Disturb and Disrupt – Your View On Sexual Orientation
Before you think we have never tackled this on the blog…
Please…
Read…
These…
When I talk to my gay friends, and I only have 3 so I’m not getting all Barna up on you, I can’t imagine telling them that they are broken any more than I am broken.
All 3 of them have amazing families.
Amazing fathers.
Never been abused.
So all my horrible theories go out the window on them anyways…
They all say that they have always felt this way.
ALWAYS.
From like toddler land.
I believe them.
Then when I sit alone, and wonder the greatness and perfection of God…
I wonder if He would say the same thing…
“Yes Carlos. I did make them with that orientation”
Or would he say…
“No Carlos. I screwed up. Left them in the orientation cooker a bit too long”
I don’t know.
But I don’t think He would say He made a mistake in creating this in them.
I would say we, humans, might not understand the vastness of who God is and what He knows and plans.
I am NOT saying acting on homosexual tendencies is not a sin.
But I am saying we as the church MUST discuss this.
I’m going to be doing a series of videos in the coming months focusing on some disturbing and disrupting topics that we like to talk about on here.
This being one of them.
I’m not looking for cookie cutter here.
I want wrestlers.
What conversations should we be having on our little web show that the church isn’t having right now?
Los
Oh. And try to answer the question I’m looking for if you feel the itch to go all fundamental on us…
RAIN IT DOWN
I love that you’re willing to get into this topic.
Me too. Except all the gay friends I have are pretty dysfunctional. hahaha. I love them, but all of the gay people I know would say that they’re “really f’d-up” in one way or another. And I’ve had a LOT of gay friends. So “gayness” scares me a little in that sense. Which pisses a lot of people off, I know.
I’m gay and pretty darn f’d up…..and am going to suggest, in hopes of not pissing You off, that most of you straight folk are too.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Perfect, Daren. As a straight man, I’d have to say that there isn’t a one of us that isn’t hosed up in one way or another…
Straight guy here. F’ed up as they come.
Okay, I should clarify; I mean “in-need-of-intervention status” “f’d up.” Like, partying, alcoholism, wild promiscuity, narcissism, sex-obsessed, anger-management issues, etc. I’m pretty messed up, and most of my friends are pretty messed up (human, duh), but for some reason it seems most of my gay friends are experiencing an entirely different level of “messed up” than the rest of us. Think less Miley Cyrus and more Charlie Sheen.
And I’m really not trying to “make a point” or anything; all of my friends, gay or otherwise, know I adore them all. But even my gay friends have commented that I “just need to meet stable gay people.” They swear such people exist but I’m starting to think they’re lying to me… hahaha.
Apparently this is just me, though.
Should we as Christians not be using words like f’d up. Should we not clean up our language to reflect that we are set apart from the world. I do not believe that people are born with the desire to be gay just as I do not believe people are born with the desire to murder. But sin creeps in and we give into it. God is not the author of sin.
I completely agree with you abriggs…well said.
Yes, you can love God and be a Christian and be gay, but homosexuality is a sin, and like any sin it will distance you from God.God loves you, regardless, but he hates your sin…our sin.We all struggle with some kind of sin, but as Christians, we don’t intentionally live that sin, we try to resist it and fight daily. What kind of testimony am I giving if I call myself a Christian and I’m walking around with a beer in my hand and claiming that I am alcoholic and that, that is who I am?
and sin doesn’t just pick people with dysfunctional backgrounds, sin doesn’t discriminate…it picks people who come from good families and that have good lives.
Tolerating Vs. Embracing the Cultural Clash of the Church. Sunday is the most segregated day of the week and our leadership teams reflect it. You can have a Black or Hispanic follow a White leader, but very rare will you find a White to follow them as there Senior Pastor. Crazy but very true
My pastor is black. This white girls loves him….along with the rest of our 90% white congregation. =)
An boom goes the dynamite. I wonder the same things myself sometimes.
It’s not so cut-and-dry as we’ve been led to believe.
Biblically, it’s very cut and dry. =/
Agreed with Andrea.
Not sure why people still entertain the thought that it might be okay after all to be gay, and a Christian. The Bible, which is not consulted very much in our current Christian culture, makes it very plain. Instead of wondering and speculating what God might be up in heaven saying about their orientation, the Bible is painfully and uncomfortably clear. There is not much left to speculation or theory.
Kingdom Man … Do you personally know a gay/lesbian person?
Yes. Many. Several of which are in ministry. I do not equate homosexuality with absolute degenerate unbelievers who are going to go to hell regardless. I do however believe it is not the plan nor the will of God, and His ultimate intention is deliverance and freedom. I further think it is atrocious to ever allude to the idea that God created them this way. Absurd!
Boy, there is not much room on here for disagreement, since this conversation was invited. I thought we were all going to be objective on here. Wow.
@Kingdom Man I would be interested to know if you think it’s possible to be fat and a Christian? The Bible is also very clear about that, even listing gluttony as one of the seven deadly sins.
It’s time we as Christians stop culturally ranking sins which simply distracts us from the mission Christ has set before us.
Agreed. Both are sin. Neither one is the plan of God, and His desire is freedom and deliverance. Those who are offended at my comments have yet to provide Scriptural support for their positions. And don’t give me the “love” verses, which is the ultimate and obvious dodging of the question. What did Paul mean?!? Let’s not pat ourselves on the back for being such “authentic” seekers of truth when we refuse to wrestle with the Scriptures that make us the most uncomfortable.
KM, I’ll be honest. Even as a gay man who loves God (in all 3 of God’s Persons) and who loves his partner, I cannot say with certainty that Paul wasn’t talking about all forms of homosexuality when he wrote Romans, 1 Corinthians, or 1 Timothy. For Paul, there was a natural order to things, and that order was heterosexually organized. Being raised in a Jewish culture where life spans maybe reached 40-50 and where procreation was highly emphasized, sex existed for the purpose of life. One must also understand that historically, there was very little evidence for a “homosexual orientation” during Paul’s life. I don’t know whether to refer to actual scholarship here or if you simply want to use Scripture to explain Scripture. I’ve learned to just let bygones be bygones when it comes to this topic. I will say this. A South African theologian, Andre du Toit and an Australian scholar, William Loader say this:
There will also be those who, experiencing the longing to love and be loved, and realising their own mortal frailty, may decide on a one-to-one committed and permanent relationship. They should also be supported in every possible way.
Basically we should accept that, while upholding this dialectical tension, if a choice must be made between the biblical position on homosexuality and the love commandment – and such a choice is often inevitable – the latter must receive precedence.
I know this only touches the tip of the iceberg. I also know that we are all coming into this conversation with a certain amount of bias and agenda, with possible hopes of changing one another’s minds. Let me just say I respect what fervor you’ve shown thus far and let’s hope we can keep some semblance of peace and unity while tackling this all too personal subject.
Peace,
Michael
Kingdom Man is the reason I am going to start doing these shows.
Dear Lord. Come Quickly
Wish you wouldn’t call it a “show”, Carlos. These are serious conversation not for the sake of sensationalism…
My sister was gay. I say “was” because she is dead. Cancer, age 47. We were just 13 months apart and connected throughout some very turbulent family years. I watched her come to the Lord and follow after Him until… Until she was told she was going to hell because she was gay.
I have no answers. But what I do know is that only God knows the heart of a man or woman and only He knows what transpires between them, on the journey or in those last moments. I do know that I am called to love, the kind of love that is in 1 Cor. 13. Sadly, as the “Body of Christ” we don’t seem to emulate Him very well…
Wait. What did Kingdom Man say that isn’t true? And why do you find it necessary to insult him Los? Can we not disagree respectfully?
Living a homosexual lifestyle is sinful. Murder is sinful. Gluttony is sinful. The list goes on and on. No one is ranked higher than another, and none of us are in any position to judge another.
I cannot support gay marriage or a homosexual lifestyle and do not choose it for myself, but i will NOT judge another for his/her choices. I WILL however love him/her the best way i can like Jesus does. That’s my only job as a Christ follower. Love EVERYONE and do the best i can to lead a life that is pleasing to God.
Ace,
you expressed exactly how I feel.
I have a few “gay” friends. One of them being a long family friend, One being my old Youth Pastor as a young teen(Pentecostal Church too) who told people he was gay about 10 years go. I cannot support gay marriage or the lifestyle either. I choose to LOVE my friends in the hopes they they will see Jesus through me. I will not judge them and I love them all deeply. They all know it too.
Loswhit-
I respect your blog and your opinion, so please give me your Biblical understanding that supports your positions. Please dissect and dismantle the Scriptures that deal with homosexuality. The Bible is still our standard correct?
Looking forward to the dialogue
As has been alluded to by others, even if we concede that homosexuality is a sin where in the Bible does it say that it isn’t possible to be a sinner and be a Christian? Isn’t the message sort of the opposite, that we’re all sinners?
I would suggest that when we see a gay person who doesn’t now Christ what we ought to be worried about is not their sexuality but rather, hello, the fact that they don’t know Christ!
AMEN!!!!!
Pornography. My man wrote a blog about it last month. Check it out. It gets at the issue and provides hope for men who struggle with this. And it made me fee loved & cherished. Its a hard issue…but bringing it to the light is key to saving our marriages.
http://www.mattrcoulter.com/2011/02/honest-conversation-about-porn.html
Ok…i just looked at it and it was written in Feb…not last month. Sheesh, time is flying by!
I just wonder why God would be so specific about this in the bible, if he doesn’t really mean what He said…
Now, don’t get me wrong. I struggle with this topic. I have gay friends…and relatives. I only have love for them.
Do I think God messed up? Nope. Do I think we want what we want? yep. Do I think we can be confused? yep.
Andrea. I’m going to dive into the specificity of what is in the Bible and the truth of the feeling that my friends feel.
I love your point
I had to stop here to add that not everything you “feel” is “truth,” no matter how strong you feel it or for how long you’ve felt it. That said, I think homosexuality is an excellent topic for discussion in the church and Christians could use a strong dose of diversity training, as it were. Other topics: prescription drug abuse, divorce in the case of physical/sexual/verbal abuse, pornography.
Here, here.
It’s definitely not simple. I have friends who are attracted to the same sex and it’s the same story as loswhit’s – they have felt this way forever, they come from stable and loving homes with a mom and a dad, and have spent their whole lives wrestling with the confusion and guilt of the way they feel.
But I’m agreeing with Andrea here on these points: do I want what I want to be okay? Yes I do and I’ll read the Bible the way I want, to make it say what I want. This is a dangerous way to read the Bible.
We can’t cringe at something in the Bible and say, “That musn’t be true because I don’t understand it.”
