The Gay Missionary, The Nude Kids Worker, And The Convicted Drummer
He comes to your church.
He is gay and living with the love of his life.
He wants to serve on your missions team to help the sick.
She comes to your church.
She is a B list actress who currently has 2 semi nude love scenes in her upcoming movie.
She wants to teach the 4 years olds on Sunday morning.
He comes to your church.
He’s 21 and fresh out of prison for statutory rape with a 15 year old when he was 18.
He wants to play drums.
She comes to your church.
She is gorgeous but is binging and purging every meal but no one knows.
She wants to teach the 14 year old girls small group.
He comes to your church.
He is meeting escorts 2 afternoons a week but no one knows.
He wants to teach the 17 year old boys small group.
She comes to your church.
She is embezzling money from her corporation but no one knows.
She wants to be an usher.
The problem lies when we draw lines in the sand with peoples sins.
The bottom 3 are already serving in your church.
The top 3 are probably not.
In my eyes the top 3 are probably more apt to serve than the bottom 3 because they are not hiding it.
I know this is a sweeping generalization. But I feel an authentic desire to exist in who you are is much better than the desire to hide who you are.
How can the church help facilitate radical grace while knowing that no ones sin is greater than the other?
Talk to me…
Los
RAIN IT DOWN
“What an inflammatory blog post. I might have to unsubscribe. Homosexuality, nudity, and escorts are bad enough, but you’re going to allow a woman to be an usher. How dare you sir!” – What some folks in my Southern Baptist Church might say.
HA!
This has to be the very best 1st comment on a blog post like this! Awesome!
love it! but so true in some places that it hurts.
LOL! I was about to get on here and blast you for this comment until I saw your main point…ladies have no business ushering…smh
I’m a convicted drummer. Really. 1993. Theft by deception. A very stupid thing to do.
But it wound up leading me to Christ.
Why? Because my girlfriend said, “I forgive you.” She was saved at the time. I experienced true grace. I followed Christ soon after. I married her in 1995.
Our church just suffered a loss when our Executive Pastor had to resign his position because of sin in his life. However, rather than sweep it under the rug and usher him out the back door, it was announced openly and our lead Pastor made sure to tell everybody that the exec Pastor was forgiven and that they were going to be beside him and support him. Again, true grace.
Our Pastor will routinely say, “If you’re looking for a perfect church, with perfect people, go elsewhere. This a church filled with screwed up people.”
When we show people what grace looks like, they are more apt to open up about themselves and rather be the person that is embezzling, is throwing up their meals and is using escort services prostitutes become the people who WERE embezzling, WERE throwing up their meals and WERE using escort services.
I wish every church was like yours sir.
That’s awesome!
The “perfect church” does exist — it just has NO people. More Pastors need to be saying “no perfect people allowed” b/c we all got stuff.
Great post Los!
It’s a tough call, and I don’t think there’s any one right answer. When I moved from volunteering on a ministry team at my church to leading that team, one of the interns and the team captain sat down with me to go over what that would mean. I had to agree to the church’s statement of faith and lifestyle agreement. I read through the lifestyle agreement carefully, and I decided to be honest, if a bit vague. I let the intern know that while I agreed with the statement, I wasn’t there 100% with my life. I’ve been struggling with some of those things that are so easy to hide from others, but I’m getting help, I’m working on it. I was told that no one expected perfection, and that it would be fine for me to lead. To me, the issue is really with the intent, or the heart of a person. Are they willing to change? Are they willing to do the hard work it takes, even for years? Are they admitting that what they are doing is wrong, or do they think it’s fine? I personally struggle more with extending grace to people who don’t care (or don’t believe) that the choices they are making are wrong. When people are sincerely trying to change, to make better choices, to live the life God would want them to, I’m much more forgiving. I know that’s not how grace is supposed to work. I’m working on it. Just wanted to be honest and throw in my opinion.
Yes, are we pursuing the heart of God and letting Him change us to be like Him or are we pursuing the desires of our corrupted natures? True discipleship vs worldly living.
Love the sinner without condoning the sin. Easy to say, but when the rubber meets the road what do we DO?
We are approaching the day it will be announced, “Let us be glad and rejoice and give honor to Him for the marriage of the Lamb is come and His wife has made herself ready.” By His grace are we making ourselves ready to be with Him for eternity?
I was excommunicated when I told the truth. Haven’t been back since. I knew the secrets of my friends who remained and pretended like they were perfect. I know from experience that t’s much better to hide and lie and pretend than to just be up front with your mistakes when it comes to the church. If I had lied I’d still be doing music. Now I doubt I’ll ever be able to again.
Becka,
Thanks for being honest. I go to a baptist church and if anyone there knew that I was on antidepressants and saw a counselor they wouldn’t allow me to volunteer, so I just hide it. I sometimes feel as though I shouldn’t need to hide something that has helped my life so much, but I know, since the pastor and many members have made fun of depressed people and counselors, and people using drugs to control their depression. It is a very hard thing to deal with because I would love to be able to share with others what I have went through and how much medicine and doctors have helped me but I know if I do that I will be looked down upon and shunned. It’s a tough call, and I don’t think I could ever be as brave as you!
