Troy is dead. Mark is dead. God is sad.
I’d like to address the MacPhail family. Let you know, despite the situation you are in, I’m not the one who personally killed your son, your father, your brother. I am innocent. The incident that happened that night is not my fault. I did not have a gun. All I can ask … is that you look deeper into this case so that you really can finally see the truth. I ask my family and friends to continue to fight this fight. For those about to take my life, God have mercy on your souls. And may God bless your souls.
These were the last words spoken by Troy Davis tonight. 7 minutes later he was dead.
As dead as Mark MacPhail who was brutally murdered back in 1989 is.
2 men dead.
One man not able to defend himself.
The other man defending himself until the last second.
I don’t care if you are pro death penalty or against the death penalty.
It’s a sad evening tonight.
Sad because we remember a child of God who was murdered in 1989 while he was doing his job.
Sad because we remember a child of God who was executed tonight while he declared his innocence.
We may not ever agree on the politics of today,
But I think we can agree that God is sad today…
As well we all should be.
Los
RAIN IT DOWN
I’m sad for it tonight. But I have some questions based on ur post.
What constitutes a child of God?
And what do we do with the promise that God works all things for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose? how does that fit in this situation whether we call them a child of God or not?
The death of a person is never to be taken lightly and that is not my intention, but I believe the discussions on this blog are very helpful for the maturity of some believers and i always appreciate the ability of this blog community to ask hard questions.
I think we are all children of God. Some of us get to figure it out the happy way, some of us get to figure it out the hard way.
Thanks for the graceful response. Just thinking also that the “American church” doesn’t often worship in song from that angle of children of God. We should change that.
This is true. Very true
I’m going to have to do some digging on this answer. Not sure I agree. It says we are adopted which would mean becoming a part of the family is not a given. Sorry if I’m taking that too literally, it just made me think…
I totally agree. I don’t think that we are all children of God, one of the main themes of the New Testament is adoption by the Father and it is contained in almost every epistle. Romans 8 is saturated with it.
Oh, and who are we to decide if Troy was not a Christian?
Definitely not deciding who was a Christian here and who wasn’t. Just who you can call a child of God IF you don’t know.
yeah, I second that. I have no clue if he was or wasn’t. Just speaking on the Child of God issue
Thats a good thought. But I am assuming that every child born into this world is Gods. Then we get to choose to stay with him or not.
that I can buy into
Bro,
I’m not saying this is an angry, crazy-Calvinist way. I’m simply trying to think logically here. What you say doesnt really make sense, does it? You said we are all God’s children and some figure it out and some don’t. That doesnt make sense according to Luke 15. Luke 15 states that God finds all of his lost sheep (children), his lost coins (children), his lost son (children). Jesus doesn’t lose children. All of his children come home.
Im not saying there is less value in people that are not Christians. This is not true. All people are valuable. All are made in the image of God. But we shouldn’t take that truth and conclude from this that all are God’s children.
Right? Thoughts?
So my cousin who was born yesterday… He is not God’s child? If he dies tomorrow? He is not God’s child? I don’t know.
Well not we have to have a much larger theological question about children. Lets have a beer and talk!
Anyway, the short of it is that I do believe that God is merciful and good so if your cousin dies tomorrow God will receive him as his own.
But you and I both know we are talking about people in general. And I do believe the Bible is crystal clear that he does not lose his own. They will be saved. They can’t be lost. And so clearly he does not consider all people to be his children.
Or do you have a biblical example of his calling all people his children? Ephesians 2:3 is clear that the rest of mankind are children of wrath. You and I (by God’s grace!) are not children of wrath. We are children of the inheritance.
Make sense? Thoughts?
Good thoughts. I guess I don’t like to make the assumption that these two were not believers in Christ. I have found only that Troy Davis was a believer not the police officer. So maybe I should have only used that for Troy…
I didn’t know Troy was a believer. It just sounded like you were calling them (as well as the rest of humans) Gods children.
I shouldnt have jumped to that conclusion. Thanks for your thoughts. And your dialogue. Enjoy grace today, bro.
And to be clear, I am sad today too. It sucks that a man that claimed he was innocent died last night. I feel for his family. It is a sad day.
I agree that I am heartbroken over this.
But what does it mean for God to be sad?
That seems like a dumb question but all honesty I don’t understand wha is, meant by that phrase.
Does God hurt each time one of his children die? Or he sad over injustice?