God didn’t mess up when he made people we know who are attracted to the same sex. But he also didn’t screw up when he said that following through on same-sex feelings is sin.
I don’t get it. But it seems in scripture very evident that same-gender romantic relationships are never commended and many instances they are condemned. Hard to ignore that.
Even harder to walk through that truth with gay friends.
But walk we must ….
Keep this topic going – we need to wrestle with it.
Andrea,
You’ve got a good point. Unfortunately this point brings up more questions than answers. Questions like what does it mean for the Bible to be divinely inspired? Did God give the writers the exact words or were they given the general message with some freedom to add their own spin on it? Is all of Scripture equally applicable in every context across the whole of time to every single person? Does God change God’s mind? What do we do when we don’t fully know the author’s intent or the context to which and in which they were writing? How do we deal with the fact that Scripture doesn’t address every single possible topic that we as humanity will face in the course of human history? Lord knows these are confusing points for me, and I’m as gay as they come. Doesn’t change the fact that I love Jesus and I love my partner. Doesn’t change that I feel called into ministry and I feel called into relationship. Just some things to think about.
i can’t read the Bible in its original languages but I have friends who do who say it’s not specific and could very well be talking about homosexual rape… I think nothing is as easy as it seeems.
Why is mental illness so taboo in the church, yet people are comfortable discussing problems like lust, anger/rage, worry (fill in the blank).
Mental illness was my suggestion too, I just haven’t figured out how to word what I want to say…
Well, I’ve been pretty open about it on here in the past – I lost my younger brother to suicide just over 1 1/2 yrs ago. I’ve seen and learned a ton since then about how suicide/mental illness is viewed in the church and it’s both heartbreaking and frustrating.
Loswhit:
Do you think homosexuality is a sin or not? Just curious. I enjoy it when you come and lead the worship at my church but I am going to be disappointed if you view of homosexuality is that it i anything other than sin. The Bible does set sexual sins apart from other sins. All sin of course is bad, but sexual sin is a sin against your own body. Get it?
Tickling the dragon, I see. “We’re all broken” is right. I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit, and so I believe that God will orchestrate change that he sees fit. There’s no point in trying to do his deciding for him.
We need to talk about people being desperate to marry, as opposed to using singleness as an opportunity for healing and preparation.
Oh. I like this one.
Yes, this is a good one.
ohh me too!!
On the singleness boat, being never-married and past your mid-twenties in the church has a stigma, especially in “family churches.”
sure does.
I’d love to see a debate about this topic done in a calm, intelligent way. Also include ways to reach out to the gay community in ways that honor God without condoning sin. That’d be nice.
It seems that there’s not much out there that some part of the church isn’t willing to discuss these days. Which is good. God’s always big enough to handle our questions. But what about elves? Why can’t the church give me a straight answer on elves? And like…north pole elves. Not those lord of the rings quackers.
Hey Jon, can I respectfully suggest that we not reach out to the ‘gay’ community, and just reach out to the community in general. If we reach out to everyone, then no one gets singled out, and we can love everyone.
I’m a glutton, very selfish, probably look a bit too long at women other than my wife, and could really be a better father. I’d hate to be left out because I’m not gay. (I hope you see my point)
I think it would be fair to say that The Church has demonized this sin, attacking it in an ad hominem sort of way while failing to treat it consistently as other sexual sins (e.g. adultery, fornication, etc.) That being said, it would probably be best to have Scripture be our starting point instead of our or our friends’ experiences.
The Scripture lay out a sexual ethic by explaining the created order, that is one man & one woman in a monogamous marital relationship, & by prohibiting other sexual activities that are not in line w/ either Scripture or the created order (i.e., any activity outside the marital bonds b/w 1 man & 1 woman).
While it’s difficult to pin down when certain unbiblical sexual urges began, the Scriptures do explain what is acceptable & what is not. I think framing the discussion as God creating them this way is probably incorrect & it would be better if we say that this is a particular way that original sin is expressing itself in a particular person.
That being said, it would be refreshing if the Church embraces folks engaged in this behavior & walked the repentance road w/ them, just as they would deal w/ someone who was engaged in an extra-marital affair.
well said!
Demonetization of sins…
Hmmmmm.
Interesting.
Couldn’t have said it better! There is a huge difference between loving a sinner, and embracing their sin as being acceptable behavior.
I completely agree with you.
Thanks for this. I trust that you will handle this topic with grace and true humility. I can’t wait to see where the conversation goes.
I only have one “ex-gay” friend and a gay cousin. Both had lousy or absent fathers. So the theory holds in my experience.
But I so want to know God’s heart on this so I can authentically love and not just try to bring them a behavior modification program.
money + ministries/christian businesses: why is it always tricky, sticky, and a mess? it is possible to love God and manage money/people properly in a christian business or ministry?
i’ve been working in this world on and off for almost a decade and i’ve seen it get ugly. people are overworked and under compensated. bad decisions are made. then there’s huge campaigns to raise massive amounts of funds. it frustrates me. then people get bitter and/or jaded. i mean, where’s God in that?
Anonymous. I love this topic…
I love this topic too!
I’ve been in the process of getting qualified for a Riverside County adoption, and 75% of the people I’m going through this with are homosexual couples. It’s been amazing sharing this time with them. I don’t have any answers, more questions.
Introducing myself as a local pastor was hard. I wanted to lie. I said it feeling certain they would hate me from the beginning. Surprise! Other people seem to have way more tolerance than most Christian circles.
That reminds me… I learned something the other day- they’re not looking for tolerance. Tolerance is the wrong word. That’s what you do w/ a headache. A better word would be acceptance.
Good word…
Your explaination of Tolerance vs acceptance is wonderful. I also love your general insight.
I have many gay friends. They are strong, powerful people whom I love. I do not believe they are living in sin based on whom they love. I know this will frustrate many, however I cannot bring myself to believe God would make this kind of ooops. Everything is purposeful. When people tell me that it is very straightforward in the Bible, my reply is that staticians can make any number look good.
perfectly said
Have you ever discussed the topic of the all to prevalent theory within the church of an “age of accountability”? this is coming from struggling with this myself. I know in our American view of Christianity we want to believe that all little kids who die before the “age of accountability” go to heaven but if we are born with a sin nature and Jesus is the only way to heaven where does that leave us??
Chris.
Boomsauce.
Should I be stressed Losiah isn’t going to heaven if he died tomorrow?
Good thoughts…
Last week Sy Rogers spoke at my church. I love that my church is willing to bring in a speaker who talks about tough sexual questions. The sermon he preached was about the things his church did right when he first started going to church as a man who had been embracing the gay lifestyle and living as a women in prep for a sex change. His story gives me hope that we can learn to deal with this issue in a more Christ-like manner. If anyone wants more info on Sy, his website is http://www.syrogers.com.
Thanks for that info!
I think one of the biggest questions that the Church almost seems hypocritical about is the idea of living a comfortable life. I hear so many Christian leaders talk about living a radical Christian life, then they go back to their nice comfortable homes and I even hear them sometimes complain about the lack of pay they get. What does it mean to be radical and sacrificial? Should we be giving all our stuff away? Is it wrong to live in comfort? What sort of life does God call us to live, and why does what many people say about it look so different from how we live it?
I don’t have answers here. For a while I have been hearing we should live radical lives of complete surrender to God. What does that really look like? Is that really happening in our Christian circles? I know I would like to here people talk about this in a real and honest way.
I love this…
Should we live more comfortable lives that Jesus lived?
Ooooh, great question. Should we live more comfortable financial lives than Jesus did?
This is something I struggle with too and would love to talk about. I’m not sure there are good answers, but I’d still like to discuss it and explore it more.
Yeah, on one end you’ve got the prosperity gospel folks and on the other you have the sell it all and live in solidarity with the homeless folks? Is there a balance? Should there be?
Why so many within the church do not care for the environment? Seriously. I need to know. We are meant to care for creation, from what I am reading . . .
It is so awesome you are doing this & kicking it off with this question today. My sister-in-law is gay and she says she has always felt this way. I believe her too. Something I really struggle and wrestle with before God.
Kristen. Thanks. This will be a good topic…
Kristen, I’m also interested in the environmental topic…should be good!
We’re all born with a sin nature. I’ve struggled with a few things of my own, my WHOLE LIFE. Mentally, I still battle with some of the things I physically battled with before I was saved. The church often sucks at this stuff, cuz people hear, “Your sin is <>.”
The church is policing sins of people that don’t know Christ…or don’t know better (ehh, may be harsh). For us to be told to love umpteen times…we can point out all the screw ups of everybody else.
……and I am a part of it.
Good word.
I’m struggling right now as a straight woman who has a gay best friend. We were both immediately drawn to one another, from the moment we met. He doesn’t feel that a gay lifestyle is the right choice for him, even though he has always been attracted to the same sex. He has been married to two different women (three kids, now grown) and one long term relationship with a man. I’ve been married three times, all to men who (in hindsight) were clearly wrong choices for me for a variety of reasons. If you look up “broken child of God”, our pictures should come up. It is beyond hard to make sense of our relationship. We love each other and we do life together (including serving at our church) but it is a sexless relationship. We both believe that God has a reason for bringing us together. We struggle with what that means and how it should work, according to God. It is frustrating and difficult and somewhat confusing. He is intensely attracted to me but I am not sure if it is in a sexual way, exactly. I don’t know if that makes him bisexual and figuring that out is hampered by our individual commitments to God and the fact that he spent many years in the gay community, which does not accept the notion of bisexual-ism well. If sexuality is innate, then the only choice you have is whether or not you have gay sex. So how do you force yourself to live “straight”? Not to just have occasional hetero sex but to find a reasonable level contentment with a choice that is directly against your nature?
Wow.
Simply profound.
agreed Los.. Gives me some more to chew on…
BGTD!
“But I don’t think He would say He made a mistake in creating this in them.”
Did God make a mistake in making a baby with cerebral palsy or Downs Syndrome? I’m sure we’d agree with an emphatic “no”.
Did God create cerebral palsy or Downs Syndrome? And therein lies the answer.
I believe humans create orientations, not God. I also believe we create hungers inside of ourselves that we nurture and foster both mentally and physically.
What about the pedophiliac? The most recent studies are showing that pedophilia is an orientation: that these people are strictly attracted to children sexually, and as long as they can remember, that’s the way it’s been.
Where do we go from here?
Did God put those desires in the pedophiliac? Did God make a mistake in making him/her that way?
To compare to a pedophile I think is ridiculous.
Sexually preying on those who cannot defend themselves is a gross comparison.
But who makes those judgments loswhit?
We’re all biased some way. The pedophile feels something. The heterosexual with porn struggles feels something. The homosexual feels something.