Lindsay,
I pray you find a church full of loving people who will not only love you for who you are but help you when you need it. You shouldn’t feel shunned. Sorry on behalf of pastors/leaders who refuse to treat people that way. I promise we’re not all the same.
Lindsay-
You shouldn’t have to hide it. Accepting how God has made you, imperfections and all, and sharing them with others is a way that God can so be glorified in your life. It will also be a healing process for you as well. I pray you can find a body that can be the support you need, and that you can share your authenticity with them.
Lindsay,
This is so tragic! For anyone to say or to imply that if you are on anti-depressants, your faith is not “strong enough” really upsets me. Would that same person deny a diabetic’s need for insulin ?! Depression, should be left to professionals to diagnose/judge. Adding shame to the already wounded heart is tragic and spiritually damaging when found within the church. Unfortunately, it does happen there.
Choose to show grace and forgiveness to those who don’t completely understand, but perhaps you should search for a more accepting church home….? You won’t find a perfect one but find one who unapologetically professes that we ALL fall tremendously short of perfection!! I’m sure this pastor you are referring to has some things of which is not proud. Our transparency and our acceptance of eachothers flaws through the act of mercy (like Jesus demonstrated btw) brings powerful healing. Hold your head high, looking up toward finding peace and KNOW Jesus loves you- especially when you are “down in the pit.”
I’m sorry you had such a horrible experience. I got kicked out of college my last year there because my problems became known by the wrong people. Part of it was that I was stupid, and part of it was that I opened up to someone about needing help. I honestly wanted to do the right thing, I just didn’t get there fast enough for the people in charge.
I don’t know the specifics of your situation. Maybe it’s nothing like mine. But I know how much that kind of rejection hurts, and I’m sorry you experienced it.
What a great post! I love when this issue is so bluntly dealt with! This is something that God has really laid on my heart through my life of being a sinner myself. My prayer is that God will teach us to extend the same grace to those around us that has been given freely to us!
+1,000,000 to this comment! thanks los, for bringing this up!
I am grateful that I shared the post on my page. A good point that I fully agree with is that the leadership team should look at each individuals situation and then decide what is best for the congregation with the information that is given after prayer and consideration w/grace.
Carlos,
This post makes me sad. God sent his Son to die for everyone, including all those people you described. But the reality is evil will work its way into every nook and cranny of the church. Trying to be so politely correct is the compromise that the enemy takes advantage of. Are we to hate them, no. but allow them to lead…no. I hope you wrote this to stir up conversation, but I am really sad to read this.
Politically Correct = Biblically Corrupt.
I think she said POLITELY correct…not politically
I’d have to agree with Vicki here. Love everyone regardless of their lifestyle or sin, but to let them LEAD? Going back to the top 3 here, I’m not sure that they’re all on the same field to judge.
The Drummer? Probably has experienced some life change, headed in the right direction now, and assuming his heart is in the right place – by all means… don’t keep dragging his past sins out in front of him – let him use his gift!
The Actress?
I’m going to assume that her “semi-nude” scenes are in movies not appropriate for the children she wants to teach, and that they’re not going to be watching them. Assuming she’s not acting for porn and is just in a love scene…not sure that it’s really that big a deal, unless it’s a sin to shoot a semi-nude scene. Not really sure what to think of this one, actually.
And, the Gay missionary? I assume that if you’re particular denomination agrees with the homosexual lifestyle, this isn’t going to be an issue. For the church that does not agree with it however, I’m not sure why one would allow a person living an overtly sinful lifestyle it doesn’t agree with, to LEAD others in the church, and set example.
And for the bottom three? I’d hope that once leaders within the church found out about the areas they struggled in, they would come along side of them and HELP them recover.
Great post Los!
Christ was accused of hanging with scum… I’m amazed each time I do this and I talk about Him, that I look around and 10 or more people are listening.
I’m the worst Christ follower that ever lived, in my eyes…
I don’t have an answer for your question… other than trying to stop the church from keeping Jesus safe, all to themselves instead of sharing Him with the ones that really need Him… like me.
“more apt to serve?” hmmm. Strange phrase.
I’m struggling with that phrase, man.
It assumes the church can’t say no to people who want to serve but shouldn’t be.
Of these people who aren’t qualified, who is the least not qualified?!
(The rapist might be the only exception. He may have repented and is just being judged by the church for his past heinous crime.)
How can the church help facilitate radical grace? That’s your question.
By extending grace. By accepting all those people you identified and by loving them enough to show them how God has commanded them to change and to help them through that change.
But not by lowering the standards for who we allow to minister. But not by saying we will take the those living in the least amount of sin to lead us.
“But I feel an authentic desire to exist in who you are is much better than the desire to hide who you are.”
