who’s the boss’.
Second, being a skeptic of your faith is healthy for a believer and nonbeliever. Extinguish your religious doubts, fears and explore them. Study the text, speak with experts and give it time (use good judgment on your sources).
As for the philosophical types, you can look at faith as a choice of odds. Join Blaise Pascal in the hopes that a fear of hell will motivate you to believe. But is hell necessary for us as humans to finally choose to follow God? What is hell?
We have free will on this earth to make our own decision on faith. But how can God be just if an individual chooses life without him and he receives no punishment. Hell is simply seperation from God(forget flames, demons and gnashing of teeth). There is no greater punishment from being apart from your creator. Should this be used to persuade others out of fear? No. If one were to submit to God and believe in his word, then you believe hell exists.
So how is a pastor wrong for answering the question: what if I choose not to believe?
“Skepticism is the beginning of Faith”
-Oscar Wilde
I read and was troubled by Gervais’ article yesterday. Then I stumbled upon this Andrew LePeau blog today…
http://andyunedited.ivpress.com/2010/12/when_smart_people_say_stupid_t.php
Couldn’t help but see how it responds to Ricky’s view of science.
There’s another quote I’d like to paraphrase, from the writings of a man named Mel Tari. He basically says, “With science, you have to see it to believe it. With faith, you have to believe it to see it.”
In his church in Indonesia, they experienced all sorts of supernatural happenings that caused pagan witch doctors to convert to Christianity on the spot. But they only were able to see God’s glory when they asked Mel and others to prove it. And God delivered.
Seems we of Western cultures have a lot to learn from the simple faith of our distant neighbors…
I agree that Christians would benefit from reading it. I myself have been listening to and reading the opinions of prominent atheists and agnostics in contemporary society right now (e.g. Richard Dawkins). It does seem that the world – or at least western culture – is growing more skeptical and antagonistic towards Christianity.
However, I’m wondering, Los, how do you see us “responding” to Ricky?
“And when the accusers stood up, they began bringing charges against him not of such crimes as I was expecting, but they simply had some disagreements with [Paul] about their own religion and about a certain dead man, Jesus, whom Paul asserted to be alive.
And being at a loss how to investigate such matters…”
Porcius Festus
(Acts 25:19)