In the end I guess we should read the Bible.
Sorry for my last line there – it came out with sarcasm … apologies.
I’m not really sure what to make of that reaction, loswhit.
I know it’s even more uncomfortable because you have two kids (I’m childless). But, it sounds like you didn’t even *consider* the possibility that pedophilia (liking children) could be an orientation. On that topic, even if they don’t act on it, but feel the attraction, how does that add to the conversation of orientation?
I hope you’ll do the same with difficult questions what you’re asking others to do. We also want wrestlers.
I think the posture from which loswhit started this dialog might be wrong. And the pedophile question above really brings it to the surface. Because the pedophile question is a fair one if our “feelings” (no matter how strong they are or how early in life we experience them) are the standard for what is or is not sin. I’m just not clear (and help me if I missed something) why we think that God asks us to use our feelings as the launching point for understanding his Word. That’s a slippery slope, because I have some jacked up but very strong feelings. Some I’m aware are jacked up and some I’m sure that I’m totally blind to. And if I approach God’s Word with the baseline of my feelings and then look for light to expose His truths, I can convince myself that everything that I do is right. The baseline for all of us in approaching God and his word should be an understanding of total depravity (you can wikipedia it or download any podcast from your local neighborhood Calvinist).
There are a lot of good questions to ask on this subject that can create healthy and helpful conversation. And there are a lot of bad questions too on this subject. And for me the subject isn’t homosexuality, it’s sin. It’s my lying, my pride, my attitude, my hetero orientation that makes me lust after anyone other than my wife.
The good questions to ask sound like “how should we respond, how did Jesus respond, what does God say” etc. The answers to those questions are broadly handled in the entire story that is the Gospel, which is about grace. Jesus loved being around the people that were least like them (thanks Andy!) and he always focused on belief system modification not behavioral legislation. Jesus was a pro at loving unconditionally. He just wanted to convince people that God loved them and that he was there to restore the broken relationship between God and man. He just wanted them to believe that. And he never used the Gospel as a crowbar to get people to change their actions. He just loved. And he still loves. And the belief in that love (the Gospel) leads to changed lives (see Colossians). But the life-changing has nothing to do with us, it’s the fruit of the Gospel. You can’t force it, you can’t put it on your timetable. It’s sanctification and it’s part of the Holy Spirit’s job description. And the more I believe about the Gospel and God’s love for me, the more I see my sin problems slowly changing. My desires change. But I might be dealing with my pride and anger sin issues until I die. Just like someone else might be dealing with their [fill in the blank] sin until they die. If we have to fix our sin to go to Heaven, then it’s game over for all of us. The church’s job (my opinion) is to create an environment where people with all sorts of sin problems can feel like they get time and space to work it out with God through the Holy Spirit without us sticking our head in the middle of it or putting them on our timeline.
The bad questions to ask are the ones that start with a premise that assumes God was incomplete or that there is hidden meaning when He said something. They sound like “Does God really say?”, “Did God really mean?” That’s precisely the type of questioning that the devil got Eve with (see Gen 3). Those questions can only lead to bad places.
I say all of that hoping that this isn’t really the direction or really even the question loswhit is asking. And I say all of that to ask, loswhit – what is the question?
Amen. Very well said!
“Because the pedophile question is a fair one if our “feelings” (no matter how strong they are or how early in life we experience them) are the standard for what is or is not sin”
WOW! I whole heartedly agree with this!
” The bad questions to ask are the ones that start with a premise that assumes God was incomplete!” Well stated Ben
A pedophile is an abuser…plain and simple. A pedophile preys on someone who cannot protect themselves. They take advantage of being children using fear. There are a million miles between someone who struggles with homosexuality and a pedophile.
Ack…That should be “They take advantage of children using fear.”
My thoughts:
1. Guys are hardwired to look, and thus wrestle with lust, in the same way that homosexuals are attracted to the same sex…does that make either of them right? No.
2. Are they more broken than me? Absolutely not. I’m a huge sinner with my own problems to deal with.
3. Is being homosexual a sin? No. Is acting on it? Yes. (I think too many people confuse the two.)
4. The Bible is clear on the fact that it is a sin.
5. The Bible is clear that God does not make mistakes and creates exactly what He intends to.
6. Do points 4 and 5 contradict each other? I think they’re difficult, definitely. But maybe no more difficult than the other issues we wrestle with and accept, like God’s power and the evil in the world, or whether people who have never heard about Jesus will go to heaven or hell. So very difficult to understand, and something I wonder if we’ll ever have the answer to. Yet both are clearly true.
I agree. Especially #3. We all have desires, it’s whether or not we choose to act on them that is the important thing.
This is the best explanation I have seen here so far. Good points.
Good stuff. Definitely agree with you!
best answer by far!
Well, I don’t need to reply. You did it for me.
Hi Carlos. I’m Daren Painter and Molly’s older brother. Have been a fan for years and read your site long before following you on the Twitter. Thanks for the thoughtful discussion….is why I am still a follower! As an un-churched, both gay & happy participant in the stream of life AND a lover of Jesus who anchors in the fact that He first loved me, I ask ‘What if The Church put down the varied ideas of how NOT to live life….and just did those two things that Jesus did….Love and Uplift the other, their fellow man?’
Would be most honored to be your fourth. In love and light, Daren
Hey Daren. I would LOVE to talk with you. Can you email me at loswhit@gmail.com and we will schedule a time to talk…
Thanks!
Me.
You bring to light the massive fault in my own life, Daren. I’ve gotta get past myself and stop being a part of the “…here’s where you wrong…” way of Christianity. Just ‘loving and uplifting’ is tough(er than it should be) when I’ve been saturated with Sideways-Surprise-Christian-Culture.
…and I always make up excuses.
Awesome topic. I’m not a Biblical expert by any means, but I do know that Jesus talked emphatically about the whole of God’s laws being summed up with “love your neighbor as yourself.” Yet, at the same time, other parts of the Bible talk about lovingly confronting people with their misdeeds.
There is a balance that one has to strike here, I think. The “mission statement” of the church that I go to is “to lead people who are far from God to be followers of Jesus.” You don’t achieve this by alienating the very people who you are trying to reach.
All of the gay people that I know just ** knew ** that they were homosexual from a very early age. I don’t know why God made them that way. But I do know that God has a plan with all of us. I know that each of our lives is a little thread in a huge tapestry of humanity. Each of our little inconsequential threads of our lives interweave with other threads.
I also know that God and the Bible condemns a homosexual lifestyle. However, Jesus also taught that all sin is equal. So my sin of seeing the Green Lantern last weekend and thinking that Ryan Reynolds is a hottie (an adulterous sin according to Jesus’s teachings because looking at another person who isn’t your spouse w/lust in your eyes is the same as committing adultery) is a sin equal to a homosexual having sex with a person of their same gender.
Therefore, I am no better than a gay person. We are equals. We all need Jesus in our lives. We all need His grace.
So what topic should I discuss on the show? I know you have good ones…
Los,
You’re my hero for posting this. When Jesus said “love your neighbor…” I don’t remember Him adding “but not the gay ones.”
Sometimes it feels like God isn’t measuring how often we get it right…but more how often we show compassion and love.
Stay strong.
yep.
Mental illness.
Talk about it, learn about it, meet people with it, love people with it, love people who love people with it, don’t preach down at it.
I struggle with bipolar ii and probably 60-70% of the conversations that happen are 1) people who have been healed “by faith” and 2) people who immediately deny that I could have a diagnosis.
People (who have never dealt with it) don’t seem to know quite what to do or what they think.
Yes. I’m the poster child…
Los, I think this and drinking alcohol are the two topics that are the biggest stumbling blocks to people choosing a relationship w God. And I mean “stumbling blocks” because of the judgmental, unloving, missunderstood scriptually, non-mercy giving, non-willingness-to-listen way The Church makes these two issues its banner to wave on the hill (of these two issues) that they want to die on. It’s not about me, or those like me, wanting to change scripture to say something it doesn’t or to justify some “lack” of something in our lives (as is often posted about such topics). It’s about those who understand scripture innacurately as the sole basis for their opinion on these issues. It’s about a world that reluses to consider a relationship w a God who says that being in a healthy, committed, loving relationship is “wrong” simply because it is homosexual rather than heterosexual. Or that enjoying an occasional fine craft ale, a vintage wine, or a mixed drink w an umbrella in it is “wrong” because it has alcohol in it. These Christian cultural prohibitions continue to be the biggest “stumbling blocks” to a lost, hurting, unbelieving, world. I say preach on brotha….
I heard a quote once, “Lady Gaga said you were “born this way” but Christ said “you must be born again”. I would say, for sure they are born that way. We are all born into sin but Christ says just because you are born that way doesn’t excuse that you need to be born again.
Rick Warren dominated this topic on the News (I know I was surprised too)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2ZwhdgiBgc&feature=related)
Matt Chandler did a whole 2 hour discussion on this: http://vimeo.com/12086824
http://vimeo.com/12088496
http://vimeo.com/12110166
Porn is a good topic.
Sex before marriage? Yes or no? Why?
Great topic! I look at it, I think it from a different angle. I mean, I do believe homosexuality is a sin, just as is lying, cheating, etc. I also believe that God did not create anyone that way. It is only part of our fallen sin nature. God did not create a list of sins and laws for us to follow, rather, God is life, and anything that brings death IS sin.
But the different angle I like to look at it is like this: when God created all things, they were to ‘bring forth fruit’ (which promotes life). From plants, to animals, and man-kind, we are to reproduce ourselves. Not only are we to do this physically, but spiritually as well. I believe that God created opportunities for life and MORE life to create more opportunities for Him to have a relationship. And anything that cuts the relationship off, or goes against the principle of life and reproduction is sin.
let’s ask the gay people – http://vimeo.com/6344577
The common approach of “Love the Sinner but hate the Sin,” is just a game of spiritual semantics. This approach is not really any different than Westboro Baptist Church. In essence we find ourselves saying, “Oh yes, we love you unconditionally,” with open arms before an individual enters a church setting, but afterward we are saying, “No, there is a condition to our love.” We should not create conditions for our love, compassion, grace, etc. Ironically, we may sing a song in church with the line, “Your love has no bounds,” and then we construct snares, traps, and fetters for others. At the present time, a segment of the church is justifying their oppressive attitudes, behavior, and bigotry against those that are LGBTQ’s. It is sad. It is a tragedy. And, it is simply not right.