Just things I’m wrestling with tonight…
Yes and…
Typing on my phone led to a question that doesn’t make sense…oops
My question is more wondering about what it means for God to hurt. where is that line between sins Christ has paid for already and ones that still hurt the heart of God?
Does this make more sense?
As a now retired LEO I have seen the lives destroyed by police officers who were murdered over.. nothing. As a LEO I struggled many a time with upholding and enforcing man’s laws, using the job as a witness tool to help others, and to see how much pure evil does walk amongst us.
With that said, i simply pass along food for thought I read on a police news website as opinion to counter the media (and social media) discussions taking place tonight. Read on:
The US Supreme Court granted this cop killer a hearing (something they have not done for a death row inmate for over 50 years) for him to prove his innocence and they (the defense) failed. All of the witness misidentification arguements were argued at trial and were ruled upon by the trial judge. The current defense arguments include the fact a prosecution witness, after 11 years, couldn’t identify the cop killer now (who cares, she DID at trial) and apparently someone else has confessed to the crime. What is not being said is the new “confessor” does not have sufficient knowledge of the details of the crime to have actually done it. ALL OF THESE ISSUES HAVE BEEN ADJUDICATED THROUGH VARIOUS POST-CONVICTION APPEALS AND HEARINGS AND BEEN FOUND INSUFFICIENT TO OVERTURN THE ORIGINAL CONVICTION!!! What is taking place is a slap in the fact to Officer MacPhail’s family and all law enforcment officers.
1. I don’t know what a LEO is.
2. No one is saying anything about this man’s innocence here.
3. God is still sad.
1)Law
Enforcement
Officer
(sorry about that)
2) I agree, but they are everywhere else..
3) Yes He is.
4) Grateful for this community, BTW.
Thanks for your words…
And thanks for what you did for our community, both on and offline…
Cops and prosecutors are like all other humans they hate to admit that they are wrong…especially when they have worked themselves into a furor. There are demonstrable cased of this happening in our country, here is Michigan our DA refused to admit a mistake and tried to keep a dying man in jail (who had been there 25 years) after it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was innocent and that the police and others 25 years earlier had trumped up the evidence.
I am not suggesting that Troy was innocent, I have no idea, I am just suggesting that what you have here is two groups with a bias and only one with power to act on it…Getting truth in these cases in hard.
Taking that into consideration the article you posted that keeps referring to the accused as “Cop-killer” show a pejorative that even if true is not appropriate for a believer.
I am hoping and praying that both men were saved. That’s all that really matters.
If they were can you imagine that reunion in heaven when sin involved. WOW!!!!
when sin is NOT INVOLVED. Good grief!!!
I agree God is sad and I’m sad and the families are sad. The only hope I have is that God is now able to judge with truth and the eternal judgement is more important than any judgement man gives.
For those who believe in a God of Love, Forgiveness & Grace, it is difficult to support a state sanctioned execution. I feel this was not an issue of guilt or innocence, but rather the act of taking a life. Are we not called as Christians to turn the other cheek & pray for those who persecute us?
Also an underlying issue within all of this is the ability for those who are not white to get fair shot within the justice system. My mother grew up in Nashville, TN, and one of the field trips in high school was visiting the jail (why, who knows?). Her comment all these years later was the jail hung pictures of everyone who had been executed, nearly all were African-American.
If we are called to be people of God,
we must act accordingly in faith.
I was okay with the death penalty up until about last week. Then the reality hit me that they kill people. They KILL people. It made my stomach turn over because they’re taking away that person’s chance at repentance and receiving God’s grace. You’re ending their life on earth. I know some people are messed up in the head, and that they will never be safe for the world. Is it still okay to kill them? A small part of me says it’s more humane than locking them up for the rest of their life. But a large part of me says that they’re still killing that person.
I believe God is sad when we are sad. He hurts for and with us.
I don’t believe in the death penalty. I think this man should have spent life in jail if he did this crime.
I do pray for both families and I pray that if he didn’t do it, they come to know this for sure.
As a former law enforcement officer and, now, a pastor I can say that I have wrestled with this question for MANY years and have stood in both camps. I have read Leviticus 24:17 “Anyone who takes another person’s life must be put to death.” I have also read Jesus’ words in response found in Matthew 5 about revenge. I’ve reasoned (correctly or incorrectly) that Jesus was talking to individuals, not governments or nations. I still wrestle with which is correct.
