Bring the heat.
So, we sparked some legit conversation the other day when I brought up The Elephant Room Round 2.
I told you we’d be partnering with them to have some heated discussion of our own. So answer me this:
What topics would you love to see on our Elephant Room/Ragamuffin Podcasts?
What blunt conversations can we have about current church and ministry? I know you’ll shoot straight with me.
So, bring it.
RAIN IT DOWN
Hey ‘los. Hears my suggestion: Discuss the validity (or lack thereof) of “Christian Watchdogs” who feel their calling is to watch out for doctrinal error and point it out. This is always a contentious issue. Is there a place for “safeguarding the truth”? Yes. Is it often done from a place of self-righteousness rather than humility? Yes. Is a “public” ministry open to sharp public criticism because they are in the public eye? I’d love to hear that discussion.
God bless you brother.
Wow. I just started that comment with “hears my suggestion.” Grammar Nazis, give me a minute to don my bulls-eye t-shirt before you commence firing…
That would be “Here is” or “Here’s” as you would put it.
Hope your T-Shirt on.
Curious. What has been your experience with the theological and doctrinal “Watchdogs”?
Talking with friends and co-workers who aren’t saved, bring up things that most churches / pastors/ leaders don’t do a good job communicating in their roles. “How can a loving God do so much wrong and live so contradictory to who Christians say He is (Job, wars, destruction, jealousy)” & the topic of homosexuality(male and female) how can Christians assume that homosexuals are wrong when there are proven results that it is scientific and people are affected genetically.
I personally don’t do the best job I can with helping them with understanding these topics, and most of my leaders don’t help either. Why is there a breakdown in leadership, communication, and a terrible disjointedness with our leaders and us being able to tell them what we need.
I was just at the NYWC conference last week. Great guys teaching, leading and all that… but the “How big is your group” question was back in action among the youth pastors! I should have just worn a t-shirt that said, “Ask me about my CHENIS”… or maybe “My CHENIS is bigger than yours”… or perhaps, “It’s not the size of your CHENIS that matters, it’s what you do with it”. On a side note: we only ever hear from pastors who have a big one. Where are the small church pastors who are faithfully leading their churches. That’s who’s in the crowd at these conferences!
Let’s chat about that, or women in ministry being called PASTORS.
Church/Music/Worship/Conferences in America is now a HUGE BUSINESS. Celebrity stardom for a ‘calling’ & a ‘kingdom’ that used to be about being a servant & being last. This is a dangerous, dark, lonely, unprotected ‘fold’ for the sheep.
As someone who is staunchly Complimentarian in my theology, I would like to see a discussion about the Complimentarian vs Egalitarian ideas. Any time the issue of gender comes up here it always seems to be the same type of discussion. Complimentarians quote the Bible and egalitarians give prime examples of how women can minister in effective and God-honoring ways, so they wonder why we limit the role of Elder to men. I want to see some people who have actually studied the topic for years come together to discuss, lovingly, the different sides. I believe the topic is one of the most important ones for the church going forward.
I would like to see/participate in a discussion about what “community” means for the Christian today.
We see that some Christians believe “community” literally means living together communally, being rooted in your neighborhood, etc., while others see living in community as being involved in church, being “plugged in” to a small group, etc.
I just like that tension and feel like a lot of fruit could come from that conversation for sure.
Pews or no pews… Yeah, I think THAT is the elephant in the room. : )
Pews are good! You can stretch out better when you’re ready to sleep
LOL!!!!
Why – especially among Christians – is adoption such a foreign concept? Adoption is the essence of salvation and there is no Christianity without it (in the spiritual sense) – yet in the physical sense it is rarely considered as an option…
“LIKE”!!!!!!!!!!!
Amen!!! Its a life changing experience. Not only to those who are in the process but it opens the eyes of the hearts of so many who are introduced to it. Adoption rocks!
I know plenty of churches who wouldn’t let a homosexual male or female serve on the worship team, or help out with their children’s programs, or be on their greeting team… let alone be a staff member of a church. What are the thoughts on homosexuals holding a place of leadership in the church?
at some point you have to call sin as sin.
Regardless of what our culture says the scripture says Homosexuality is sin. (it’s no better or worse than any other sin.) If someone is engaging in a habitual sin and not seeking Christ through repentance, and is not longing to be reconciled to Christ (i don’t care what the sin is) they should not have a role as leader in the church.