I do have to agree that scripture is pretty clear. And, I think it’s a slippery slope if we try to apply the “well, it was penned by humans, so there must be some human error in there..” logic. As for me, I have to believe that there’s a reason God had those words in that Book travel thousands of years by word-of-mouth to us, and that He divinely guided His word though His people to us. Otherwise, if we start picking and choosing what scripture we take literally….before you know it, we’ll be saying “that part of the Bible says ‘Do Not Kill’, but…..”
I sometimes wonder if we are tested to “love the sinner but not the sin”. I can’t explain why certain people have different feelings than others; I don’t know if it’s their “choice” (for everyone I know, they didn’t “choose” to be gay).
For me; I try my best to love my neighbor, whether he’s cutting grass in his yard next to mine, or cutting hard time in jail, and leave the judgement up to God.
And ideas on the question posed?
What topics…
Oh. And I agree…
Even as a straight girl, this issue has always bothered me where the “Church” is concerned. It’s one of the reasons I was really put off by Christianity for a while. After all, why were all these “God is Love” people so angry, judgmental and hateful?
Where I’m at with it right now, and I’m not saying I’m right or wrong, it’s just a point in my journey, is this: I believe anything I participate in that draws me away from God or comes between us is a sin. So I don’t necessarily believe the Bible carries with it a list of sins. For example, I don’t believe drinking is a sin, but I think it can be. If I am having a drink to socialize with friends, I don’t see a problem. Now if I am turning to that drink to fill something in me that I should be filling with God, it is a sin. If I eat a cupcake to fill an emotional need instead of turning to God: sin. If I put my heterosexual marriage before my relationship with God: sin.
I’m just at a place where I believe the Bible is a handbook to my relationship with God. I read it to learn more about Him, to get closer to Him. I don’t want to read it as a set of rules and regulations wherein I can now judge everyone else or even make myself feel guilty. There is so much of God that I don’t understand, and I am very wary of saying “This is exactly what God meant when it says _________ in the Bible.”
Even in the 10 Commandments, you have “Do not kill.” Well that seems like an easy, logical one. But do you tell a woman who has repeatedly had the snot beaten out of her and finally strikes back to save her own life that she’s broken one of God’s commandments?
The pharisees were constantly getting hung up on the details of law. “What about _______, Jesus? What then?” His response was “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” [Matt22:37-40]
I think it’s time we do the same. Stop getting so hung up on details. If we’re following what Jesus himself said was the greatest commandment, the rest will fall into place. The only person who that is between is you and God. No one else can tell you where your heart is or whether you’re doing it right.
Completely agree. Very well said.
Beautifully worded. Thanks.
Amen.
I used to be a childrens’ nurse before burning out. We would see little boys there age 3 or 4 and they were showing homosexual characteristics in every day body language so I do believe that some people are born that way. Being born that way isn’t a sin . I feel such compassion for gay/lesbians who are trying not to act on those impulses and we serve a God of compassion. My husband’s cousin is a lesbian living with another lesbian and they have experienced such sadness and rejection from their families. We are one of the few family members who have them over and keep in touch. I feel that their families’ rejection has thrust them towards people who will accept them, mainly other gay and lesbian people. They have been criticized too much and don’t need the church to add to the hurt. What do we all struggle with? Sin . What do we all need? Love and acceptance .
One of my sins is over eating–now that would be a good topic. Who’s brave enough to preach on the sin of gluttony? Have you noticed how many church events involve eating? We have a home church group and only serve drinks, no food, so that the focus is not on eating.
Great post and interesting, thought provoking comments. Keep it up, ragamuffins! Thanks, Carlos.
“What do we all need? Love and acceptance”
I 100% believe that we need to love. But how far do we take acceptance of sin? If I was cheating on my husband and my friends and loved ones just accepted that fact and didn’t try to spur me on toward repentance and redemption that wouldn’t be loving me well.
Jesus is the example of love, and He rebuked us sinners and asked us to turn to Him. Yes, I think I will always struggle with certain sins (like homosexuals with probably always struggle with their desires), but I would never want anyone to just shrug their shoulders and let me continue on that path. Love me well by leading me toward righteousness.
One thing I want to stress is the fact that I think it is completely wrong to condemn/judge gays. It’s hypocritical. We need to first admit our own depravity and need for Jesus. And I also don’t think it’s ever right to exhort someone living in sin if you have not truly loved them first.
I was living in sin before I became a Christian and never responded to those I felt were just trying to lead me to Christ to put another notch in their self-righteous belt.
My salvation came out of love.
Hayley, I was loved into salvation too. No-one criticized me or condemned me, they loved me and I began to see that I wanted what these people had—Jesus. Once I became a Christian , then I understood what sin was and how it hurt God. As a non-Believer I didn’t understand that; so it does no good for me to point it out to other non-Believers.
I have been honest with a friend who was about to commit adultery but we had been in a relationship for years. I have to be in a relationship with someone before they will hear anything that I have to say.
I’m glad your willing to tackle this topic Carlos but like everyone else that I have seen you seem to be missing so meny nuonses of GLBT issues & thelogicly I do beleve engageing in Gay practises is a sin like anyone elses, no better no worse, but eventhough I am starting a ministry to the GLBT in my commuinty I still have many unanswered questions that no one including the bible seem to toch on much if at all, what about bi sexuls are they more or less in sin the the gays? what about transgendered? is being intersexed a sin? it’s genetic but it’s also a choice of what gender will you pick. I was dignosed intersexed about 2yrs ago & I still wrassle inside if I’m some how in sin eventhough everyone in my life have egsepted me as is. & tell me its just part of the fall & the brokenness in this world. but I am still haunted about how do we treat post sergical trazgendered individules if encountered? what about intersexed individules? do we lump then together? are the differnt? can the be leaders in the church? to be truthfull I have a lot of guilt becuse I was thought to be trasgendered from 14 on then all of a sudden I find a genetisest that will study me & do test & bam! i’m ok the church isn’t mad at me anymore, no more being kicked out, I can be a leader in the church, I’m given full rights & privliges. should a genetic test change peoples minds that drasticly? I’m 36 & just found the answers what if someone hasn’t been able to be tested? maby there in the same boat. sorry I rabled on so much but these are questions that eat at my soal on a dayly bases & have no answers that I can see but the church will have to adress them sooner or later.
Check out my post. We had a whole week focusing on this topic last year…
http://www.ragamuffinsoul.com/2010/03/welcome-to-gay-and-lesbian-church-leader-week-at-ragamuffin-soul/
As someone who used to be a full time music minister and was in the closet for many years this is a topic that is very home to me. I have been burned by the church very badly and at one point I had to make the choice: Is what the bible says true or is what I know in the depths of my soul to be the truth (my orientation)? I have always been gay. I’ve been through “ex-gay” therapy and everything, giving it my all, to no avail. I wanted nothing more than a normal, straight life. I gave up my entire life of ministry, my family, my friends, my career, and my career because I couldn’t live with the weight of being in the closet anymore. The church immediately shunned me (suprise) and ironically I am now as against organized religion as I probably can be. I think the biggest problem with christianity in today’s culture is that 95% of people half-ass it (I know there is about 5% that are legit. Carlos being one). It’s a judging party. I really struggle with whether the bible is true based on this 1 piece of information: the bible says homosexuality is wrong but I know for a FACT that I’m gay to the core. The bible is wrong. If that’s the case. what else is it wrong about?
Regardless of my comment about the bible, I think God’s a lot bigger than any of us know. There will be a lot of suprised people in hell. I know this comment is somewhat random and undefined. Just thinking with my fingers.
Can you email me your deets. I would love to talk.
loswhit@gmail.com
I would love to dialogue further with you Matt. I am a Christian who does not think homosexuality is a sin. That sentence comes with a long story. I would love to share with you. Feel free to email me!
I’d love too Luthor. Need your email though. Mine’s bridgethedivide@gmail.com
The irony of all this is that I love what I did in ministry. I fantasize about it often. I still wrestle daily with God’s calling for me in ministry. I have an entire album of christian music and scripts for christian films he has inspired me to write that are sitting there because I just don’t think I can say honestly what I wrote in the songs. I’m trying to find my way at this point. Working a job a hate but at least I’m not hated anymore…
I realize that God is not the people who follow Him. But how does a called worship leader who the church won’t let lead worship fit in?
My email is luthorparks@gmail.com. I wrestle with how does an individual like me who feels called to teach ever be part of a private educational institution again? And, there are some great churches you could be a part of that are different than what you mentioned above. My wife and I are part of a church that is accepting, loving, and non-judgmental. Thankfully, we escaped evangelical fundamentalist.
Glad your tackling this issue. I got into SO MUCH trouble last year for this post on my blog, http://www.carolesmithturner.com/2010/05/gay-adoption-put-up-or-shut-up.html then the other day, this guy sas pretty much the same thing.. http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/16/my-take-on-adoption-christians-should-put-up-or-shut-up/
I think a good hard look at why we American Christian’s continue to build mega churches and campaign against gay adoption instead of spending at least some of that money on adopting the waiting kids in the foster care system, that would be a good topic to tackle… that kinda goes with this topic too.
Gay adoption…
BAM
Los, I love your stones and your willingness to address things that the church has a tendency to run from. I want to start by saying that I am broken and messed up, but I refuse to just accept that according to the gospel that Jesus gives freely to anyone an everyone.
One thing that I have begun to notice is that we as a body of christ is that we are starting to celebrate our brokeness, and wear our dysfunction as a badge of honor and have assumed it as part of our identity rather than embracing what Jesus claimed to be fulfilling from the prophet Isaiah to heal the broken and for a lack of a better term fix those of us who are “effed up.”
I agree that we should not rank sins, And it is eayt to see that we as humans will run to our extremes and charachaturize any opposing viewpoints to our own.
I would encourage all of us to be accepting and loving of all people regardless of our flaws, but let’s embrace the healer not our brokeness.
Oh, and i would love to see ou address “when is it OK to resume public leadership after moral failure.”
Love this…
So many sprint to the pulpit…
How about the domestic partners who live together without being married.
Most domestic partners are domestic partners b/c they can’t get married. It’s called marriage lite.
My department eliminated the option of domestic partnership benefits when gay and lesbian couples gained the ability to legally marry here in my state.
all these subjects are important and yes confusing controversial.Thanks for opening it up Carlos.
I personally struggle with a serious issue aggainst pot users. That is becoming legal in places and That is is a natural plant made by God, the cards (all these lil arguements for the use) confuse the heck out of me. I don’t wanna judge people but I also don’t wanna condone something that is unhealthy. Pot use is crazy everywhere why??
As adoptive parents I do not see any difference between us and two other individuals who want to unconditionally love a child. Once again, why do we create a condition not only for our love but also the ability of someone else to love? It is not right.