Accepting your identity as a sinner is great but it does not qualify you to serve in a ministry.
Finding your identity in your salvation and running hard from your identity as a sinner is a start. I know we should never forget that sin can trip us, but I think the body of Christ needs to embrace a confidence in our salvation and begin to see ourselves as individuals who are holy as He is holy…Because He says we are.
When some religious dolts in the Bible drew a line in the sand over a specific sin (not their own, btw) Jesus scribbled in the sand with his finger before telling them to stone the woman to death …. as long as the sinless guy threw the first stone. Yet here were are, 2000 years later, still drawing imaginary lines in the sand over other people’s sins. When are we gonna learn?
And I find it interesting that the religious dudes who “caught the woman IN THE ACT of adultery” knew exactly where to find her. Almost like they had been there before. Just sayin’
Sorry, Matt. Didn’t mean to leave this as a reply to your post. Meant to post it as a general reply. Love what you had to say.
I was curious what that was in response to. haha.
Jesus didn’t condemn her, but he also told her to go and sin no more.
Right. Los’s post doesn’t say anything about not wanting those stuck in sin to get free. Leaders who lead well help those who are struggling overcome their issues. Religious abusers tell people to get free before they can serve. So many problems with this mindset …
Obviously care needs to be taken. If someone has been a compulsive thief their whole life, putting them in the finance office might be a mistake. A person with a history of sexually abusing young kids shouldn’t go anywhere near kids ministry. But common sense dictates in cases like these.
But not all situations are the same. I was in a relationship with a 15-year-old when I was 18. (I was a senior, she was a freshman) We were both leaders in our youth groups, but when hormones got involved we made a series of small compromises that led to a big mistake and we ended up being sexually active. When the relationship went south, her parents could have had me arrested. (And threatened to). Would I have deserved it? Technically, yes. However, further research would show that the girl I (technically) raped has now been my wife for almost 11 years, we have three beautiful kids together and we’ve been a part of four church plants and counting. God’s radical delivery and reconciliation of our relationship is an integral part of our testimony and He will continue to use our mistakes as a cautionary tale for those who think fooling around in the back seat is no big deal.
Exactly. Isn’t that the rational response of someone who knew she should have been condemned yet was saved – to sin no more?
Sure. But sin is not always rational.
Neither are leaders, unfortunately.
who says there are people who shouldn’t be allowed to serve? Christ demands that we serve, and loved us when we were still sinners. Can serving Christ lead someone out of sin? I think so. There is a difference in giving someone a position to serve in and giving them positions of influence.
Great clarity on my use of the word serve. Everyone should be able to serve. But not in certain rolls. Great point Hannah.
I think life with God and sin it’s about repentance. It’s true what you say that in our eyes the top 3 are not acceptable to serve in the church as the 3 in the bottom. And that is wrong. But i think there is other thing that’s more important: repentance. I believe that everybody can serve in the church, and serve God, but He is always looking in us for a heart that leaves the bad ways to take his ways. I believe everyone in the examples you gave can serve in the church, by leaving their sins and giving their lifes to God.
We must remember and believe that radical grace not only forgive us from our sins but changes us from the inside out. By experience, i can say that living my own way and serve church and God at the same time it’s not a good combination.
The grace of God wants to reach the most deep and dark place of our heart. That is first and most important than have a way to serve or do something in the church. Yes, we as leaders can allow people serve in our ministry, but if they are living a life that is not accordingly with God’s word, the only thing we will cause in that people it’s more pain and suffering for the future. And yes, our work it’s to live in repentance, and help people to encounter the God that gaves repentance, and heal their lives, and in that path, maybe, they will end up serving God in the Church.
Bro i love your blog and your work!
*Please if my english is wrong, im sorry. I speak spanish.
i just want to add, that in church, and environment of honesty and acceptance and to tell “what im doing wrong” in an environment of grace, to receive help, no mattering if you are new at church or if you are a leader of years, helps to avoid big deceptions and to heal and grow more quickly. Im secure of one thing: what have destroy our churches are the big judgments we made when somebody falls down. That is not our work and never will be. Our work is to help people (everyone, not only un-churched or never-church-leader people) to encounter God and to grow in their christian life, being transformed by the power of God and being born to a new life.
what does it say about me that this post makes me angry. I struggle with these kinds of questions. If I am to hate the sin but love the sinner, how do i separate the two? I got no problem with the usher, but I do have a problem with who is influencing my children. Yet again, perfection eludes me.
It really is a dangerous ground to draw the line in the sand about this. At what point is someone “safe enough” to volunteer in the church? I have seen firsthand people get kicked out of a church because of making bad decisions rather than the church actually helping them recover and experience the Grace that they taught about every Sunday. It is very sad.