For some reason folks have decided well, maybe homosexuality is normal. What does the scripture say?
Romans 1:25-28
New International Version (NIV)
25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.
This is cut and dry. This should not even be an issue in the church. Should we love them? YES, YES, YES!!!!!!!!!! But at what point do we say this is sin, and you need to seek righteousness?
If we say we love someone, and yet allow them just to keep heading down a path of destruction is not really love.
Big cop out, Caleb. When have you ever heard of someone being told they can’t serve on the worship team because, “you’re a gossiper and live a gossiping lifestyle” or “you know you’re a bit of a glutton and live in gluttony and are not fit for leadership”. What makes you think YOU’RE right and THEY’RE wrong.
Steve,
I agree with you! Sin is sin. I am of the mindset that simply believes the scripture. If Ior someone else was habitually engaging in a sin (ie gossiping, over-eating, downloading porn, having sex with a married woman, or another man, the list can keep going) and I was not daily repenting, and daily seeking Christ likeness I should not be in leadership.
1 Timothy 3:1-7 gives an outline of what leaders in the church should look like.
What makes me think I’m right? It’s not about ME “BEING RIGHT” It’s about what the Bible says.
If what I think/do rubs against the scriptures, then I am the one who needs to change…not the scripture
Here is a great sermon from Matt Chandler on this issue:
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2010/06/23/matt-chandler-seminary-on-homosexuality/
Great thoughts guys.
I just really struggle with deciding which “sin” we call out and which sins are okay.
I lead worship several times a month at my church but I also sin all week long. I’d be super bummed if the leaders of my church didn’t let me lead worship because I sinned 5 minutes before getting on stage.
I’m totally aware of what the Bible says – but I think we walk a really fine line deciding that ‘certain people’ (homosexuals specifically) cannot serve because their sin is a little more outward than someone else’s porn addiction, or gossiping addiction, or food addiction or what about individuals who have sex before marriage and think it’s ok?
I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong. I think this is one of the hardest things church leaders and congregation members have to deal with. I am just not convinced that “loving” our brothers and sisters who struggle with homosexuality is enough… I think they should be given the same opportunities to serve as I have.
I guess that’s why I’d love to hear this issue discussed this year at the Elephant Room. I think it’s important, and I think it’s something many churches just choose not to deal with.
What I’m saying, Caleb, is that the Bible says what you want it to say. I’m convinced of that as much as anything whether we’re talking about homosexuality or women as pastors. Each side backs their perspective up with scripture and are absolutely sure before god that theirs is the correct way. “A woman can serve as pastor and here is what the bible says…” “Oh, no, they can’t. This is what the bible REALLY says about that….” Sorry, but nobody knows what they’re talking about.
If nobody knows what they’re talking about, what’s the point in engaging in conversation?
When did the church decide being gay is the one group of people we’re not capable of loving?
There is a difference between loving them, and accepting their lifestyle as another “norm” Eventually you’re going to have to call sin, sin. (and this is not just in homosexuality). I am all for us loving them, but at what point do we say this is not godly behavior?
As Matt Chandler says: It’s ok not to be ok, but don’t stay that way.
The whole process of sanctification is we become transformed, not conformed to the patters of the world.
At some point you loving them, is going to give way to a form of validity of their lifestyle.
We had a (heterosexual) couple in our church that came for a long time, and they came to the leadership of the church and said “We wanna be members.” our leaders told them in order to become a member you two need to get married.” they got pissed…and said “You can’t tell us how to live our lives.” and they left.
The issue at hand was their was not a willingness to submit to any authority. It’s not that the church did not love them, but there are things God has put in place to bring joy in our lives, and alot of folks don’t want to submit to those ideas…rather they are up for what they think is good and normal.
Good replies, Caleb. My concern is that we (the Church) have zeroed in on this group of people and made them the focus of our ire. Meanwhile, we’re ignorant to our own habitual sins.
I am in a season right now because of some stuff that I’m going through where I am regularly a complete ass to my wife and kids. It has NOTHING to do with them. It’s my own internal filth coming out to play. But it hurts them. A lot. I am in the process of working it out. In the mean time, do I need to leave the church? Do I need to turn in my Christ-follower membership card and stop professing my love for a divine creator I’ve loved for my whole life?