If we can come to the conclusions that 1) gay people have felt that way since they were born and 2) having natural homosexual desires is not a sin, but acting on them is, then what are we doing to help the many people in our own church that are struggling to face the truth about themselves without giving in and taking part in homosexual sin?
I think you should talk about sexual sins that aren’t sex or pornography. There are so many other things that happen in relationships today in between the computer screen and the bed, but the church refuses to land on any of these things.
Where does purity start and end?
I’ve experienced a lot of crazy things in life because of this one question. In fact I’ve been kicked out of a bible school and 3 separate churches because of the “impure” decisions I’ve made, yet I’ve never had sex. When I was 14 no one told me that pictures and text messaging was going to send me to hell. But when I tried to talk to people about them no one had anything to say either. Of course when my pastors found out about the things I did it was to late for conversation it was just time to leave.
I would love to hear a conversation about dirty pictures, sexting, foreplay, or whatever else people like to call it.
What is pure and what isn’t? And where are we supposed to draw the lines as Christians?
Kudos to you, los, for broaching a difficult subject. One which the church almost universally fumbles.
I have gay friends. I have had transgendered and bisexual coworkers. I’ve also had a coworker\friend who is a hermaphrodite. I feel their pain and the reality of their struggles.
To your question about what would God say? It seems fairly obvious from scripture two things: God condems homosexuality and it’s fairly irrelevant as one previous poster did to drudge up the issue of the “seven deadly sins”. God condemns sin. God HATES sin. Period. It’s really irrelevant as to whether we as humans think one is worse than the other. They all result in separation from God. Sin is the root cause. Homosexuality is one of the many results of man’s fall. But simply put, according to scripture homosexuality is not in God’s view a valid expression of human sexuality as God intended.
However, my myriad of friends and acquaintances lead me to conclude that homosexuality is both environmental AND genetic. And quite frankly, that is also irrelevant. And this is where the church keeps getting it wrong by insisting that it must be environmental. It’s irrelevant.
Look at it this way from a different perspective. I’m a man. It’s not natural for me to be in a monogamous life-long relationship to one woman. Quite simply, I want to screw almost any half-decent looking person of the opposite sex. Yup. And so does any male with red blood coursing through their veins. You may prefer having a wife being committed to you but you’re lying if you say you don’t want to bang a supermodel on the side. I don’t because 1) my reading of scripture indicates that this is not a valid expression of human sexuality as God intended and 2) a heterosexual, monogomous, life-long committed relationship is the best societal unit for best contributing to the stability of society and for the raising of a family unit which glorifies God. Therefore I don’t screw around even though I want to and daily have the opportunity to do so.
And I would apply the same suggestion to those who have a homosexual orientation. If you cannot live within a heterosexual relationship then remain celibate. Yeah, it sucks. Lots of things in life do. Sounds harsh I know.
Matt Lynn, I feel your pain. I have a friend from college days with the same story. Incredibly painful and the church never should have shunned you. The effects of man’s fall nailed you harder than most. But I would suggest that the bible is true as is your orientation. You likely can’t change your orientation but God’s call is the same. For all of us sinners.
I really agree with this. And if I may add to it, the beautiful side to this is that when we obey and honor God “even though”, we can rely on His favor and grace in our life continually. Scripturally we can hope in that!
We are all born sinners with a sin nature. As Christians we are supposed to follow Christ and His teaching. And the Bible is very clear multiple times about sexual sin. Whether homosexual, premarital, extra marital, self sex, it is ALL a sin and we need to move away from it ourselves and help others to as well.
This is being the hands and feet of Christ.
It seems to me that many Christians love to “hate the sin”. They don’t love to “love the sinner”, however. I am so done with church. I hoped that I would never be like my cynical, jaded Christ loving Dad. I am him. I get it. We are so damn judgmental with 0 true acceptance and forgiveness of even ourselves, and our own sins. How can we forgive others? Always waiting for the hammer to come down…Good luck fixing the Church, Los.
As a church leader, I’m nervous about commenting on this issue. And realising that concerns me, so first I want to suggest that we talk about church leadership and the insane pressure to be perfect.
Second, self harm is a biiiig taboo in churches but so common (church leader who struggles with it here…)
Third, I have no idea about homosexuality. No. Idea. It seems like there’s the voice of all the angry preachers shouting bible references in my head but then my heart knows that without grace we’re all screwed. But you said it, los, God doesn’t make mistakes. It’d be cruel for him to make someone gay and then shout condemnation at them for something he did…
In summary, I look forward to your thoughts!
I’m a rehabed crack addict and drinker. And I’m a Christian. I look at any issue – be it orientation, obesity, addiction etc. through the same lens. The Bible makes it clear that God’s will is for us not to be obese, or addicted, or gay, but the Bible also makes it clear that we don’t have to go through qualifying rounds in order to be Christian. We just have to recognize sin for sin and deal with sin the way the Bible tells us to. It’s not our place to decide the heiarchy of sin or to try and figure out why each of us has different sin issues. It’s also not our place to try and figure out God’s reasoning behind why something is sinful or not.
All we need to do is recognize sin for sin as outlined in the Bible and deal with it.
Let’s stop trying to rationalize God and His will. We don’t have the mental capacity.
One other thought….maybe God gives us issues like addiction or orientation in order for us to overcome those issues though Him?
Dean, both of of your comments most express what I’m ‘feeling’ as I work through Los’ question….. well said, and continued good luck on your journey!
I agree. God can take someone’s pain and turn it into their ministry.
Who better to help than someone who’s been there, done that, no matter what the issue.
I speak from experience .
The only thing I have to add: How in the world do you do it, Los?? People come here & comment. Respectfully. About the tough topics. I have seen this issue raised in other bloggers posts and seen some ugly battles take place in the comment section.
So many people wandering aimlessly because of the stone throwers!! We need to love them all. Whether I like them or not. No. Matter. What.
God does.
Amen!
I always struggle with this topic as well. I have a number of gay friends and relatives that feel the same way. It’s so hard to realize that the way we view other’s sins is simply that, it’s OUR way of viewing other’s sins…we tend to rank them much higher than our own too often, when God sees them all simply as SIN and not one “worse” than another.
I’m looking forward to more of these topics. The topic of sex before marrige is one that seems to pop up in many of my conversations- maybe we could discuss that one and figure out what the bible says about it??
I am looking forward to the discussion. Reading through all this today has me thinking one thing…Grace. I love this place.
How about comparing the sin of gluttony (which so many pastors practice) to the sins that we whisper, like homosexuality or sex outside of marriage, etc.
This is my total pet peeve! They eat and eat at church functions, but if someone else commits a sin at the same function they are ostracized.
I am not talking about people who are obese due to medical conditions, etc.
I can go on and on about this!!
Sort of along the same line.
To all of you who have said the Bible makes the issue of homosexuality very clear… just a few thoughts:
The Bible references divorce & remarriage MANY more times than it does homosexuality. And Jesus himself even discussed divorce. I’m just saying. We (the church) have all sorts of divorced & remarried folks on our staff (and I don’t have a problem with that BTW), but what about a Jesus loving gay guy?? Just saying.
Interesting questions, that definitely need to be addressed…
While I’ll come right out and say it that I come down where I believe the Bible does on this issue, I would like to clarify that I don’t think that a homosexual is in “worse sin” than an unsaved woman living with her boyfriend, or a church leader who is addicted to pornography… and yes, I have gay friends and coworkers…
I definitely don’t like the people who claim it is only a choice though… that doesn’t fly.
In the youth group that I lead, a kid comes in every week and asks “If I do _____, can I still go to heaven?” Each time I tell him the same thing- “If you have to ask this question, its a sin if you do it” and “A sin will NOT pluck you out of your Father’s hand!” I know 100% that Christ lives within me because whenever I sin, I know it! The Holy Spirit convicts me when my eyes watch some pretty girl’s butt, or whenever I let out a swear word and curse at someone. The Holy Spirit is God’s gift to those who believe… and those that don’t know Him, don’t have that conviction from the Holy Spirit.
I don’t view my sin (or anyone else’s- Christian or not) to condemn or as a disadvantage, but as a bragging point for God and His grace. “Should we go on sinning so that grace may abound?” I realize that when I sin, it hurts my God, so I ask Him for help so as to not hurt Him (and in doing so, not hurting those around me either).
As a partnered gay man who is currently in seminary pursuing ordination in a mainline denomination, I’ve spent my life dealing with this question. And while Molly’s statement about Scripture addressing heterosexual relationships, marriage, and divorce significantly more times than it addresses homosexuality, this hasn’t changed the fact that homosexuality is still addressed.
Like Carlos’ friends, I knew about my own orientation as far back as 6 or 7 years old. Being a good Southern Baptist boy, I spent a significant amount of time (from age 9 until age 19) actively fighting my sexuality, taking part in reparative therapy and being involved in the ex-gay movement. Prayer and worship were my life-breath, and it wasn’t until after I was kicked out of the church for my struggle that I had a heart-to-heart with my Creator about his “mistake.”
After being immersed in Psalm 139, I had an interaction with that “still small voice” that so many conservatives like to refer to. Only, in this encounter, God simply reminded me that this passage indeed referred to me as well… to all parts of me, including my sexual orientation.
I strongly believe in the validity and the authority of Scripture, but anyone who claims to give equal credence to all parts of Scripture still probably actively ignores those passages in Leviticus which condemn touching the skin of a dead pig, wearing mixed-fabric clothing, disobedient children, eating shellfish, and many other ritually impure actions.
John Wesley placed a strong emphasis on the importance of revelation through Scripture, but he also indicated a believe that revelation happened through tradition, reason, and experience as well. Additionally, many traditions show how revelation happens in creation also.
This is not an easy topic to tackle, and I can only hope and pray that the dialogue which takes place happens in a context of love, respect, and a sincere search for the truth. This issue continues to bring much discord into the body of Christ, and while I know that there are those who disagree/disapprove of my “lifestyle,” I would hope that the heart of Christ would be unmistakeable in my words and involvement.
Jesus didn’t tolerate. He didn’t even meet people halfway or sit down with them to try and say “Hey – maybe you and I can meet in the middle somewhere.”
He slammed them about the head and shoulders with TRUTH and went on his merry way. Or gay way (another word for merry or happy, right?).
If you think he tolerated false teaching and anything less than the truth than you’ve misread or not read the gospel… you guys should address that one on your web-show.
How the church today and the academic approach to safe and non-confrontational evangelism is in direct contrast to how Jesus spoke (even on the sermon on the mount)… that’d be a hot little web show right there…
I no longer feel being gay is a sin. I came to that conclusion years ago now. The Bible has been interpreted many times over and I believe things have been lost in translation and then translated to fit what the translator deems to be true. I’m no theologian, but I don’t think the evangelical christianity that we practice in the west is the same kind that was practiced with Jesus and the disciples.