Carlos, THANK YOU for posting this and not being scared of what others will think. I recently have seperated myself from the church due to such hypocrisy and “you should not celebrate halloween” or “tattoos dont honor god” or “oh my gosh he said SHIT or DAMN”. It disgusts me with the judging in a majority of churches and makes me not want to be apart of any of it. I feel like I cant be who I really am with out someone looking or treating me different. Christianity will ALWAYS be looked down upon if we continue to have this in the church..or outside of the church
My question to you would be what do you want the church to be? I understand the problem with churches that rail against Halloween and tattoos, etc. Often the church goes overboard and becomes judgmental. But often, churches have a desire to see people meet Jesus and be changed as we are commanded to do in the Bible. Churches are not supposed to let people continue to be who they are just because they don’t want to be harsh or come off as judgmental. If someone is openly getting drunk every weekend, should the church just allow that to go on because they don’t want to be judgmental? Or should they encourage the person to allow what Jesus has done to transform the way they live their life?
As has been mentioned above, there is a huge difference in being “apt to serve” between someone who is proudly living in their sin and existing with who they are than someone who recognizes their sin as sin and is pursuing Christ to help remove their sin. Being a sinner can obviously not disqualify anyone from service, but there are definite times that someone who is not repentant of their sin needs to be treated as an outsider. The Bible speaks of this. It tells us that if someone is told of their sin and they refuse to repent and turn, then they shouldn’t even be someone with who you break bread with. (1 Cor 5:11). Just because it’s uncomfortable doesn’t make it wrong. And especially when you talk about someone who will serve around children/youth. There is a deep responsibility in the church for the leadership to ensure that children/youth are as protected as possible from those who might harm them. I’m not just talking physically either. If a youth small group leader is addicted to porn, he should not be leading high school boys. Anyone in leadership knows that as you lead someone, they begin to look like you. They begin to pick up your characteristics, good and bad. This is why leadership is not something to be taken lightly. Just because someone is “existing in who they are” does not mean we allow them to serve in the church. Existing in who we are is exactly what Christians should not be doing. We should be existing in who Christ is and allowing that to change us. And that goes for everyone, from the pastor that struggles with pride to the man who was just released from prison for rape and desires to change.
Well said…
I am always challenged by these posts, but I fear that we may be dangerously close to replacing one extreme in the church with another. We have been so long the faith of people who have to have it all together and looked down on those who do “sinful” things like we’re better than them. People who struggle have too often been pushed away from the church. However, I feel that we also cannot be allowed to swing all the way over to accepting all because I believe we are called to more than that. We are called to be counter-cultural, compassionate, and to do everything in love. There has got to be a balance in between the two and those of us who are in moments where we are really growing need to help those who are struggling and also live according to a high standard so that we don’t cause others to stumble. I just am tired of extremes and either/or…There has got to be something in between.
Stole the words right out of my mouth.
Er, uh… Keyboard.
Classic Los, and thank you for bringing up hard topics for folks to deal with. I think we have to look no further than the gospel first. The gospel says that Jesus is righteous, he lived the life we couldn’t live, died the death we deserved and raised us up with him to new life. In my personal life, it’s easy for me to live with the first two parts of the gospel and leave it at that. I sinned but Jesus forgave me. But that isn’t the end of the story – he raised me up to new life. The way I live and respond to the gospel is the indicator that I actually know him. Am I going to be perfect, no. Actually far from it. But it’s more about being open and honest even if it gets me excommunicated from my church or even humiliated because Jesus DIDN’T sin and those things happened to him. Jesus puts it this way: when a man finds a treasure in a field he goes and sells everything he has and buys that field. Jesus is worth more than our reputation – he’s even worth more than our lifestyle or sexual orientation. If we have people in our church who are continually living in sin and have no evidence of repentance then we don’t need to be asking should they serve, we need to be asking do they treasure Jesus more than their sin. That’s been the problem since Adam. The same goes for those who aren’t being honest. Why aren’t they being honest? If we say we don’t have sin we are saying that Jesus died for nothing. He doesn’t want to be the person that keeps you from sin, he wants to be your everything. Jesus is the most valuable, precious thing and a relationship with God is available through him. Let’s encourage people to that end.
“do they treasure Jesus more than their sin”
I think that gets at the heart of the issue. And when faced with that question myself, I’m a little unhappy with my deepest, most honest answer.
Dang, just when I thought I had something valuable to add, you captured it.
Also well said…
Yep…our church was more concerned about what would happen financially to them if someone found out that a recovering sex addict/adulterer who is also a good dad to five kids, whose wife is feeling called to stay with him and battle generations of bondage for the glory of Christ was playing guitar for his kid’s Sunday school, or doing set up/tear down for events, etc. They never did check back in to see how the recovery was going even though we are “members”. I’m afraid I still don’t know what to think about the church’s apparent policy of “what we don’t know won’t hurt us, but if you are honest and getting help you are too risky for us financially”. I wonder what sin the leadership is not being honest about? They all seem perfect… hmmm….
PREACH!!!
Once again @loswhit proves to be Routinely Radical and Rarely Redemptive by stirring the sin scale cauldron. Suitable soup for Pharisee banter that radical grace has no taste for!