I stand in the camp against the death penalty these days for a variety of reasons, chief among them because it is not a deterrent to crime. For any punishment to be effective it must be swift and sincere. You must know that it WILL happen and it MUST happen soon after the offense, otherwise it loses it’s intended purpose. Think of punishing your kids ten years later for an offense they committed when they were 7.
I do not believe that God is against punishment or consequences.
I do not believe that our system of criminal justice is perfect but I do believe that it is the most fair of any in the world today.
I do believe that ALL of God’s word is true and today, as everyday, I cling to Romans 8:28.
Totally agree, it must happen swiftly after the crime to act as a deterrent.
This is mainly in response to Mike…How do we reconcile the God of the OT with the Jesus of the NT? God’s love leads to his longsuffering, his patient waiting for man to turn from sin and turn to God. God wants to redeem his creation, but God’s patience and forgiveness doesn’t last forever, as evidenced numerous times in the OT, and as evidenced by the fact that our human lives are temporal and when we die we end up in one of two places. Those that don’t trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins will end up in hell. God desires to redeem his creation, but his perfect sense of justice requires that a penalty for sin be paid, and if we don’t accept Jesus’ gift of payment for our sins then we must pay it.
Christians often struggle with the “turn the other cheek” passage. My thought is that we turn the other cheek when an offensive remark is made, we don’t start fights with people, we love them and offer ourselves in service to them even if they are gruff and rude and mean. But because we are God’s children, made in his likeness, we have worth, and I would argue that God’s justice demands we protect people from real harm, which is different than offensive comments and remarks. Yes, turn the other cheek, but when attacked, defend yourself and stop the evil that threatens you.
Government institutions weren’t necessarily ordained by God, but in the OT the people wanted a king, and so they got one. Now that we have that institution, Jesus tells us to honor and pray for our leaders. We find ourselves in a nation where some states allow different forms of the death penalty. This is what our leaders have decided to this point. This is what we have decided to allow to happen by either voting or not voting in our participative government. There are many factors involved. I don’t know that I agree a government should practice taking lives as penalty for crimes, but he went through an exhaustive appeals process and this was the outcome. Like Carlos said, it’s a sad event. Personally, I’m not too concerned with whether or not the government made the right decision, but rather did Troy Davis make the right decision to trust in Jesus before he died last night. How many of our societies worst offenders will we see in heaven? And will it matter then?
Jon – you bring up a good point and one that many wrestle with; the reconciliation between a seemingly wrathful OT God and a merciful Jesus. There are some very good theological works regarding this subject that might help some people. John Howard Yoder’s The Politics of Jesus and Greg Boyd’s The Myth of a Christian Nation is a good place to start. If you want specifics, JH Yoder also wrote a book about the death penalty (I think it’s called The Death Penalty Debate.
One other thing and it’s a slight quibble. I may just be reading you wrong. You state, “We find ourselves in a nation where some states allow different forms of the death penalty. This is what our leaders have decided to this point. This is what we have decided to allow to happen by either voting or not voting in our participative government.” I’m not sure if I’m following your logic. Are you suggesting that we should be submissive to the government or legislation that we find unjust? As someone called to a higher Kingdom, I find much to quibble and disagree with in this earthly kingdom that I live in. I hope as messengers of Hope, we continue to speak in ways that lovingly but strongly point to the way of Christ when it’s at odds with the ways of the State.
should we be submissive to a government we find unjust? yes, to a point. we are fortunate to find ourselves in a nation that allows the people to rule (sort of) through their votes. We have a voice and we should use those means first rather than illegal tactics like bombing abortion clinics or spray painting walls or sending anthrax to politicians. We can pray for change, encourage others to vote, get involved in our participative govt. I will always side with my conscience and what I believe lines up with God’s commands to love him and love my neighbor. There will always be much to quibble about, and I’ve heard that topic best expressed like this…there are open handed issues and closed handed issues. The closed handed issues I will fight for and disobey unjust laws over, such as Christ being God, he died for my sins, etc. I won’t beat someone over the head with peripheral open handed issues like calvinism vs arminianism, pre-tribulation vs post tribulation, predestination, etc. And this holds true with my approach to politics and how I as a christian try to live in a nation that I may disagree with but offers me a vote. I start with the vote and if I need to escalate, I will.
I’m for the death penalty. I know people paying a price for crimes, and dying for it, is gruesome, but in order for society to function I believe its necessary. God allows people to choose Hell, as hard as it is for me to accept. In the Old Testament , scripture was very clear on strong consequences for actions, serious actions,got serious consequences.