I’m so tired of this being one of the dividing lines of the church. Why is this such a big deal? I have many gay friends and a couple of trans friends. Close friends. They are as gay as I am straight. A few of them love God immensely. A few of them also have been so turned off to the church because of the whole “love the sinner, hate the sin”. That isn’t acceptance. It’s a condescending statement. Jesus didn’t just tolerate, he accepted.
By the way, Soulforce.org is a great resource for Christians wanting to know more about this.
Which is harder to believe – God created gay people, or God created most of humanity to burn in the anti-Biblical hell of the traditionalists?
Why single out the gay population to receive absolution while you promote flamers like Fran Chan? That is “flamer” as in a believer in the theory that gays and the vast majority of humanity will suffer horrific torture – in flames – for all eternity.
All of humanity, gay, straight, or any point between, is either alive in Christ or dead in their sins. That is a truth for today and the truth depicting eternity.
Gay people, or even Chan, who have accepted Jesus as their Savior, are alive in Christ. We all embark on the same path of repentance until fully united with Jesus.
It would be great if the church would stop thinking of them as gay people and just think of them as people. There’s so much more to a gay person’s life than his or her orientation as there is so much more to me than my heterosexuality.
Thanks for tackling this topic, Los. I hope you can include the genetic components of homosexuality, because I do believe that for many, maybe men in particular, there is a genetic component. Now, how that squares with the Bible, I have no clue.
As for topics, my suggestions might be a bit dull, but I hear that the church needs to be better at being authentic, needs to do better at building relationships, etc. So, how do we do this? We need specifics. Oh, I know: how about how the religious right in its heyday actually hurt the credibilty of the church. Of course, there’s also the topic on how many, many churches are so disrespectful of women.
LosWhit… I think a good place to start is to str8 look at what the word says. What verses speak specifically about this topic? List them,discuss them.
I know you lived in So Cal for some time and so you probably know who Miles McPherson is. A lot of people post “check out this site” or that but I really think if you have a few minutes you should listen to this message! The most excellent one I’ve heard [about this subject]
http://www.therocksandiego.org/messages/2008-09-14/
And for those struggling:
http://www.therocksandiego.org/ministries/samesex/
i’d suppose i’d like to discuss what it means to be burned by/burned out by the church and still live a full life in Jesus. i see so many pastors who’re ganged up on, their families attacked and as a wife of a supporting pastor, it’s so hard to watch. plus, it’s hard to be supportive, serve the church body (who’re broken just like me), and encourage my hubby.
i suppose it’s just like dealing with family; the people you love most can hurt you the most. sigh. i don’t know…
“Those Who Do Not Learn From History Are Doomed to Repeat It”
Do people not realize the bible has been used to justify hatred and oppression of others in the past? Look at slavery or apartheid, you can bet bible passages and inference were used as a basis to marginalize others and treat them like they were abominations. I can’t help but shake my head at people who say “OBVIOUSLY the bible says being gay is not alright.” I’m sure if they were living in some other time or place they’d be swapping gay out for being a woman or being black or anything else you could use the bible for to discriminate against.
Are Christians aware that our attitudes towards the gay community thus far has bred a great deal of pain and ignorance? Are we aware of how much damage has been done? Do we care? I just see a lot arrogance over being right. It’s gross how flippant a lot of Christians are towards the struggles of gay people. We need to stop hiding behind the bible to justify our hatred of others and actually love and care for them.
I think perhaps you should chat about the way the church deals with questions. Not the “is gay bad,” kind of questions. The, “so, why do you bother sending me to school to learn about science, language and history if I’m not supposed to listen to scientists, linguists and historians when they disagree with what I believe about the Bible?” kind of questions. Or the “what if I never “feel” like I’m in a relationship with God?” kind of questions. Why don’t churches ever deal with these kind of questions?
that’s such a good question! well said.
It is pretty cut-and-dry Biblically. Be careful that “I think…” doesn’t become a substitute for “God’s Word says…”
Ever since I became sexually aware I have felt compelled to have sex with as many women as possible. That doesn’t mean God created me that way. It is my sin nature. Choose to kill it, or choose to give in.
We all have sinful tendencies. I wanted to sleep with girls before I got married (I am a straight male). Other friends of mine wanted to get drunk. Other friends wanted to do all sorts of things clearly forbidden in scripture. None of us was wrong for wrestling with the tendencies, even the confusion (Why would God allow me to have a desire to sleep with women when I couldn’t act on it until marriage?). It wasn’t until my friends and I moved outside of God’s clear direction in scripture that we entered the sin realm. I don’t look down on someone who was “born” with a homosexual tendency, just like I don’t look down on my friends who naturally wrestle with the desire to overeat, have one too many drinks, or have sex outside of marriage. We’re all in the same place together. It’s what we do with our natural tendencies, in light of surrending to the truth and ways of Jesus, that make all the difference. Our natural, “born-with” tendencies always are required to submit to Jesus, his truth, and his ways.
Great insight. Love it.
Hey Los,
Love that you’re tackling this. As a youth pastor, I thrive on the fact that not only am I a “person of the second chance” but that we all have that opportunity for a second chance. That’s the hope I offer my students in Christ every day. We have several students who have professed homosexuality to be their lifestyle and my approach to befriending them and walking life with them is no different than students who are gluttons, addicted to porn, sleeping around already, out partying on the weekends, lying constantly to their parents, totally idiotic and mean to the people they call friends, or to the kid who seems to have it all together. I treat them all as a child of God, created in His image.
I love the dialogue on these comments and am so impressed it’s stayed so civil. This is what it’s all about.
Can you clarify YOUR initial post? I am struggling with your comments on what God “would say” because it seems you’ve indicated it is possible God would have created someone this way…the Lady Gaga proclamation.
While I agree we don’t understand the vastness of God I don’t think God stands for any kind of sin. Not homosexuality, lust, anger, murder, lying, anything. Yes, again, I agree that there are liars who proclaim Christ. There are porn addicts who proclaim Christ. So this blog has honestly changed my view on the question “how could a homosexual call themselves a Christian?” My struggle is, it sounds like we’re saying that’s ok. It’s not ok for any of us in any kind of sin. We are to pursue a life of Holiness because He is Holy. Yeah, there are very good people who have not had traumatic childhood experiences who struggle with some serious stuff. But that doesn’t change the fact that we, as people radically changed by the power of Christ, have to help them realize that while they may not understand why they struggle with whatever they do, it’s no reason to embrace it as their identity.
We are not perfect. Only He is perfect. But what separates us, followers of Christ, from those who do not yet follow Christ is the understanding of who we are.
I hope you have time to respond or feel free to email me on this. Thanks Los and thanks to everyone who has posted on here. This is encouraging to see the church and the community interacting and it’s rather civil. Great stuff.
Bryan
I like your Bryan!
I meant to say “I like your response Bryan!”
Thanks Aaron! Your post was right on as well man!
I would love to discuss with how you deal with this topic in your youth group. This subject is important to me because of how I was treated in mine at times. If ever you are interested in discussing – let me know
Women in leadership…REAL leadership: not the “we can be ok with this because they aren’t REALLY in charge” kind.
This is a subject that hits close to home for me. I’m a Christian and I’ve struggled with SSA (same-sex attraction) for what seems like my whole life. I however was sexually abused by one man around 3 and then by a youthworker from 5th thru 9th grade. That obviously muddies the waters for me. In my adult years I have experimented a ton with sex with men. It feels good – but something in my spirit doesn’t respond well to it. I think it is great to have “straight” people joining the conversation but it is hard for you to understand it and whether it is ok. There is something to be said about how one’s spirit responds to it in the midst of the act itself. When I participated in these acts after having really searched spiritually for ways to permit me to live this way – the truth illuminated things in me and my spirit then responded much differently during the sexual act and in relationship.
We don’t know if people are born this way or not but we are sure that people are born into sin. I think people may be born with a propensity toward one thing or another – but that doesn’t mean its ok. I have a lot of gay friends that disagree with my belief that SSA is a sin but I just know the journey Christ has taken me on.
There is a common message that the homosexual community is just like everyone else so accept it. But I will say that the homosexual community isn’t just like the straight community. It is very much different. Statistics show that there is increased promiscuity, alcohol and drug abuse as well. There is increased depression and suicide. There is a deep sense of pain in the community. I felt it and was part of it. Just do the work to research the details of what it is really like – it may change your leaning to accept it as OK.
This is not to say that gay identified people are worse than others (all people are equally broken in their humanity) but it is telling about the condition of them as individuals and as a community. I have seen first hand an increased sense of brokenness and pain in their lives, in my own life.
Los – people can be gay and Christian, just as we Christians are all sinners in flesh and saints in spirit. just be careful in addressing this topic and making sure to really research the causes, scriptures, societal effects, the effect of media messages on others and even you, etc. You may not realize how many people are just waiting to hear something that gives permission to resign to something that maybe they should struggle against. Absent fathers and sexual abuse aren’t the only contributing factors to SSA – there are many others. Look into Sy Rogers, Exodus International and other ministries addressing these issues.
All this to say – I am as broken as anyone and I am in process on this journey. I have done tons of research, counseling and exploration and I will admit the subject is confusing. However, I think if we all (including the church) would strive more on leading people, gay and straight alike, into growing relationships with Christ that things would be a lot better. The goal is for each person to encounter Christ – not a sexual identity change. The opposite of homosexuality is not heterosexuality – it is a complete and utter dependence on Christ.
After encountering Christ let him work on the gay person, and the straight peron. Let him minister and lead people on their journeys. Still speak truth though YET love people as God loves people. As Anne Lamott says “grace doesn’t leave you as it found you.”
Even my gay friends that have become Christians and haven’t stopped living the gay life – are drastically changing because of Christ – finding healing! Maybe they need it more in other areas than their sexuality first! But that doesn’t mean God accepts homosexuality.
Ok so I have rambled! Sorry!
Wow. Good stuff.
That’s a very fine response, thanks for sharing
Oh and to your question Los – I don’t think the church is addressing and ministering to addictions in Christians. Over 57% of Christians struggle with sexual addiction alone. Why isn’t the church addressing this issue? I would like to see discussions on this topic. If you want some good resources on this topic – let me know and I can email them to you.
I work with a man who is a devout Muslim. I asked him how he thinks of himself, or identifies himself. He said that first and foremost he is Muslim.
It supercedes his sexual identity, his job identity, even his gender.
Whereas most Christians identify first as either gay, straight, f-ed up sinner, auto mechanic, worship leader, man, woman, etc…everything but Christ.