Gets alot of blog traffic though… So, well done!
Spot on Derek. Spot on.
Careful when judging a man’s intentions. Cynicism is a dark and lonely path.
Good call… Forgive me.
Classic false dichotomy setup. No, the people who are hiding their sin aren’t fit for the ministry. But neither are the people who are open and unashamed about it. Your gay guy is “living with the love of his life?” That shows he doesn’t even view his behavior as a sin. It’s not even like he struggles with the attraction but he’s trying to fight it with God’s help. He’s embracing and normalizing his sin. Don’t give me any garbage about “accepting” that.
The female actor who does nude love scenes is also embracing sin. It shows a mal-formed view of the sacredness of sex. And they’re in an upcoming movie, not some movie she did 20 years ago, but she knows better now. This clearly isn’t something she’s sorry for.
The statutory rape example was clever because the implication was that the sin was consensual. But I refuse to make a pronouncement, because your details were too vague. Legal nit-picking aside, there’s a big difference between a young man who falls into consensual sexual sin with a young woman of approximately his age, and a young man who seduces/rapes another young woman or a woman much younger than he.
+1!
So who is fit for ministry? If a gay couple wants to serve in some capacity at a church that they have chosen to be a part of, are you going to not allow them to serve because they possibly have not come to the same conclusion about sin as you have? Are you going to allow them to possibly miss the opportunity to have community with other believers when that fellowship might help them see the “truth” as you see it? How do you expect them to see your point of view and be saved or changed?
Let me clarify one thing. I am speaking of service opportunity in the church : host team, production, parking, etc.
You don’t seem to have a clear goal with your comments. Do you really think our goal should be to help such people see the truth as we see it, or would you just rather we were all relativistic and didn’t care?
My hunch is you’d really like the latter.
My goal is to understand how you would allow individuals who clearly don’t believe how you believe to have fellowship with you if they choose to? How are you reaching those people? How do you build their trust and how do you get to a point where you can have true influence on their life? You can’t speak for me, and I don’t really appreciate your attitude. I truly want to understand your philosophy on how to minister to individuals that might be tough to love because they are not at the same place spiritually as they need to be. This is life, and we need to remember that the same people who we want to come to know Christ personally might be reading these comments, and we have influence in what we write here.
You’ve got to get rid of the drummer… not because of the rape, but because, well – let’s get rid of all of the musicians.
That way we can praise Christ, instead of our worship team’s fancy shoes and rehearsed prayers.
the issue is less about what people do, rather, whether or not we are striving to be in line with God’s will.
they Gay guy’s sin and the thief’s sin isn’t any worse than anything i do. but if it’s out in the open that someone is living a sinful life and is unrepentant or non-responsive to the idea that their way might not be in line with God’s way then there’s a problem.
i’m not saying that people in that situation can’t serve. i don’t know the answer to that. but i do believe there needs to be very clear, distinct lines drawn on what is acceptable and what isn’t. the pain in this equation comes from the gray area.
the stuff that’s hidden, well, what can anyone do about that?
Everybody’s welcome.
Nobody’s perfect.
Anything’s possible.
Honesty is necessary in any relationship. Familial, romantic, workplace, and even church. Sin is sin is sin. If you’re hiding that sin, you can’t have a completely healthy relationship. I know that nobody is going to be 100% forthcoming about one’s sin 100% of the time, but your past (or even your present) doesn’t mean Jesus loves you less, or that you’re not called to serve any less than I am.
i left out one thought..
i believe in grace, but i believe in right and wrong as well.. it seems in these discussions we sometimes forget the biggest black and white issue of all – those who believe in and accept Christ make it into heaven and those who don’t are going to be in hell.
who’s to say the idea of right and wrong can’t be applied to our Churches?
I’m a shepard of people, of women who have or may be selling their bodies to feed acdiction or their children, of men who belong to gangs, or people who cheat the system to get by, the hurting, the lost. They come to know Jesus. They will bring these pasts to tell a beautiful story.
Paul killed christians, yet what did he do?
Yeah. There’s a difference between discernment and being judgemental. We must create a community in which people can feel safe to let go, to change, to be who they are. To tell the story of redemption and grace.
God bless you Jenny for what you do. I volunteer with a mission where we reach out to prostitutes, drug dealers,etc., and when they come to Christ, they affect their whole circle.
So….answer me this. What about a juvenile sex offender. A child that committed a sexual offense at age 13 and is now been through treatment, off probation is now 17 and if your youth group. Do you let them attend overnight functions, go on mission trips, camp???
What do you think?
This is an issue the leadership at our Church is currently tackling. Where would Jesus stand? The Bible describes Jesus as coming FULL of GRACE & TRUTH. I don’t think this is about balance or about siding on radical grace or radical truth. I believe we are called to be like Christ and to be full of both! We can’t make compromises when it comes to Truth and we can’t make compromises when it comes to Grace. This needs to be evident and how we think, live, act, preach, & create policies. Our desire shouldn’t be which side do we want to be on…but how can we better reflect Christ.