Yet that’s what happens in churches across this country every week. Churches- some well meaning, some not so much- tell gay couples to “straighten up” or get out. Meanwhile, in kid’s ministry, the girl watching your children was at the club until 3 am and has whiskey sours seeping through her pores. Yet we see her as a “worthy cause” and invest in helping her “get well.”
We’re doing it wrong.
I heard Andy Stanley say “we’re more interested in making a point than we are at making a difference.” The world is waiting for us to be exactly who we think they are. In this area, I’m sad to say we’re giving them exactly what they’re looking for.
We are who they think we are. Not everywhere, but we are in this area to be sure.
That last paragraph should have read “waiting for us to be exactly who THEY think WE are.”
Good thoughts Virgil.
It’s true – just like the rest of the world the church has chosen to make this one group feel alienated.
I think Jesus showed us a pretty good example of how we should treat our homosexual brothers and sister – by not only loving them but inviting them into our lives to share and live and learn together.
Look who Jesus chose as his disciples. They weren’t all perfect – they were actually people who the rest of the world didn’t necessarily want to hang out with.
I know what the Bible says about sin. But I also know that God is a God of second chances and most of all, He is a God of love. I’ve just seen too many people get hurt because Christians are trying to “fix” them. Maybe we’re the ones that need to be fixed.
Word.
“let you who has no sin …”
btw- “God of Second Chances” would be a rad name for a song.
I would love to have the multisite conversation again. This instead of having 2 guys up there who are multisite why not trying to get someone who actually is against multisite talking with someone who is in favor. In Round 1 that topic was a waste of time because there was no actual disagreement. Questions like:
If a campus would only have 100 people without the superstar on the screen should you still launch it, or why not just plant churches with pastors called to preach. Where does multisite lead us in 20 years when Mars Hill and LifeChurch have 1500 campus.
Another topic I would love to hear brought up is why all of the twitter guys always tweet about how when you face adversity or public hate it’s just a sign that you’re doing the right thing, but yet they publicly bash Rob Bell. Does that mean he is doing the right thing?
From Mark Driscoll’s site
“We haven’t finalized topics yet. But, since Mark Dever opposes multiple services and sites for a church, and the use of video for preaching, and most of the other participants do approve, we could have some fun with just that.” your wish has been granted.
I love that you brought up the adversity topic.
Oh….1 more
How many people got saved or baptized on twitter is the new “How much you bench?” If its not always about the numbers how come thats the only thing we tweet about?
I have a question. You, Carlos, write:
“The Elephant Room is about yearly disturbing and disrupting the way we think, the way we lead, and the way we do church.”
This sounds great. But I just watched the trailer. And I wonder, how do you want to disturb and disrupt the way you think if you only listen to the same voices that the church (and western society) has always listened to? If you want real disruption, shouldn’t you (also) listen to the voices of those who were historically told to be silent, who are now still not heard as often, unless people make a conscious effort to listen?
I’m saying this because: 1 How many people of color do you see in the trailer? (one?) 2 How many women of any color?
Is your question one of race? Or are you saying there should be other religions involved?
No, I’m not saying there should be other religions involved. Inter-religious discussions can be interesting, but this is definitely not meant as one. It’s not exactly a question of race either. It’s the question, can a conversation be disrupting if it’s a conversation between those who are traditionally in power?
Race and gender are two classification systems that give power to some and withold it from others. When it comes to race and gender, the people in the video seem to fall mostly on the “powerful” (can’t think of a better way to say it right now) side of the spectrum. Wouldn’t it be important to give a voice to those who are less powerful too? And would it, maybe, be more likely that would lead to disruptive views? BTW I don’t know how powerful the people in this video are in other areas.
I guess I would say the reason these guys are being used is because it sells! If you and I sat down and had these conversations and video taped it, no one would be interested in what we say. But you put Driscoll, and Jakes together we know them, and we know they disagree so it’s gonna be a good fight.
I’d love to see and hear some debates on churches doing a traditional or blended service along with a contemporary service on the weekends and the affects or lack of affects it has on that specific church!
My senior pastor is super fat, and seems to be pretty lazy. People talk about it, but never to him. I am on staff, so it is a hard thing to want to bring up…