Maybe we could talk about that topic. Why do we as Christians (mostly in the west… I don’t think the church in China or anywhere in the east has this problem) claim our identity to be anything and everything other than Christ?
good stuff
Amen.
We’ve got to figure out how to better serve people who are gay because just saying “submit your sinful desires to Christ” isn’t sufficient. It’s become a pat answer. How do they submit, what does that look like? Is there even a better answer? I think Aaron put it best: encourage a relationship with Christ first and foremost. Once they do that, he’ll handle the rest.
I’m also aware of the irony of the straight person saying that we all have sinful, sexual desires we have to control when the straight person has an eventual outlet (marriage – no, I’m not saying let’s go down the gay marriage road).
Carlos, you might find this website helpful as you plan your series. http://www.strengthinweakness.org/
Hope it helps and thanks for opening the dialogue about sensitive topics in churches today.
B
Have you ever seen the Dateline interview with Rick Warren?
He is asked by Ann Curry if science proves that some people are biologically predisposd to homosexuality…would he change his stance on gay marriage?
His answer is brilliant. He says “just because it is natural, it doesn’t mean its best for you or society. I’m naturally inclined to have sex with every beautiful girl I see, but that doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do.”
He goes on to say that “reigning in your natural impulses is part of maturity, delayed gratification, and character.”
Youtube link of interview is posted below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2ZwhdgiBgc
I think that is hilarious point of view for a heterosexual man to have. Perhaps, Rick should reign in his natural impulses and not have sex with his wife. It is not an argument that makes sense at all.
One of the books that really helped me think through this issue is Washed and Waiting: Reflections on Christian Faithfulness and Homosexuality by Wesley Hill.
It is a powerful and moving story of struggle and faithfulness.
Hill was raised in a loving Christian home, but at the age of 13 began experiencing homosexual desires. However, Hill has remained committed to Christianity’s traditional position that sex is intended to be experienced only within marriage between a man and a woman.
Hill shares the struggles that gay Christians face as they seek to live faithful to God’s “no” to homosexuality. Hill places his struggle within the larger story of struggle that all of us are called into as we follow Christ. The message of what Christ has done for us on the cross reminds us that all Christians, whatever our sexual orientation, will need to pick up our own cross and follow him. We must die to our natural desires and affections and come into conformity with Him.
He quotes New Testament scholar Richard Hays who says that all Christians, including homosexual Christians who battle with constant loneliness, are “summoned to a difficult, costly obedience while ‘groaning’ for the ‘redemption of our bodies’. Anyone who does not recognize this as a description of authentic Christian existence has never struggled seriously with the imperatives of the gospel, which challenge and frustrate our ‘natural’ impulses in countless ways.”
Romans 5:12 says “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.” Since Adam’s fall, we are all inclined to reject God, to act selfishly, to hate our enemies, to lie on our taxes, and to cheat on our spouses. Homosexual desires are no different than any of these. In fact, I would argue that the cause of all sin may be said to be “genetic” or inborn in that it is a result of our fallen human nature.
Salvation is about being delivered from these fallen desires and given a new Spirit-empowered desire to pursue God.
Some of us come to Christ with a propensity for alcoholism, fits of rage, chemical dependency, a domineering personality, or the constant need for attention. When we come to Christ we are called to put these things to death and follow Him. Does this mean the struggle is over? Hardly. It is a slow and arduous process that ultimately will not be complete until Christ’s return.
Hill considers himself a gay Christian who each day takes up his cross and willfully chooses to live a celibate lifestyle, anticipating a day when all things will be made new (Romans 8:23).
sigh. my head hurts – but in a good way.
Los – there are several scientific studies debunking the whole “your parents messed you up” theory of “why” folks are gay. That was old school “science” that has just been perpetuated for lots of years.
So, what I would love to see you cover is IF God tells us to love the crippled and lame… WHY is it that so many churches have SO little outreach to families with special needs children (and their families)?
Can you provide links to legitimate studies that have shown that? I’ve never seen one that tracked progress from infancy on up, nor have I seen one that wasn’t agenda-driven.
Not links on the internet that anyone can post – books. I’ve read several – the most convincing one being a meta-study of hundreds of other studies.
And pretty much all of science or any kind of study is “agenda driven” – it all starts with a theory that has been “observed” yet still filtered through the cognition of an individual who is doing the observing.
We will never be 100% free of bias in any study – OR 100% free of the bias filter used to READ the study…just some thoughts.
This topic never fails to garner an immense response, proving that there’s a lot that needs to be discussed and clarified for many of our congregations!
Growing up, nobody asked to hear my side of the story. Many automatically assumed the stereotypical reasons (bad father, etc.) but they never fit me. Los, I definitely relate to your friends in this way. It’s great to see so many people who aren’t like the church members I had growing up. I’m not speaking of complete allowance of indulgence, but rather their willingness to walk through this period of their lives with them. I’m gay, I’m a Christ follower. If Christ is going to be greater in my life, I have no other choice than to give all of myself to Him, praying that His desires become mine.
I said this a while back in another thread, God/the Bible does NOT call LGBT individuals to heterosexuality, but holiness
Absolutely. Well said.
I’m not a regular reader of this blog, but here’s the question I would love for more churches and Christians to ask:
Is “God says so” a legitimate basis for social policy?
For example, if you think sex between two men or two women is morally and Biblically wrong, does that mean that you should work against civil gay marriage or keep gay couples from adopting children? If so, where do you draw the line?
I’m moving in with my entirely non-religious boyfriend in two weeks, which I am fully aware is against the rules of every church I have ever attended – but it’s not illegal, and when we get married, having sex before marriage will not in any way affect our ability to get a marriage license. If we live together long enough, without getting married, we would still be recognized as common law husband and wife under California law. How do you decide which “sins” require legislation and which ones don’t? In a society that does not view the Bible as a source of authority, is the Bible a valid basis for civil policy?
(I’m officially apostate, BTW, and haven’t been to church in over 7 years. My relationship with my boyfriend is a great gift to me, I am very happy about my upcoming move, and feel no moral qualms.)
This may not sound like a sexy topic – but speaking as someone who has experienced Christianity from both sides, I think it is at the heart of a lot of negative perceptions of Christians and the church – ESPECIALLY in the LGBT community.
Peace.
To get (far, far) way from this gay conversation (see what I did there? I’m hilarious), I think one of your videos should be a candid conversation with some megachurch pastors about why they’re so terrified to hand the mic to a woman.
I’m guessing hilarity would ensue.
I’m a married Christian gay man and the parent of two boys.
I had a tight relationship with my parents. Until I came out to them. I’m sure that people who only knew us after I came out would assume that I had this stormy, distant relationship with my dad and that’s why I’m gay. No, he tore me apart when I came out to him at 20 and we were never able to fully mend our relationship. In fact, I finally cut him off about four months before he died after he began dissing our adoptive sons. They’re not blood like his other nephews. He was mainly upset that Mark and I were getting legally married here in Iowa, but he chose to attack me through my sons. My brother told me that Dad was just “old school”. Unfortunately, so am I and I don’t tolerate attacks on my sons. Not even from my dad.
I grow tired of people telling me that they lusted after someone besides their wife and that’s why I should remain celibate and single. Meanwhile, those folks get to go home to their wife and they want me to go home to an empty home.
I grow tired of straight people comparing my “lifestyle” (i.e., my relationship to my husband and my family) to drug addiction and pedophilia and adultery and theft and every other sin.
My point in joining in? I’m not sure. Mainly, I tire of listening to other make assertions about the lives of people who aren’t them. I get it that most Christians find my family and others like it repulsive to their sensibilities. Regardless, we still exist.
Here’s my question: Why should gay people and their families want to worship in the Christian church? And how should the church treat those families?
You sound incredible. If we lived in the same town – I would want to be your friend
Thanks Natalie! You’re too sweet.
Here are some things that I think are helpful in discussions on homosexuality:
1 – The Bible has to be our guide, not feelings, culture or opinions. Otherwise we’re not even starting from the same place so what’s the point of discussing it?
2 – It’s better to focus on the scriptures about what God wants FOR marriage and sex, rather than scriptures about homosexuality. It’s good to exegete both, but it’s more helpful to look at God’s will for than against.
3 – Sin is not just choices, it’s a nature, a disease. We are born with it. However, nurture definitely shapes development in every way, including the physical development of our brains.
4 – God defines what is good, just and right. One comment said that if love and sexuality are at odds, love trumps. That’s not how it works for God. It’s all/both, not either/or. Righteousness is not at odds with righteousness.
I haven’t read through every comment so maybe this has been addressed but I would love to hear from those who are gay about whether or not they think they were born with that desire, when they first felt it, if they think family system had anything at all to do with it, and pretty much any of the “hot button” sub-topics about homosexuality. I know about 6 gay men and I know what most of them would say but obviously that’s a very limited basis.
My view:
- Who am I to judge another’s sin?
- There’s enough info on the topic to wonder if it’s sinful in the first place. (research before you just throw bible verses out)
- Even if it is, why are Christians condemning? If someone is in a healthy gay or lesbian relationship, why is it a problem for YOU? What have they done that would a) cause others not to accept Christ, b) negatively affect you or others?
- Mt22:36, there’s nothing loving about condemning another. If you think you’re being loving by telling a gay man he’s wrong – especially someone you do not know and haven’t earned the right to speak into their life – then you haven’t yet learned what love is.
I didnt read all of the comments but, what about those that are bi?
also, when I worked at starbucks a few years ago my manager was open about being a lesbian, she was just as open about loving Jesus and being a leader in a local church. I’m curious why some “christians” have such an issue with homosexuals being leaders in the church. what is difference? other than their sin being put on display.
If someone can be born with a physical defect or disease, and then later be delivered and healed from it, is it also possible that someone could be born with this orientation, but later be delivered from it?
Being gay is NOT a sin. Just as a person of one ethnicity loving a person of another ethnicity isn’t a sin. Loving who you love regardless of what they look like on the outside or what their chromosomal makeup is, isn’t a sin.
To call love of any kind a ‘sin’ doesn’t seem very Christian to me? Isn’t God about love and acceptance?
Most Christians I know have the same view – “acting on homosexual tendencies isa sin”, i however don’t think it’s a sin…and it’s something i’ve thought about a lot. I agree with Marisa on this one – “To call love of any kind a ‘sin’ doesn’t seem very Christian to me? Isn’t God about love and acceptance?”. And i fully disagree with anyone who says the bible makes this a cut-and-dried issue.
And I’m straight, and almost Charlie Sheen f’ed up.