Excellent comment. Thank you, Justin.
I think it is all of these things too….grace, forgiveness, help…but I also feel like as these issues surface in churches where the temptation is about what side of the fence to stand on, the real issue is Healing. I get to serve with my man in student ministry for the past 15 years and have heard huge testimonies from all of these categories. I think healing should happen while being served at the church not while they are serving. I want to be careful not to be trendy just for the sake of the title that comes in front of the sin. I love for our students to hear a real testimony but the story God is writing for that person also should have a turning away from that lifestyle in pursuit of Christ…otherwise it confuses the crap out of students. Thanks Carlos for helping us think this through.
The first things that came to my mind where love and grace.
Very thought provoking post Los. Thanks for sharing. Will be thinking about this one.
I may have missed a comment or two, so sorry if I’m just repeating what someone else already said. It seems to me that we’re missing the point here. While God does view all of our sins as equal, the earthly consequences of our sins range from the minor to the extreme. I believe that for a person to be trustworthy in a position of leadership, they need to live a life that is above reproach. Now, you’re suggesting that the person who hides their sin is no more qualified for ministry than the person who does not hide theirs, and I completely agree with you on that. But, my argument is that neither person is ready for a position of leadership within the church. Volunteering to greet or to help in the parking lot, or something like that I believe should be open to anyone who we do not believe would be a danger to anyone else. However, positions where a person has influence, whether it be small group leaders or missions trip leaders must be filled by people who are living lives based on biblical principles and are prepared for the responsibilities that come with those positions.
Powerful, Los.
i do want to say this–
i don’t know why you chose bulimia as an example and i doubt it was with the intent to suggest that psychiatric disorders are sins, but it could be taken that way. i feel it’s important to stress that while it’s appropriate to consider whether it’s healthy for an individual who’s still in the midst of her struggles to be in such a position, it’s not helpful to label her disorder (or any psych disorder) as sin.
That aside– thanks for this post, we (as the Church) need to hear this message more
Hey man. Good post. As I’ve walked this with a few of our folks, I wonder if there aren’t two different issues running parallel here.
First, the issue of grace…undeserved by all, but freely given by God. Covers everyone. Serving in the church as a sinner (all of us) isn’t necessarily a “grace” issue as much a “leadership criteria” issue.
If your worship leader is in a public (or private, but discovered) sin, we have to view that as a failure in the leadership criteria area. Not grace. He/She receives God’s grace, and hopefully that of the church.
But realistically-speaking, and theories are cute, but we must consider real cultural contexts. Public sin hurts your influence with people, corporately: it’s a leadership problem, not a grace problem.
This is super messy. There is no answer, because the rigid structure of the modern Church creates a necessarily sanctimonious culture with its leadership. It must. Our leaders must be trusted by our followers. No trust, no influence. No influence, well…close the doors.
So, my thought is: we sinners can serve, as long as our sin doesn’t become a distraction to our leadership and influence.
Well said. Except I continue to read comments here calling believers “sinners”. God doesn’t call us “sinners”. He calls us saints. If he saved us from our sin, why would he call us sinners? Paul calls himself “chief of sinners” in 1 Timothy, but was referring to his life before Christ. Galatians 2:17 says the idea of believers being called sinners is preposterous. Do I sin? Yes. Am I a sinner? Not anymore. If we continue to see ourselves as sinners, then we act like sinners. If we see ourselves as God sees us (IN CHRIST, therefore righteous), then we rise to that life IN CHRIST. Romans 6 says we are now DEAD to sin. Sin no longer is our master. We have a choice.
Satan says “Why are you trying to holy, you sinner?”
God says “Why are you sinning my holy child?”
My two cents.
As an ex-Christian (though still holding a great respect and reverence for the religion), I can say that the answers the church provided me for these kinds of questions are a large part of why I fled. The treatment of homosexuals in particular. The bible often mentions homosexuality as a sin in the breath as laying next to your wife when she’s on her period or eating pork. Personally, I was never able to reconcile grace with holiness. Love is the only path I’ve found to grace.
We actually had a similar issue at a church in the past.
To me, its actually simple. Do the top 3 acknolwedge that theyre living in a life of sin? are the repentant?
In the situation we were in, there was no repentance, and thus there was no drummer.
This week I have been reading through the New Testament epistles. I am rediscovering that righteousness is a gift from God that comes through faith in Jesus Christ, not through keeping the Law of Moses or the religious laws of the Church. That being said, we are also called to live a holy life and to put to death whatever belongs to our sinful nature, not in order to make ourselves righteous, but in response to the gift of righteousness we have received. Two of the first items on most lists of attributes of the sinful nature are sexual immorality and impurity. We are instructed to flee and rid ourselves from these things. We are not told to avoid unbelievers who practice such things, but we are told not to associate with anyone who calls themselves a believer but is sexually immoral. The idea being that our disassociation would cause the offender to realize they are living in sin and lead them to repentance.