Scripture does not teach that we are all God’s children. We are adopted into the family.
Our justice system isn’t perfect, innocent people do die,or face consequences for things they didn’t do. I do not believe we will ever have perfect justice till the perfect one, Jesus, comes. He is the only one, perfect and just.
While, I wish society didn’t need such harsh costs for killing, stealing, raping, I’m glad we have a system. I think we need to look at why areas aren’t working in it, but I don’t believe the answer is softer consequences.
While the details of Troys case I do not know fully, but if the gentleman above, is right on his chances for appeal, then justice was served at best for a imperfect world.
His is sad, when any of us make wrong choices, but he does teach us that we CAN obey him ,and have His blessings.
If he knew Jesus, which it seems he did, I look forward to meeting him in the next life!
You said “Our justice system isn’t perfect, innocent people do die…”
That is reason enough to be against the death penalty.
Last year a violent crime was committed every 25.3 seconds, a murder occurred every 35.6 minutes, a forcible rape every 6.2 minutes, two abortions every minute.
Though we learn about these victims through cold statistics, God uniquely created each and every one of them… our God must be a very sad God.
The loss of human life is never something to celebrate. I believe in redemption and God’s patience not wanting any to perish…
I remember watching ‘Dead Man Walking’ years ago and it completely change my feeble mind concerning the death penalty. I don’t like it, I’m not for it, but it is a part of our society.
Thanks Los.
Ezekiel tells us that God does not delight in any death. The gospel tells us that we have heard an eye for an eye but we should turn the other cheek. I’m growing weary of ethical issues being turned political. Thank you, Los, for your blunt and necessary statements.
Until we stop killing each other (as individuals or as “the state”) I think God will continue to be sad. It’s time we turn to grace, not vengeance.
I used to be in the pro-death penalty camp. And then I wrote a 40 page thesis in college about capital punishment and changed my mind on the subject. It’s used arbitrarily, it doesn’t deter crime. But, most important of all, it’s saying what Jesus did on the cross doesn’t cover you, the death row inmate. Our government plays God and takes redemption off the table. If we as Christians truly believe that Jesus forgives, then how can we support something that has the potential to preempt Christ’s forgiveness? Justice can be served without execution.
I saw the tweets start last night about 10 til 7 – until that point (because I am horrible about watching the news) – I didn’t know anything about it. My heart sank and continues to sink about all of this…
God is sad. You’re right.
I think we are all children of God. In the story of the lost son brought up by another commenter, the son was no less a son when he was away from the father than he was when he came back.
But again, God is sad…and sad we should be too.
The point of my comment earlier was not that the son was lost and then found. The point was that man had two sons, not all the sons in the world were his. And that man represents God. Just because he had a lost son doesnt mean all the sons in the world are his.
Right?
Good point. But it depends, at least I think it depends, because if the father represents God then the brothers wouldn’t just represent two children though, right?
Heck, I don’t know where I’m going with this (forgive my harsh language
.
One thing I can say for certain is that I read the gospels and I see Jesus treating everyone like they were his children…and if that’s the way he treated it, then we should too.
Does that make sense?
He treated everyone like his children? I don’t think so. What about the Pharisees? Look at how he talks to them: http://www.esvbible.org/search/brood+of+vipers/. He never speaks of his own this way.
Thoughts?
I knew that would come up. That’s Jesus version of tough love. He called Peter satan too, don’t forget that.
Tough love? He told them they were going to hell because of their religion. Thats not tough love. Thats altogether different I think.
There is no question that God is always saddened by the sins of imperfect humans, especially when one murders another.
However, God also loves justice (Isaiah 61:8), and I don’t think he is ever saddened when justice is properly served.
I wish all of this didn’t come down to politics. Everyone spends too much time debating the death penalty. If Jesus were here, he wouldn’t debate the death penalty with you. He’d sit with his friend (guilty or innocent) until the the end.
As for being children of God… it sounds to me like refuting that statement is saying that we’re not of God. He knows every hair on my head and knit me together in my mother’s womb, if that doesn’t make me His child… I’m not sure what does.
Your biological father would grieve for you if you lost your life at the hand of another man (whether deserved or not) … I would hope my Heavenly Father would do the same.
well said…much better than my attempt.
On the original topic. I think God is always sad when we kill one another and try to define justice outside of Him. As to the children of God issue, Paul spoke of children of light and of darkness, of the two being separate. Now when that grouping begins I am not sure. God is the judge of hearts not people.