And I think it’s ok to say f’ed up…messed up and f’ed up don’t mean the same things. (this is in reply to abriggs)
My head is spinning a little bit here, but I’ll try to put together some coherent thoughts from my journey. My Christian faith was rocked when I left the confines of the US for Uganda for a little while to see what God looks like on this side of the world (I’m in Botswana for the summer), and ever since, the idea of Biblical literallists just burns me. Someone posted above that we need to read the Bible first and leave culture and feelings out of it. I wholeheartedly disagree. Most of the Bible was written over 2000 years ago in a culture that resembles nothing of what our American Christianity looks like today. And in languages that we don’t speak anymore! I think one of the main ideas for the Bible being written through humans has to be that God trusts us enough to see it through our own eyes. We all interpret scripture through our own lenses, through our life experiences and our geography. Someone else above mentioned the Wesleyan Quadrilateral (big word points?) of using Scripture, Reason, Tradition and Experience to view the world, and view our faith. All four have a valuable place in our worldviews, and God gave us the Bible, our brains, our human and religious history and our lives with which to interact with God.
On that note, I don’t think that homosexuality or acting on homosexual urges is a sin that needs singling out, if indeed it is a “sin” after all. Culturally speaking at the time the New Testament was written, sex was for reproduction and homosexual behavior was generally abusive in nature and resembled pedophilia as well. I think we’ve done pretty well populating (or over-populating) the planet, so I honestly, deeply in my soul cannot see our loving God caring whether your loving, committed relationship produces biological children or not. (and as a side note, for the “go forth and multiply” crowd, I can’t see God creating a beautiful world full of nature for us and then telling us to procreate to the point of destroying all of the rest of creation, so if you choose to not have children or can’t have children, that can’t be a sin either.) Also on that note, once we come to the complete understanding that homosexuality is a born trait, then how can we have a problem with children who were stuck in the foster system being raised by healthy committed couples, same sex or not, if environment doesn’t affect it?
Has it struck anyone else that the reason that the homosexual community is viewed as broken and isolated and full of dangerous decisions is because we’ve put them there? We in the majority (I’m including myself as a married, straight woman) have excluded and condemned these people’s complete identity into something that is dirty and wrong. Jesus didn’t call us dirty, he called us beloved. When an entire community of people is ostracized by society for something that they can’t change, and is so integrally part of their identity as human beings, how do you expect that community to flourish with healthy decisions and love? Christians were once an ostracized community, and I think that although Christianity thrived under persecution, the gay community has been told that God can’t love them, or their lifestyle, and therefore they reject the reason that the early Christians survived.
Los, have you considered bringing Jennifer Knapp into the conversation? Her ministry when I was a teenager was essential to my faith and her authenticity in her journey coming out to the church community is refreshing and welcome.
Anyway – Another topic for discussion that may cause a bit of a rumble… Are we American Christians or Christian Americans? Do we really know anymore where Christianity stops and Americanism starts? Trust me, the rest of the world is quite confused with us, and I think we are about ourselves too. Christianity wasn’t supposed to be political, Jesus wasn’t the political hero the Jews wanted him to be. He was about love, and grace, and changing the way people related to each other and to God. But all of that said, even in discussions with Europeans and Africans, it’s extremely difficult to parse out what is Christian and what is American, and although I fully believe in culture influencing how we have our faith, I think we need a reality check with which is which and try and find a way to identify ourselves as Jesus-followers first and people who vote for a political party second. (oh, and you can be a Christian and vote Democrat and not get struck by lightning.
)
(Los, you’re one of the few pastors I even care to pay attention to these days. Thanks for your authenticity and humor, and you have a lovely family, thanks for sharing them with the world too!)
Your words are such a blessing!!!
Brilliant…
I say, quite ashamedly from the comfort of my American home in my Gap flip-flops. =)
Carlos you are gifted. Thanks for raising the issue. Just shaking up our brains and getting all of us to think and discover where we stand, why we stand and how we stand under God is a good thing. You know I’m gay. I was ordained and my gayness didn’t taint my ministry. When I prayed with others I wasn’t secretly humming the latest club dance tune. When I comforted the dying and their families it didn’t strike me as a time to be particularly narcissitic. If I had a real choice I must have missed it. Why would I choose to create misunderstanding and judgement around me. This life is difficult enough. Amazing replies all of them. I wish I had an answer but I don’t. I do wonder what it means to “love me” even though what I choose to do with my partner is a punishable offense in the eyes of God. What is that love…tolerance, putting up with me, pity…is that love to help me feel better about my circumstance or is it to help you who offer me that “love” feel better. Honestly without judgement i can tell those of you who choose to love the sinner and hate the sin that you can RELAX. I’m really ok without that kind of love. I respect those of you who are flat out against my lifestyle and have deep convictions in that regard. Good for you. You may be right. I don’t know. I have 100 percent convictions in the love I’ve been called into and that I get to share on a daily basis. I believe that I don’t need to trust anyone other than God. And I know that God loves me. So relax and save that “love” for someone who can really benefit from it.
I’d find it incredibly difficult to be both straight and told NOT to act on my sexuality. So as easy as it is for straight folks to say “just don’t act on it!” it is much more difficult to put that into practice.
Straight people – try abstaining for 10-15 years. Then come to the table. I know I couldn’t do it!
For the record, I’m straight, married, mom to three boys. But I’m also sister to two incredible gay men and their partners. I couldn’t be more proud of the men they are and the families they’ve created.
God put desires in me for food, for entertainment, for friendship, for sex, etc. What I do with those desires is very important. If I let any one of those desires control me, it becomes sin in my life. God makes these desires, but he also provides appropriate contexts to enjoy them. If I eat like there’s no tomorrow and let food become my focus, it is sin. If I go out and sleep with a man who I am not married to, it goes against the context God provided for sex and is sin. Satan likes to take the good things God has given me and twist my view of them so that I desire certain things or people more than I desire God.
I feel that God provided a Biblical context for relationships, as well, and in the same way that every polygamous relationship in the Bible turned out badly, nothing good is ever said about homosexuality in the Bible, either. Just as our money and talents can be used for ungodly purposes, so can our relationships. I sort of think that if God had intended homosexuality to be ok, he might would have given us an example of a Godly homosexual relationship in His Word. But I do also know there are a lot of things in our world which are good that are not specifically mentioned in the Bible…
I don’t know a lot of gay people. I have 2 gay friends and several gay acquaintances and co-workers, and the one thing I’ve seen in common with many of them is that the church has hurt them. One of my friends (who I was very close to) pretty much cut me off and never spoke to me again after he came out because he thought that I was going to beat him over the head with a Bible or something. Granted, I said some unloving things before I knew he was gay that I shouldn’t have said (and now I try SO hard to show God’s love and grace to people, especially my gay friends), but it really saddens me that I ruined a friendship because I counted his sin as worse than my own. I do believe his lifestyle is sin, don’t get me wrong, but it is no different than my sin, except for the fact that I have been given grace to cover that sin and help me fight temptation in my life.
Fighting any pattern of sin in life is extremely difficult, and that battle can only be won if God is fighting it. So I don’t expect my non-Christian friends to be able to give up their pet sin, whether that sin is homosexuality, gossip, gluttony, pride, etc, without trusting God to forgive them and give them the grace they need to be able to repent.
I guess now when I talk to my non-Christian friends, whether they are gay or straight, I try very hard to not judge them for their words or actions, but to remember that I was a non-believer once, too, and that I was so glad that someone cared enough about me to tell me how I could find peace and forgiveness in my life. As I talk to them I hope that our friendship would create open doors of communication to discuss God’s word and his love for them honestly.
Well, for the record I have read every. single. post. before replying here to avoid too much repetition.
I thought that HeatherEV, Chad, Joel, Jeff, & Dean pretty much summed up what I think. I absolutely think that truly gay people (truly, meaning: not reacting to abuse, or just shock-value club kids) are born with a proclivity to it–much like my Uncles who are raging alcoholics, or me, who will probably never-ever-see a size 12 again…However, like many others on this board have said, I don’t think that activing on homosexuality is any worse of a sin than others.
BUT therin lies the problem. We say that, but do we mean it? Many in the church say “I am broken,” or “Who am I to judge?” We then claim to recognize our total depravity and the need for God’s grace, yet when it comes down to it, in our day-to-day interactions, do we really–REALLY–treat homosexuality just like “any other sin”? Not from what I’ve seen. I think, partly, becuase homoSEXuality has an “icky” factor, and we’re not really sure what to do with it (how do we explain Mary & Melissa to our kids?), and partly becuase may of us don’t have “normal” gay people around us to break the stereotypes of “superflamers” who are ready to march at a moment’s notice, we DO treat gay people as if they are much worse than the “rest of us.” A vast number of people have decided to segregate the GLBT community and they have, in essence become the Church’s modern-day lepers.
So, no, I don’t think homosexuality is any worse of a sin than others. Yes, I would welcome homosexuals to my church. Yes, I admit I would be “creeped out” a little–even though I do have several gay friends. I would be uncomfortable only becuase I have not explained homosexuality to my 8 year old daughter. No, I do not want homosexual clergy. No, I do not want any pastor that commits adultery, has a gambling addiction, is abusive to his/her children, or does anything else that (a) will make it hard or impossible for me to look for them to guidance or (b) will distract me as I think about it when they are preaching (just being honest).
Also, topics like this make me so grateful that I am just me. Truly saved by grace and loved by God, and I don’t have to do anything else but LOVE the hell out of people. Show them Jesus and he’ll do the rest. I absolutley am a Sola Scriptura girl, even when it means wrestling with tough issues like this. But, God is so big! Even with Divine revelation, we’ll never get the full picture until we’re all holding hands in the New Jerusalem. (Oh, and I totally think that the guy next to me–by the crystal sea—Yeah, I think he might be gay…)
It took me over a week to think of it, but what about Divorce? I did a search, found it mentioned 5 times in 200 comments, 3 by one person, 1 in response, and one passing comment.
So, I echo them: Doesn’t Jesus have extremely direct words regarding divorce? And the Bible about marriage? I mean, any man who marries a divorced woman also commits adultery? That kinda sucks. Takes about half the single women off the market.
Jokes aside, divorce isn’t even on the radar anymore, and I think it should be.
I would be interested to hear you discuss growing up evangelical and how it affects your view of God as an adult. Kids don’t really think abstractly. So is it possible that these ideas of sin and grace and the pressure of “You might be the only Jesus your friend ever sees so witness to them or they will probably go to hell” are too much for kids and actually end of warping your view of God (and making people leave the church as adults)? Are we being careful enough with how we present the complexity of the Christian faith to our kids?
Hi. I let u a little book: “Defending a higher law” that u have to read.