Randy Johnson speaks the truth because he speaks God’s word and not how he “feels” on the issue. Remember that emotions are deceptive and if God’s word says it than it is truth.
god’s word also says to put do death those who disrespect their parents. I don’t see that happening a lot. That truth you overlook, I guess.
That’s the Old Testament. OLD TESTAMENT. Homosexuality is explicitly handled in Paul.
Is that not in gods word? Oh, I see, OLD TESTAMENT no longer applies. Got it.
Well said.
Grace, love, truth and mentoring/accountability from mature Christians are needed in all six examples. I thank God that our church leadership and members are open about their struggles and fighting against their sins. Personally, I think that we should all wear those “Work in progress” signs to remind each other that we’re striving toward being how God intends us to be. How do we think that we will attract non-Christians if we don’t hang around with them? We all started out as children with high hopes and then took a wrong turn. We need Godly loving correction and encouragement .
I hope that they find it in our church and from me. How about from you and your church?
For me, the only real gauge of whether someone is “apt” to serve is whether or not they are repentant of their sins and actively seeking to cut that sin out of their life. The openly homosexual person who is LIVING with the “love of their life” or the actress who poses nude should not be able to serve because they are open about their sin and THEY SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH IT.
If either of those people was to acknowledge their sin, repent, even privately, and continue on the path to sanctification, then they should be able to serve.
Also, stumbles are inevitable. I don’t think we should kick people of the team for momentarily falling back into their old sin.
It’s posts like this that remind me why I’m glad I found the church I did and why it’s next to impossible for me and my family to find another like it.
Most families are nurtured by most churches. However, most churches require that I abandon my familiy in order to grace them with my presense. Oh well, I’ll cope.
Well, actually it’s mostly the comments in this post that help me better appreciate my own church family.
The “perfect church” DOES exist, and it has people. Lots of them. It even has a man, treated like a deity wearing a pointy hat and wearing robes leading it. Go to any Catholic church and you’ll see people pretending to be perfect. If someone in the church gets discovered for being sinful, or imperfect, the church excommunicates them. They think that this is such an awful thing to happen, but I think that it’s similar to a prisoner being freed, and getting their chains cut off. This excommunication gives them the chance to come to a real church, with real people, with real grace.
I’m confused. Does “not hiding it” make it ok?
The proud, flamboyantly gay man is more apt to serve? I would completely disagree with you.
Is hiding it ok? No, it’s not. It will eat you up. But not hiding it will completely devour you. You somehow in some way come to the delusion that “it’s alright to embrace (sin…(pick your poison)) and serve God.” That’s the biggest lie of this generation, hands down.
When I said “you” it was a general “you,” pointing to whomever would embrace their sinful life and call it ok. After reading it, I felt I needed to clarify that it was not directed at you, Los.
I believe I agree with the sentiments that led to this post, but I struggle to completely get behind it. I don’t see the instances you listed as being so easily comparable. Taking this list as you intend it, to be a list of sinners who may be in your church and want to serve. Are these church attenders or professing believers? If believers, are they living in sin or in repentant obedience? And I do think it’s important to evaluate what service they want to render. Then there is the question of hidden sin. If these sins were known, would they be prevented from serving? The answer would probably be yes. I don’t think it’s appropriate to make a comparison based on the unknown. In both cases, the church does need to be a place of love in which truth is upheld unapologetically, and there is room for broken, repentant people chasing after God who hurt, make mistakes and are many times slow learners (like me). It would be incredible to be a place where people can openly repent and find love and support rather than judgment and banishment.
As I was thinking we should be a place of healing this thought came to me. Healing requires both removal of the sickness and regeneration of the body/mind/spirit. We like picking one or the other, but too often do a poor job or remembering both. Let us also remember that we are not the physician, Christ is. It is His to convict where truth is present. It is His to remove sin where repentance takes place. It is His to regenerate and restore wholeness where the tissue is dead, giving new life. Unless I have come to the place of saying “Who am I?” to this process I am in danger of taking on a role that is bigger than my paygrade. It is only by being yielded to Christ that I begin to see where He uses me in these processes. Many times in ways I never thought possible.
Thanks for wrestling Los, and for bringing the rest of us along on your journey as you wrestle before the Lord in search of truth.
Kirk
Very interesting. That’s tough, but someone with conviction and who has repented, and is actively turning from their sin is one who is apt to serve. An openly sinful one isn’t, and one who is faking it isn’t either. So I guess I’d say neither?
We all struggle, but the Bible does also talk about being disqualified (see 1 Corinthians chapter 9). Sin is no joke, and grace is not something to be taken for granted. I am the first to admit though, that I am not perfect, and it has ONLY been God’s grace that has allowed me to continue to serve in the capacity in which I do. My youth pastor used to say this: “The difference between a Christian (one who has repented) and one a non-Christian, or someone who hasn’t repented is this. When a lamb falls into the mud, it does all that it possibly can to get out, and the Shepherd comes and pulls him out. When a pig falls into the mud, he loves it and unashamedly plays in it.”
I think that’s an amazing picture of the condition of man’s heart. We either are seeking to get out of the mad, showing the true Godly sorrow that 2 Corinthians 7 talks about, or we are liars and have not truly received Christ, because we are choosing to just wallow and play in our sin… we love our sin.
Our hearts can be twisted sometimes though, and God is SANCTIFYING us in the present tense, so none of us are perfect. Anyway, before this comment gets too confusing, here’s some Scripture that I believe captures this all perfectly.
Romans 6:1-14 -
“What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.”
- With Love,
Zachariah
Yep…
Thank you! A perfect response and reassuring to read that some christians out there remain grounded in The Word and not the world.
Praise God for finding this site and loswhit and his family. Think about it. Jesus spoke out against the pharasies and sadducees ( religious ) people of thier time. Now we have the same problem. most goody two shoes are liars. we all do some kind of wrong. Jesus came to save the lost, not the supposed perfect( who weren’t). He says no one is good ,no not one. We need to pray for our church and others who want to change we need to forgive like Jesus did, and learn a new life. No one ( no not one ) is righteous. Let Jesus change us to be more like him. Jesus is about forgiveness and change of the heart. As long as we are given the gift of the desire to change, Jesus does a good work in us.If Jesus forgives then we also need to forgive each other. Now would you let them teach your kids, or is this a banal question? I think we need to forgive and love one another; and pray about it to see if it is true or just another scam using the goodness of christians????? This happens to me a lot and I want to believe in the good in others but sometimes, it is just a scam, and it is what it is. Can’t you ask easier questions???? at least once in a while???? Love in Christ Diana
Great observations. I wonder about all of this as well.
I have attended too many Churches that have that exact mindset. Thankfully Gods grace is bigger than peoples judgements.
God’s holiness should weigh in there somewhere too…
Good post.
I used to subscribe to the “pure church” idea – many, many years ago. I have now been in full time pastoral ministry for 20 years and I have discovered that whenever you get a few hundred people together it is CERTAIN that you will have all of the people described in this post. That’s because people are people – they have problems and quirks and (gasp) even sins. I would much rather have all of those people in my church than drive them away. I would also much rather they felt able to be honest about who they are than hide it and do the “plastic Christian” act. I hope people will accept me for who I am and I am happy to accept them for who they are. I have also lightened up a lot over the years and have come to the conclusion that a lot of things don’t matter as much as we may think they do. For example – the Bible says a LOT more about not judging people, forgiving them, loving them, praying for them, blessing them etc than the 4 verses it has about homosexuality. How come churches drive gays out but welcome judgmental, critical, self-rightoues people with open arms?
I also have begun to have serious doubts about “love the sinner but hate the sin” – where exactly in the Bible does it say that? I have decided to love the sinner and have no opinion about the sin – I am happy to leave that up to God.
Lastly, it seems that all Christians would agree that our salvation is not based on our good works but of Christ alone. Well, we believe that in theory. But when we actually deal with real people, we seem to think it is there good works – or bad sins – that is the deciding factor in things. I have chosen to go with grace.
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
2 Corinthians 6:14
I don’t think anybody said anything about them being unbelievers.
Thanks for your thoughts, Doc. It is great to actually hear how you would minister to those who are broken and in need of a Savior. However, yankeegospelgirl is stuck in her Christian bubble and has yet to provided one way to actually reach the type of people described in the post. But, I guess she has no desire to do so in that her blog states “[she has] zero patience with postmodernists, liberals, and people who pretend to be much smarter than they really are.” (http://southerngospelyankee.wordpress.com/about/) I thought the Bible was pretty specific too in that we should be patient (Colossians 3:12-13). Looks like we all pick and choose which verses to follow
Thanks Andrew.
I checked out her link and it all made sense when I saw her favourite president and preacher, (though for someone who has no patience with postmoderns and intilectuals, I was confused by her choice of favourite author?)
Anyway, I guess what I am saying is that any church with more than 3 or 4 hunderd people probably already does have all of these people in it – the real question isn’t whether we have them, but what we do with them.
It seems to me that there are two choices – develop a culture of SHAME in our churches so that these people will hide what they are doing and pretend to be like “everyone else”. [Jesus called that approach "whitewashed tombs" clean looking on the outside but dead or dying inside]… OR we develop a culture of GRACE where people can be open about their issues, honestly talk to understanding people, and come to a place of forgivness (if the issue is a sin), or healing (if the issue is a dysfunction) or acceptance (if the issue is neither but just doesn’t fit with the Western Evangelical Sub-Culture).
Unfortunatly, manny churches and Christians prefer the ‘culture of shame” option …. don’t ask, don’t tell. I think that harms far more people than it helps.